Is there the concept of ther Unversal Church in the Bible?

[Yeshuafan 10]

I would see that there is, as that Body would be made up of all of the redeemed, as Jesus true Church would be His Bodt, which is ther Church universal.

NOT the Catholic Church way of viewing this!

[Jim_Alaska 2,386]

No! 

Jesus only built one kind of church.

There are those who would teach that the word “church” can mean two different things depending on who is viewing it. Possibly the worst error is the theory that in certain instances the church can mean what is called a “Universal Church”. This error teaches that all the saved make up this Universal Church.         

          It is defined as the universal, invisible church because we supposedly cannot see it in its totality, for it is spread out over the whole world. It is taught that only God can see His Universal Church, but Scripture as well as the original Greek meaning of the word “church” proves that this theory is in error and contrary to Scripture. 

    The original Greek meaning of the word church demands that it be local and visible. Therefore, their Universal Church theory is a perversion of what Scripture clearly teaches. You cannot assemble something that is spread all over the world. You cannot have doctrinal unity because there are saved people in every denomination, all teaching different doctrines. You cannot exercise church discipline, first because you have no idea where discipline needs to be applied.  And second because you cannot discipline another church’s members. You cannot have the same love one for another, or provide for the needs of the congregation because it is not a congregation, it is dispersed world wide. You cannot teach the “same thing” because this supposed Universal Church all believe different things.

          1Cor. 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

[SureWord 231]

33 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

I would see that there is, as that Body would be made up of all of the redeemed, as Jesus true Church would be His Bodt, which is ther Church universal.

NOT the Catholic Church way of viewing this!

1) There's the Church, the body of believers spiritually baptized into Christ from Pentecost to the Rapture.

2) There's the local church, a group professing believers who are members via baptism. Well, should be via baptism and a profession of faith. Not all are immersed. A local church, including an IFB, can contained saved and unsaved members.

3) Then there's "Baptist Briderism" or "Landmarkism" which is a ridiculous teaching that only Baptist churches are the true body of Christ and can trace their origins to John the Baptist an OT prophet who died before our Lord's crucifixion. You need to be dunked in water to became part of "the body". Baptism in Romans 6 is a water baptism although water doesn't always have to be associated with baptism. A man can be baptized with literal fire (Matthew 3:11,12). Some teach re-baptism in order to join their local assembly which I experienced. If you are not a member of a Baptist church (the pastor teaching this doctrine of men is usually is referring to his Baptist church) then you will not be part of the Marriage Supper and I guess will be a doing the dishes. John Wesley will be Billy Graham's busboy.

4) Finally, there's the RCC which is a Satanic counterfeit, although I do believe there are some saved Catholics they just don't understand the liberty they have in Christ. The papacy itself is from the pits of hell and is full of demons. "Catholic" (i.e. universal) here simply means universally full off every devil and foul spirit 

Edited November 24, 2020 by SureWord

[Yeshuafan 10]

1 hour ago, SureWord said:

1) There's the Church, the body of believers spiritually baptized into Christ from Pentecost to the Rapture.

2) There's the local church, a group professing believers who are members via baptism. Well, should be via baptism and a profession of faith. Not all are immersed. A local church, including an IFB, can contained saved and unsaved members.

3) Then there's "Baptist Briderism" or "Landmarkism" which is a ridiculous teaching that only Baptist churches are the true body of Christ and can trace their origins to John the Baptist an OT prophet who died before our Lord's crucifixion. You need to be dunked in water to became part of "the body". Baptism in Romans 6 is a water baptism although water doesn't always have to be associated with baptism. A man can be baptized with literal fire (Matthew 3:11,12). Some teach re-baptism in order to join their local assembly which I experienced. If you are not a member of a Baptist church (the pastor teaching this doctrine of men is usually is referring to his Baptist church) then you will not be part of the Marriage Supper and I guess will be a doing the dishes. John Wesley will be Billy Graham's busboy.

4) Finally, there's the RCC which is a Satanic counterfeit, although I do believe there are some saved Catholics they just don't understand the liberty they have in Christ. The papacy itself is from the pits of hell and is full of demons. "Catholic" (i.e. universal) here simply means universally full off every devil and foul spirit 

I have dealt with those who hold to view 3, but I hold to view 1/2!

[Jim_Alaska 2,386]

8 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

I have dealt with those who hold to view 3, but I hold to view 1/2!

By your own words, both you and SureWord believe in two churches. Christ instituted what he called His church....singular.

[SureWord 231]

On 11/24/2020 at 9:04 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

By your own words, both you and SureWord believe in two churches. Christ instituted what he called His church....singular.

LOL...what?

Apparently, what I said went right over your head, brother.

A Baptist church, any of them, is not the body of Christ. It is where members of the body of Christ, along with those who may not be saved, gather to worship God regardless of what the "original Greek meaning" says. Frankly, I'm surprised you tried using that argument.

 

[Jim_Alaska 2,386]

These words were spoken to the church at Corinth; a single church, not some invisible entity:

1 Corinthians 12:27 (KJV) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

A church is not where members meet to worship; where they meet to worship is a building. A church is the assembly of individual members.

Frankly I am surprised that you, claiming to be an Independent Baptist, do not know that a church is an assembly of people, not a building.

[SureWord 231]

On 11/27/2020 at 1:33 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

These words were spoken to the church at Corinth; a single church, not some invisible entity:

1 Corinthians 12:27 (KJV) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

A church is not where members meet to worship; where they meet to worship is a building. A church is the assembly of individual members.

Frankly I am surprised that you, claiming to be an Independent Baptist, do not know that a church is an assembly of people, not a building.

A church is an assembly of people.

1) The assembly of all saved in Christ in heaven and earth.

2) A group of professing Christians gathered at a local assembly.

A local church can have unsaved people in it. The body of Christ does not have any unsaved in it.

I'm not speaking about any building.

You have to ask yourself, "Are those who have died and gone to heaven still members of 'the church', Baptist or otherwise?" Obviously no but they are part of the "invisible church" baptized into the body of Christ. What we do at the local church, i.e. baptism, worship, church membership, etc. is just an outward testimony of this spiritual reality.

I am an IFBer but I don't take it to a cultic degree teaching that the Baptist Church is "the one, true Church". 

 

 

 

[360watt 25]

Through the bible their is two kinds of church..

 

The local body of Christ. .. which is a community of saved baptized believers.. does not include all redeemed. 

 

Then their is the all redeemed body. 

 

What we have at the moment is only the local body.  All believers are not yet assembled in the heavenly Jerusalem. That is yet future

[Jim_Alaska 2,386]

SureWord, you were most certainly speaking about a building; for you said: "It is where members of the body of Christ, along with those who may not be saved, gather to worship"

Noticeably absent in your reply is any mention of this: "1 Corinthians 12:27 (KJV) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."  This was written to a single church, which you had just said was not the body of Christ.

I had posted this Scripture to refute what you said here: "A Baptist church, any of them, is not the body of Christ."

[Bouncing Bill 74]

On 11/27/2020 at 1:33 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

These words were spoken to the church at Corinth; a single church, not some invisible entity:

1 Corinthians 12:27 (KJV) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

A church is not where members meet to worship; where they meet to worship is a building. A church is the assembly of individual members.

Frankly I am surprised that you, claiming to be an Independent Baptist, do not know that a church is an assembly of people, not a building.

Far too people realize the church is the people and the building only a meeting place. If we meet in the forest to worship, then the church is there in the forest ... or wherever we meet. 

[DaChaser 17]

On 11/27/2020 at 9:57 AM, SureWord said:

LOL...what?

Apparently, what I said went right over your head, brother.

A Baptist church, any of them, is not the body of Christ. It is where members of the body of Christ, along with those who may not be saved, gather to worship God regardless of what the "original Greek meaning" says. Frankly, I'm surprised you tried using that argument.

 

The Church of Christ is the Body of Christ, all of the redeemed, regardless of their local church name/labels!

On 11/24/2020 at 6:04 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

By your own words, both you and SureWord believe in two churches. Christ instituted what he called His church....singular.

Nope, one Church Body, as they are all of the redeemed , and ech saved also part of a local church!

On 11/27/2020 at 10:33 AM, Jim_Alaska said:

These words were spoken to the church at Corinth; a single church, not some invisible entity:

1 Corinthians 12:27 (KJV) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

A church is not where members meet to worship; where they meet to worship is a building. A church is the assembly of individual members.

Frankly I am surprised that you, claiming to be an Independent Baptist, do not know that a church is an assembly of people, not a building.

True Church of Christ members are the saved since day of Pentecost!

[DaChaser 17]

On 11/28/2020 at 4:14 PM, SureWord said:

A church is an assembly of people.

1) The assembly of all saved in Christ in heaven and earth.

2) A group of professing Christians gathered at a local assembly.

A local church can have unsaved people in it. The body of Christ does not have any unsaved in it.

I'm not speaking about any building.

You have to ask yourself, "Are those who have died and gone to heaven still members of 'the church', Baptist or otherwise?" Obviously no but they are part of the "invisible church" baptized into the body of Christ. What we do at the local church, i.e. baptism, worship, church membership, etc. is just an outward testimony of this spiritual reality.

I am an IFBer but I don't take it to a cultic degree teaching that the Baptist Church is "the one, true Church". 

 

 

 

There are saved catholics, Methodists, and we Baptists, as all of us saved by same Lord Jesus and by same Grace!

On 11/28/2020 at 5:54 PM, 360watt said:

Through the bible their is two kinds of church..

 

The local body of Christ. .. which is a community of saved baptized believers.. does not include all redeemed. 

 

Then their is the all redeemed body. 

 

What we have at the moment is only the local body.  All believers are not yet assembled in the heavenly Jerusalem. That is yet future

That would be the Church Universal!

[DaChaser 17]

On 11/28/2020 at 5:58 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

SureWord, you were most certainly speaking about a building; for you said: "It is where members of the body of Christ, along with those who may not be saved, gather to worship"

Noticeably absent in your reply is any mention of this: "1 Corinthians 12:27 (KJV) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."  This was written to a single church, which you had just said was not the body of Christ.

I had posted this Scripture to refute what you said here: "A Baptist church, any of them, is not the body of Christ."

Only the saved are part of the true Church of Christ!

[Ukulelemike 3,829]

I believe the concept of the "universal" church is present in scripture, BUT, I do not believe it will be actually realized until the end, when we are all assembled together under Christ, directly. Since a church must be assembled to BE a church, with order and leadership, the universal church will not fully exist until that time.

[SureWord 231]

5 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I believe the concept of the "universal" church is present in scripture, BUT, I do not believe it will be actually realized until the end, when we are all assembled together under Christ, directly. Since a church must be assembled to BE a church, with order and leadership, the universal church will not fully exist until that time.

The universal church is being built, it's still a church, his body, it's just not a finished building yet (Eph. 2:19-22)

 

[SureWord 231]

On 11/28/2020 at 8:58 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

SureWord, you were most certainly speaking about a building; for you said: "It is where members of the body of Christ, along with those who may not be saved, gather to worship"

Noticeably absent in your reply is any mention of this: "1 Corinthians 12:27 (KJV) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."  This was written to a single church, which you had just said was not the body of Christ.

I had posted this Scripture to refute what you said here: "A Baptist church, any of them, is not the body of Christ."

Where did I say a building in that quote of mine? You must realize people can assemble anywhere. A local church can meet in scuba gear under the Pacific Ocean if they wanted too.

Also, the quote to the Corinthians can apply to the "universal church". It doesn't matter if they are a single church. They are still members of the universal church. The epistle ultimately applies to every believer in any century, Baptist or not.

Again, the "universal, invisible" Church (aka the body of Christ, aka the bride of Christ)  are all those redeemed by the blood of Christ from Calvary to the Rapture. The local church is an assembly of professing Christians located within a certain area who usually meet in a building but can meet anywhere they choose. 

[Jim_Alaska 2,386]

1 hour ago, SureWord said:

Where did I say a building in that quote of mine? You must realize people can assemble anywhere. A local church can meet in scuba gear under the Pacific Ocean if they wanted too.

I quoted where you aid that, here it is again:  "It is where members of the body of Christ, along with those who may not be saved, gather to worship"

Granted, you did not say it was a building, but you also did not say that the assembled members were a church. You did say in the part I quoted that the church was where the members gather to worship, that is called a building.  

[SureWord 231]

The local church is the local assembly of professing believers. It's called "local" because they assemble in your local neighborhood (I know that's not always the case). 

I realize many times we call the building a church but we know scriptural speaking it's just a meeting place for the church.

 

10 hours ago, DaChaser said:

The Church of Christ is the Body of Christ, all of the redeemed, regardless of their local church name/labels!

Nope, one Church Body, as they are all of the redeemed , and ech saved also part of a local church!

True Church of Christ members are the saved since day of Pentecost!

The Church began at Calvary but the abiding Comforter came at Pentecost.

[SureWord 231]

On 11/28/2020 at 8:54 PM, 360watt said:

Through the bible their is two kinds of church..

 

The local body of Christ. .. which is a community of saved baptized believers.. does not include all redeemed. 

 

Then their is the all redeemed body. 

 

What we have at the moment is only the local body.  All believers are not yet assembled in the heavenly Jerusalem. That is yet future

Interesting thought but Ephesians 2:13,14 says the building is already being built. 

Remember, the Church is Christ's body, flesh of his flesh and bone of his bone. That is not something future but a present reality.

Edited December 1, 2020 by SureWord

[Pastor Scott Markle 2,855]

Hebrews 12:22-24 specifically mentions "the general assembly and CHURCH of the firstborn" -- "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

What does this passage reveal about this "general assembly and church of the firstborn"?

1.  The Who - It encompasses those whose names "are written in heaven," including the "ye" who are on the earth in the present time, as per the phrase "YE are come" in verse 22.

2.  The When - It is present tense, as per the present tense verb "ARE come" in verse 22.

3.  The Where - It is in heaven, as per the statement in verse 22, "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY Jerusalem."

Edited December 1, 2020 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Yeshuafan 10]

On 11/24/2020 at 9:04 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

By your own words, both you and SureWord believe in two churches. Christ instituted what he called His church....singular.

One Church, as the true Church is all of the redeemed from various local churches!

[Jim_Alaska 2,386]

2 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

One Church, as the true Church is all of the redeemed from various local churches!

The word "church", by definition is an assembly of people. How do you assemble people from all over the world? You can't.

If you say, as you did "all the redeemed from various local churches", then you are talking about universal church. 

[Alan 3,520]

45 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

The word "church", by definition is an assembly of people. How do you assemble people from all over the world? You can't.

Thank you for the the excellent, logical, and correct, usage of the word 'assembly' Jim.

[Yeshuafan 10]

59 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

The word "church", by definition is an assembly of people. How do you assemble people from all over the world? You can't.

If you say, as you did "all the redeemed from various local churches", then you are talking about universal church. 

The Body of Christ is made up of all of the redeemed, past, present, and future!

[Jim_Alaska 2,386]

15 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

The Body of Christ is made up of all of the redeemed, past, present, and future!

No it isn't. The Scripture I quoted, conclusively proves that the local church is the body of Christ. This Scripture was spoken to the church at Corinth, a single, local church. "1 Corinthians 12:27 (KJV) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."  

When the Holy Spirit inspired Scripture defines it in this manner, and so obvious and plain; I'll take the words of God over yours every time.

[Pastor Scott Markle 2,855]

I fear that this discussion is not distinguishing that which is on the earth from that which is in heaven.

[Ukulelemike 3,829]

On 11/30/2020 at 3:46 PM, SureWord said:

The universal church is being built, it's still a church, his body, it's just not a finished building yet (Eph. 2:19-22)

 

I think that's what I said. 

[DaChaser 17]

16 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

No it isn't. The Scripture I quoted, conclusively proves that the local church is the body of Christ. This Scripture was spoken to the church at Corinth, a single, local church. "1 Corinthians 12:27 (KJV) Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."  

When the Holy Spirit inspired Scripture defines it in this manner, and so obvious and plain; I'll take the words of God over yours every time.

The true Church is the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ, not just local baptists!

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I fear that this discussion is not distinguishing that which is on the earth from that which is in heaven.

Church has the Apostles ikn it as founding fathers, and they were not really part of a local Baptist church!

[Jim_Alaska 2,386]

34 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

The true Church is the Body and Bride of Jesus Christ, not just local baptists!

Church has the Apostles ikn it as founding fathers, and they were not really part of a local Baptist church!

What? The Apostles were the founding fathers but they were not really a part of a local Baptist Church?
They were the very first Baptist Church, the church at Jerusalem.

1Co 12:27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

[Pastor Scott Markle 2,855]

6 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I fear that this discussion is not distinguishing that which is on the earth from that which is in heaven.

Hmmm. Maybe I need to express myself further - The "general assembly and church of the firstborn" does INDEED exist in the PRESENT; but it does NOT exist on the earth.  Rather, it ONLY exists in HEAVEN.

(By the way, I have not said a single thing in this thread discussion about "Baptists" in specific.)

[Yeshuafan 10]

5 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

What? The Apostles were the founding fathers but they were not really a part of a local Baptist Church?
They were the very first Baptist Church, the church at Jerusalem.

1Co 12:27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Think first Baptists historitcaly were in Middle Ages, after the reformation!

[Pastor Scott Markle 2,855]

2 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

Think first Baptists historitcaly were in Middle Ages, after the reformation!

If an individual holds that the present-day Baptists are the "doctrinal descendants" of the Anabaptists (as I do), then historically they existed BEFORE the reformation.

[SureWord 231]

4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Hmmm. Maybe I need to express myself further - The "general assembly and church of the firstborn" does INDEED exist in the PRESENT; but it does NOT exist on the earth.  Rather, it ONLY exists in HEAVEN.

(By the way, I have not said a single thing in this thread discussion about "Baptists" in specific.)

The church of the firstborn does exist on earth. I can't even believe I'm hearing this.

As sure as you and I are here on earth we have also already been spiritually raised again, joined with the body of Christ and seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven (Eph. 2:6).

Ephesians 3:10 -To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Is Paul speaking of the church in heaven or the church on earth in that verse revealing these things? He's speaking of both of the present.

Ephesians 1:20-23

[20] Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Christ is presently head over all things to the church presently (vs 22) not just in the future when we all assemble in heaven.

Christ is presently head of the church, presently as in on earth and in heaven.

The "fullness of him that filleth all and all". 

The body of Christ, i.e. the church, fills the whole universe because Christ fills the whole universe. This is an amazing mystery that Paul stated he hoped we could grasp in Ephesians 3:18.

We are not sitting around waiting for death or the Rapture before we are joined to the church of the firstborn in heaven we are already part of it here on earth we are just sojourning in a strange land presently.

By the way, the "general assembly and firstborn in heaven" is the completed church after the Rapture. The epistle of Hebrews is written to the Jews in the last days (Hebrews 1:2). 

 

[Pastor Scott Markle 2,855]

54 minutes ago, SureWord said:

The church of the firstborn does exist on earth. I can't even believe I'm hearing this.

As sure as you and I are here on earth we have also already been spiritually raised again, joined with the body of Christ and seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven (Eph. 2:6).

I did NOT say that "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" does not include members who are presently on the earth.  Rather, I said that "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" does not EXIST on the earth.  Hebrews 12:22-24 is quite clear, that "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" exists as a part of those that are come unto "the HEAVENLY Jerusalem."  In fact, the first verse that you quoted above also makes this clear.  Ephesians 2:6 indicates that we New Testament believers are presently "made to sit TOGETHER [assembled] in HEAVENLY places in Christ Jesus."  Both passages precisely tell us that this assembly is IN HEAVEN, not on the earth.

I stand in agreement that "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" exists presently, not just in the future.  I stand in agreement that New Testament believers who are presently on the earth are indeed members of that "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven."  However, I contend that the existence of that "general assembly and church of the firstborn" is in HEAVEN ONLY, not on the earth.  The Lord our God Himself defines this "general assembly and church of the firstborn" from His perspective, wherein we are already come unto the HEAVENLY Jerusalem and are already seated together in Christ in HEAVENLY places.

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Pastor Scott Markle 2,855]

54 minutes ago, SureWord said:

Christ is presently head over all things to the church presently (vs 22) . . .

Certainly.

55 minutes ago, SureWord said:

. . . not just in the future when we all assemble in heaven.

But this is wherein you have a wrong doctrinal assumption.  Our assembly in heaven is NOT a future matter.  According to Ephesians 2:6 we New Testament believers are ALREADY, PRESENTLY seated TOGETHER [assembled] in HEAVENLY places.

57 minutes ago, SureWord said:

We are not sitting around waiting for death or the Rapture before we are joined to the church of the firstborn in heaven . . .

Correct.

58 minutes ago, SureWord said:

. . . we are already part of it here on earth we are just sojourning in a strange land presently.

Yes, we ARE already at present members of that "general assembly and church of the firstborn;" however, the existence of that ASSEMBLY and church is IN HEAVEN, not on the earth.  There is NO universal ASSEMBLY on the earth.  There is ONLY a universal ASSEMBLY in heaven (presently, right now).  We are NOT all seated together here on the earth.  We are ONLY all seated together "in HEAVENLY places."

1 hour ago, SureWord said:

By the way, the "general assembly and firstborn in heaven" is the completed church after the Rapture. The epistle of Hebrews is written to the Jews in the last days (Hebrews 1:2). 

False.  The "general assembly and church of the firstborn" existed in the PRESENT when the epistle to the Hebrews was originally written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  ("Ye ARE come.")  Furthermore, the epistle to the Hebrews was written to New Testament Jewish believers "in THESE last days," the days wherein God the Father "hath" spoken unto us, not by the prophets, but "by his Son."  (See also Acts 2:17; 2 Timothy 3:1; 2 Peter 3:3)