Is there the concept of ther Unversal Church in the Bible?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

6 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I fear that this discussion is not distinguishing that which is on the earth from that which is in heaven.

Hmmm. Maybe I need to express myself further - The "general assembly and church of the firstborn" does INDEED exist in the PRESENT; but it does NOT exist on the earth.  Rather, it ONLY exists in HEAVEN.

(By the way, I have not said a single thing in this thread discussion about "Baptists" in specific.)

[Yeshuafan]

5 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

What? The Apostles were the founding fathers but they were not really a part of a local Baptist Church?
They were the very first Baptist Church, the church at Jerusalem.

1Co 12:27  Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Think first Baptists historitcaly were in Middle Ages, after the reformation!

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

Think first Baptists historitcaly were in Middle Ages, after the reformation!

If an individual holds that the present-day Baptists are the "doctrinal descendants" of the Anabaptists (as I do), then historically they existed BEFORE the reformation.

[SureWord]

4 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Hmmm. Maybe I need to express myself further - The "general assembly and church of the firstborn" does INDEED exist in the PRESENT; but it does NOT exist on the earth.  Rather, it ONLY exists in HEAVEN.

(By the way, I have not said a single thing in this thread discussion about "Baptists" in specific.)

The church of the firstborn does exist on earth. I can't even believe I'm hearing this.

As sure as you and I are here on earth we have also already been spiritually raised again, joined with the body of Christ and seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven (Eph. 2:6).

Ephesians 3:10 -To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Is Paul speaking of the church in heaven or the church on earth in that verse revealing these things? He's speaking of both of the present.

Ephesians 1:20-23

[20] Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Christ is presently head over all things to the church presently (vs 22) not just in the future when we all assemble in heaven.

Christ is presently head of the church, presently as in on earth and in heaven.

The "fullness of him that filleth all and all". 

The body of Christ, i.e. the church, fills the whole universe because Christ fills the whole universe. This is an amazing mystery that Paul stated he hoped we could grasp in Ephesians 3:18.

We are not sitting around waiting for death or the Rapture before we are joined to the church of the firstborn in heaven we are already part of it here on earth we are just sojourning in a strange land presently.

By the way, the "general assembly and firstborn in heaven" is the completed church after the Rapture. The epistle of Hebrews is written to the Jews in the last days (Hebrews 1:2). 

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

54 minutes ago, SureWord said:

The church of the firstborn does exist on earth. I can't even believe I'm hearing this.

As sure as you and I are here on earth we have also already been spiritually raised again, joined with the body of Christ and seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven (Eph. 2:6).

I did NOT say that "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" does not include members who are presently on the earth.  Rather, I said that "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" does not EXIST on the earth.  Hebrews 12:22-24 is quite clear, that "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" exists as a part of those that are come unto "the HEAVENLY Jerusalem."  In fact, the first verse that you quoted above also makes this clear.  Ephesians 2:6 indicates that we New Testament believers are presently "made to sit TOGETHER [assembled] in HEAVENLY places in Christ Jesus."  Both passages precisely tell us that this assembly is IN HEAVEN, not on the earth.

I stand in agreement that "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" exists presently, not just in the future.  I stand in agreement that New Testament believers who are presently on the earth are indeed members of that "general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven."  However, I contend that the existence of that "general assembly and church of the firstborn" is in HEAVEN ONLY, not on the earth.  The Lord our God Himself defines this "general assembly and church of the firstborn" from His perspective, wherein we are already come unto the HEAVENLY Jerusalem and are already seated together in Christ in HEAVENLY places.

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Pastor Scott Markle]

54 minutes ago, SureWord said:

Christ is presently head over all things to the church presently (vs 22) . . .

Certainly.

55 minutes ago, SureWord said:

. . . not just in the future when we all assemble in heaven.

But this is wherein you have a wrong doctrinal assumption.  Our assembly in heaven is NOT a future matter.  According to Ephesians 2:6 we New Testament believers are ALREADY, PRESENTLY seated TOGETHER [assembled] in HEAVENLY places.

57 minutes ago, SureWord said:

We are not sitting around waiting for death or the Rapture before we are joined to the church of the firstborn in heaven . . .

Correct.

58 minutes ago, SureWord said:

. . . we are already part of it here on earth we are just sojourning in a strange land presently.

Yes, we ARE already at present members of that "general assembly and church of the firstborn;" however, the existence of that ASSEMBLY and church is IN HEAVEN, not on the earth.  There is NO universal ASSEMBLY on the earth.  There is ONLY a universal ASSEMBLY in heaven (presently, right now).  We are NOT all seated together here on the earth.  We are ONLY all seated together "in HEAVENLY places."

1 hour ago, SureWord said:

By the way, the "general assembly and firstborn in heaven" is the completed church after the Rapture. The epistle of Hebrews is written to the Jews in the last days (Hebrews 1:2). 

False.  The "general assembly and church of the firstborn" existed in the PRESENT when the epistle to the Hebrews was originally written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  ("Ye ARE come.")  Furthermore, the epistle to the Hebrews was written to New Testament Jewish believers "in THESE last days," the days wherein God the Father "hath" spoken unto us, not by the prophets, but "by his Son."  (See also Acts 2:17; 2 Timothy 3:1; 2 Peter 3:3)

[Yeshuafan]

15 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

If an individual holds that the present-day Baptists are the "doctrinal descendants" of the Anabaptists (as I do), then historically they existed BEFORE the reformation.

Which viewpoint do you hold with?

https://www.theopedia.com/baptist

14 hours ago, SureWord said:

The church of the firstborn does exist on earth. I can't even believe I'm hearing this.

As sure as you and I are here on earth we have also already been spiritually raised again, joined with the body of Christ and seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven (Eph. 2:6).

Ephesians 3:10 -To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Is Paul speaking of the church in heaven or the church on earth in that verse revealing these things? He's speaking of both of the present.

Ephesians 1:20-23

[20] Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
[21] Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
[22] And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
[23] Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Christ is presently head over all things to the church presently (vs 22) not just in the future when we all assemble in heaven.

Christ is presently head of the church, presently as in on earth and in heaven.

The "fullness of him that filleth all and all". 

The body of Christ, i.e. the church, fills the whole universe because Christ fills the whole universe. This is an amazing mystery that Paul stated he hoped we could grasp in Ephesians 3:18.

We are not sitting around waiting for death or the Rapture before we are joined to the church of the firstborn in heaven we are already part of it here on earth we are just sojourning in a strange land presently.

By the way, the "general assembly and firstborn in heaven" is the completed church after the Rapture. The epistle of Hebrews is written to the Jews in the last days (Hebrews 1:2). 

 

The true Church of Christ are those in heaven right now and we who are alive here right now!

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

Which viewpoint do you hold with?

https://www.theopedia.com/baptist

Using the terminology of the article above, I would be ranked within the 3rd category - "A continuity of Baptist forms of faith through the centuries."  I would contend that Baptists are to be defined, not by their name, but by their belief system.  As such, I would contend that Baptists historically preceded the Reformation, and that Baptists historically are NOT actually Protestants, since they did not "come out" of the Roman Catholic church.

[Yeshuafan]

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Using the terminology of the article above, I would be ranked within the 3rd category - "A continuity of Baptist forms of faith through the centuries."  I would contend that Baptists are to be defined, not by their name, but by their belief system.  As such, I would contend that Baptists historically preceded the Reformation, and that Baptists historically are NOT actually Protestants, since they did not "come out" of the Roman Catholic church.

I tend to see the Christians in Acts as not being Baptist, but having Baptist like doctrines and practices!

[Pastor Scott Markle]

3 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

I tend to see the Christians in Acts as not being Baptist, but having Baptist like doctrines and practices!

Actually, faithful Baptists will have New Testament like doctrines and practices.  The name Baptist as a descriptive for those who hold to "Baptist like doctrines and practices" is a shortened form of the the name AnaBaptist.  The name AnaBaptist means "rebaptizers," and was coined for them by their opponents (primarily the Roman Catholic Church organization).  Historically the "anabaptists" did not take up this name for themselves.  In fact, for quite some time they declared that the term "anabaptist" (rebaptizer) was false descriptive, because they argued that they only administered the FIRST Biblical baptism to believers, and that the previous "baptism" was NO Biblical baptism at all.  (That is -- You cannot REbaptize those who have never truly been Biblically baptized previously.)

Edited December 4, 2020 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Yeshuafan]

16 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, faithful Baptists will have New Testament like doctrines and practices.  The name Baptist as a descriptive for those who hold to "Baptist like doctrines and practices" is a shortened form of the the name AnaBaptist.  The name AnaBaptist means "rebaptizers," and was coined for them by their opponents (primarily the Roman Catholic Church organization).  Historically the "anabaptists" did not take up this name for themselves.  In fact, for quite some time they declared that the term "anabaptist" (rebaptizer) was false descriptive, because they argued that they only administered the FIRST Biblical baptism to believers, and that the previous "baptism" was NO Biblical baptism at all.  (That is -- You cannot REbaptize those who have never truly been Biblically baptized previously.)

Believe that they were arminians in theology, when did Particular Baptists arise?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

12 minutes ago, Yeshuafan said:

Believe that they were arminians in theology, when did Particular Baptists arise?

Although they were not yet called "Particular Baptists," I believe that Baptists who held to a Calvinistic belief system can historically trace their origins to the rise of Baptists in Great Britain during the early 1600s (as an "outgrowth of English Separatism).  Since I am not Calvinistic in my belief system, I definitely do not trace my Baptist heritage to these Calvinistic Baptists.

[Yeshuafan]

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Although they were not yet called "Particular Baptists," I believe that Baptists who held to a Calvinistic belief system can historically trace their origins to the rise of Baptists in Great Britain during the early 1600s (as an "outgrowth of English Separatism).  Since I am not Calvinistic in my belief system, I definitely do not trace my Baptist heritage to these Calvinistic Baptists.

many of the first settlers that were Baptists seem to have been that though!

[Pastor Scott Markle]

4 hours ago, Yeshuafan said:

many of the first settlers that were Baptists seem to have been that though!

That is true, because many of the first settlers came out of Great Britain.  However, not ALL of them held to a Calvinistic system of belief.  In fact, although a majority of Baptists in Great Britain held to a Calvinistic system of belief, not ALL of them did either.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Pastor Scott Markle

[MikeWatson1]

On 12/1/2020 at 5:50 AM, DaChaser said:

There are saved catholics, Methodists, and we Baptists, as all of us saved by same Lord Jesus and by same Grace!

That would be the Church Universal!

Widest circle = Kingdom of God

Circle within that= Family of God- the triune God, His angels and His redeemed children past present and future

Circle within that= Local body of Christ- an assembly of saved, baptised believers covenanted together to carry out the great commandment and commission with Jesus as the Head. Local and visible.

A believer could have membership to the Kingdom and Family.. but not the body. If they join a local body- they have membership to all 3.

When all believers are gathered in the Heavenly Jerusalem.. it will be a local body of all believers in heaven, still gathered, still visible.

I think the majority of believers mix the Family of God up with the body of Christ.