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Where did Jesus go when he died, hell burning with fire or paradise?


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Jesus did not go to "Hell", the place of the damned, because those there had no second chance-they died in their sin. He went to Paradise, where the OT saints were who had died in faith to God before Jesus' resurrection, to include the thief on the cross.  I believe this would also be the place called "prison". I have had people argue with me about that, saying paradise is a pleasant place, but prison is not. Well, one of the primary things that makes a prison a prison, is that those therein cannot leave of their own will. There are, in fact some prisons that are, in themselves, quite pleasant, with libraries, entertainment, good meals, comfortable accommodations, opportunities to gain an education, etc. But they still can't leave. Thus, though it was paradise, yet it was, what do they call it? A gilded cage, which they could not leave until Jesus arrived. 

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Once again, what does God's OWN Word actually say about this place called "paradise" --

On 7/3/2020 at 10:51 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Now for a moment let us consider the word "paradise" as it is employed in the title of this thread.  Within the King James translation, the English word "paradise" is found a total of three times:

Luke 23:43 -- "And Jesus said unto him [the believing thief on the cross], Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

2 Corinthians 12:4 -- "How that he [the one who was 'caught up to the third heaven' according to verse 2] was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Revelation 2:7 -- "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

So then, what do these passage Biblically teach us about the place called "paradise?"

1.  According to Luke 23:43 "paradise" was the place unto which our Lord Jesus Christ was going immediately after His death.

2.  According to 2 Corinthians 12:4 "paradise" is a place unto which one must be "caught UP."

3.  According to 2 Corinthians 12:2 in context with 2 Corinthians 12:4, "paradise" IS "the third heaven."

4.  According to Revelation 2:7 "paradise" is the place wherein "the tree of life" presently resides.

Seems to me from the actual teaching of God's Own Word on the matter that "paradise" IS heaven.

 

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3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Once again, what does God's OWN Word actually say about this place called "paradise" --

 

I think paradise is now a part of heaven. The English word itself means "park or orchard". Basically, it's the garden of Eden in heaven. So Jesus took paradise to heaven with him when he led captivity captive.

Jesus did not immediately ascend to heaven after his death. Notice also his words to Mary in John 20:17 which I believe had to do with his priestly ministry of Hebrews 9. He spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth yet his soul was not left in hell. My guess is paradise was located in "Abraham's Bosom" which was separated from hell by a great gulf. So the thief on the cross must have entered there first.

 

 

4 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Jesus did not go to "Hell", the place of the damned, because those there had no second chance-they died in their sin. He went to Paradise, where the OT saints were who had died in faith to God before Jesus' resurrection, to include the thief on the cross.  I believe this would also be the place called "prison". I have had people argue with me about that, saying paradise is a pleasant place, but prison is not. Well, one of the primary things that makes a prison a prison, is that those therein cannot leave of their own will. There are, in fact some prisons that are, in themselves, quite pleasant, with libraries, entertainment, good meals, comfortable accommodations, opportunities to gain an education, etc. But they still can't leave. Thus, though it was paradise, yet it was, what do they call it? A gilded cage, which they could not leave until Jesus arrived. 

In theory you could have a paradise (park, orchard) in the middle of a prison. The prison I worked at had a nice "village green" right in the middle of it.

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Perhaps we err in not making the distinction between the body and the spirit. The body of Jesus spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. But His spirit went directly to God upon His death. 

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

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10 hours ago, SureWord said:

I think paradise is now a part of heaven.

As for myself, I KNOW that Paradise is "a part" of the third heaven - because God's OWN Word says so:

2 Corinthians 12:4 -- "How that he [the one who was 'caught up to the third heaven' according to verse 2] was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

10 hours ago, SureWord said:

The English word itself means "park or orchard". Basically, it's the garden of Eden in heaven. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Do you have ANY passage of Scripture that defines the Garden of Eden as "Biblical Paradise"?  (If not, then your statement is human fabrication.)

10 hours ago, SureWord said:

Basically, it's the garden of Eden in heaven. So Jesus took paradise to heaven with him when he led captivity captive. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Do you have ANY passage of Scripture which indicates that Jesus took "Biblical Paradise" (apparently the Garden of Eden, according to your statement above) from some other place "to heaven with him when 'he led captivity captive'"?  (If not, then your statement, at best, is human conjecture.)

By the way, do you have ANY passage of Scripture which indicates that the Garden of Eden was ever removed from the earth and taken to some other place?

10 hours ago, SureWord said:

Jesus did not immediately ascend to heaven after his death. Notice also his words to Mary in John 20:17 which I believe had to do with his priestly ministry of Hebrews 9. 

You are correct; Jesus (body, soul, and spirit - for He was in bodily form in John 20:17) did not immediately ascend to heaven after His death.  However, you are incorrect if you apply this to His spirit immediately upon His death.  Immediately upon His death His spirit was certainly commended into the very hands of God the Father, as per Luke 23:46. (Note: Rightly dividing God's Word of truth requires that we never consider one passage of Scripture as being in contradiction to another.)

10 hours ago, SureWord said:

He spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth yet his soul was not left in hell. 

The reference to "heart of the earth" is found in Matthew 12:40, and in its context simply refers to the grave (as does the reference to "the lower parts of the earth" in Ephesians 4:9).

The reference to Jesus' soul not being "left in hell" is found in Acts 2:31, and in its context also simply refers to Jesus' bodily burial in the grave/tomb.

10 hours ago, SureWord said:

My guess is paradise was located in "Abraham's Bosom" which was separated from hell by a great gulf. So the thief on the cross must have entered there first.

Before making such a "guess," it would first be necessary to Biblically establish two other points:

1.  Is the reference to "Abraham's bosom" in Luke 16:22-23 a reference to a large "place" that carried the name of Abraham's Bosom; or is that reference simply a reference to the location of Abraham's own bosom/chest, wherein/upon Lazarus had been taken to lie?

2.  If "Abraham's Bosom" actually was a large "place" that carried this name, where exactly was that place?

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18 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

As for myself, I KNOW that Paradise is "a part" of the third heaven - because God's OWN Word says so:

2 Corinthians 12:4 -- "How that he [the one who was 'caught up to the third heaven' according to verse 2] was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Do you have ANY passage of Scripture that defines the Garden of Eden as "Biblical Paradise"?  (If not, then your statement is human fabrication.)

Do you have ANY passage of Scripture which indicates that Jesus took "Biblical Paradise" (apparently the Garden of Eden, according to your statement above) from some other place "to heaven with him when 'he led captivity captive'"?  (If not, then your statement, at best, is human conjecture.)

By the way, do you have ANY passage of Scripture which indicates that the Garden of Eden was ever removed from the earth and taken to some other place?

You are correct; Jesus (body, soul, and spirit - for He was in bodily form in John 20:17) did not immediately ascend to heaven after His death.  However, you are incorrect if you apply this to His spirit immediately upon His death.  Immediately upon His death His spirit was certainly commended into the very hands of God the Father, as per Luke 23:46. (Note: Rightly dividing God's Word of truth requires that we never consider one passage of Scripture as being in contradiction to another.)

The reference to "heart of the earth" is found in Matthew 12:40, and in its context simply refers to the grave (as does the reference to "the lower parts of the earth" in Ephesians 4:9).

The reference to Jesus' soul not being "left in hell" is found in Acts 2:31, and in its context also simply refers to Jesus' bodily burial in the grave/tomb.

Before making such a "guess," it would first be necessary to Biblically establish two other points:

1.  Is the reference to "Abraham's bosom" in Luke 16:22-23 a reference to a large "place" that carried the name of Abraham's Bosom; or is that reference simply a reference to the location of Abraham's own bosom/chest, wherein/upon Lazarus had been taken to lie?

2.  If "Abraham's Bosom" actually was a large "place" that carried this name, where exactly was that place?

1) On etymonline. com the ENGLISH root word meaning for "paradise" is a "park, orchard or garden of Eden".

2) Do you think the garden of Eden is still on the Earth? If not then it was either destroyed or removed. 

3) Did Jesus lead "captivity captive"? If he did were they already in heaven when he led them?

4) Yes, Jesus commended his "spirit" (small "s" indicating human spirit) to the Father but does this mean he went straight to heaven? How or when did he preached to the "spirits in prison"? No human conjecture, please. Oh, by the way, Jesus was already in heaven the whole time he was on earth (John 3:13).

5) So hell is now just the grave?

6) So Lazarus could see all the way from heaven down to the rich man in hell (the grave?) burning in the flames (of the grave)? Can people in heaven see people in hell or even the grave? 

7) Is Luke 16:19-31 just a parable?

Your Calvinist approach to the Gospels and O.T. have become a stumbling block for you.

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1 hour ago, SureWord said:

1) On etymonline. com the ENGLISH root word meaning for "paradise" is a "park, orchard or garden of Eden".

Indeed, the English word "paradise" is often used for the Garden of Eden. But that is NOT the question. The question is whether God the Holy Spirit ever inspired such a usage in the Holy Scriptures.  If you use common human usage as your argument, then common human usage is your authority; but a sad (and unsound) authority it is for Biblical doctrine.

1 hour ago, SureWord said:

2) Do you think the garden of Eden is still on the Earth? If not then it was either destroyed or removed. 

Destroyed in the Flood.

1 hour ago, SureWord said:

3) Did Jesus lead "captivity captive"? If he did were they already in heaven when he led them?

Where does God's Word indicates that "captivity" is a "them"?  Actually, in His resurrection our Lord Jesus Christ took the captivity of death itself captive.  Now the power of death and hell are in His hands.

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

4) Yes, Jesus commended his "spirit" (small "s" indicating human spirit) to the Father but does this mean he went straight to heaven? 

Yes, this means that His spirit went straight into the Father's hands in heaven.

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

How or when did he preached to the "spirits in prison"? No human conjecture, please.

This question is a reference to 1 Peter 3:18-20 -- "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Herein 1 Peter 3:19 actually tells us HOW our Lord Jesus Christ preached unto "the spirits in prison" when it uses the phrase "BY WHICH ALSO he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."  This phrase "by which also" employs the pronoun "which," and grammatically the antecedent for this pronoun in this context is found in the immediately preceding prepositional phrase, "by the Spirit."  The word "Spirit" in that prepositional phrase contains the capital "S," indicating a reference to the Person of the Holy Spirit.  Thus our Lord Jesus Christ did not preach unto the "spirits in prison" by His own personal presence per se, but BY the Person of the Holy Spirit.

When did our Lord Jesus Christ preach unto these "spirits in prison" by the Person of the Holy Spirit?  First, we must ask -- Who are these "spirits in prison?"  Again, the passage itself gives answer -- They are those "which sometime [in past time] were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah."  This is a fairly clear reference to Genesis 6:1-13.  Who are they?  They are all of the disobedient during the time of Noah, that is -- ALL of humanity alive on the earth at that time except Noah and his family.  When were they disobedient?  During that period of time wherein "the longsuffering of God waited during the time of Noah" as Noah was building the ark.  It is that 120 years to which the Lord God made reference in Genesis 6:3.  Where are these disobedient ones now?  Having perished in the flood, they are now in the "prison" punishment and torment of hell.  How did our Lord Jesus Christ preach unto them?  By the striving of His Holy Spirit as referenced in Genesis 6:3, as per 1 Peter 3:19.  So then, when did our Lord Jesus Christ preach unto them by the striving of His Holy Spirit?  During the 120 years of the Lord God's longsuffering until the destruction of the flood.

(No human conjecture necessary. Just a comparing of Scripture to Scripture.)

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

Oh, by the way, Jesus was already in heaven the whole time he was on earth (John 3:13).

Indeed, as per our Lord Jesus Christ's own report.

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

5) So hell is now just the grave?

The word "hell" in the King James translation is used both for the grave and for the eternal place of God's judgment upon the wicked.  This is so because the basic meaning of the English word "hell" is "the place of the dead."  Thus it is necessary to contextually discern which of these TWO meanings is the case in any given passage of Scripture.  To simply assume one of the meanings without giving it contextual consideration is NOT rightly dividing God's Word of truth.

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

6) So Lazarus could see all the way from heaven down to the rich man in hell (the grave?) burning in the flames (of the grave)? Can people in heaven see people in hell or even the grave? 

 First, your sarcastic usage of "the grave" in reference to our Lord's account in Luke 16:19-31 is false.  The context of Luke 16:19-31 indicates that the word "hell" in this context is a reference to the eternal place of God's judgment upon the wicked.  This can be discerned through the descriptive reference to torments and flames in Luke 16:23-25, 28.

Second, you ask - Can people in heaven see people in hell?  What is the answer of Revelation 14:9-11 -- "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone IN THE PRESENCE OF the holy angels, and IN THE PRESENCE OF the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

7) Is Luke 16:19-31 just a parable?

No.

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

Your Calvinist approach to the Gospels and O.T. have become a stumbling block for you.

And now I laugh; because anyone who actually knows me, knows that the "Calvinist" accusation does not fit me at all.  I am a ZERO point Calvinist.  Indeed, I am a firm (and even sometimes, fierce) opponent of Calvinism.  (Yet I do understand the "political" ploy of making such a reference, in order to "color" your opponent's viewpoint with a "negative brush" by lumping that opponent in with a group that is viewed by the audience in the negative.)  

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For all who may be following in the audience,

A number of times in this thread discussion I have asserted that the basic meaning of the English word "hell" is "the place of the dead," and that it includes two possible meanings -- (1) the grave or (2) the place of eternal judgment for the wicked.  

Allow me to present the following evidence for the assertion.  In Noah Webster's dictionary of 1828 (facsimile edition), we find seven definitions for the English word "hell."  The first two of these definitions are as follows:

1. The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death. Matthew 10. Luke 12.
2. The place of the dead, or of souls after death; the lower regions, or the grave; called in Hebrew, sheol, and by the Greeks, hades. Psalm 16. Jonah 2.

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2 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  Luke 23:43 answers that question beyond any doubt, as it's Jesus' own words. He went to the 'paradise' area of hades. His suffering was finished the instant His spirit left His human body.

Well, you are both correct and incorrect -

According to our Lord's own words in Luke 23:43, He most certainly DID go to "paradise."

However, our Lord's own words do NOT include the indication that this "paradise" was some "area of hades."  In fact, God's OWN Word in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 indicates that "Biblical paradise" and the "the Third Heaven" are to be equated with one another.

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On 10/15/2020 at 9:18 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Well, you are both correct and incorrect -

According to our Lord's own words in Luke 23:43, He most certainly DID go to "paradise."

However, our Lord's own words do NOT include the indication that this "paradise" was some "area of hades."  In fact, God's OWN Word in 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 indicates that "Biblical paradise" and the "the Third Heaven" are to be equated with one another.

How, then, did those of the OT ascend to the third Heaven without the benefit of the blood of Christ having cleansed them? If they had all ascended to Heaven, there was no need for Jesus to die for anyone, them or us, if we could make it on our own.

As well, how do we see this conversation between the rich man burning in torments of hell, and Abraham? 

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17 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

How, then, did those of the OT ascend to the third Heaven without the benefit of the blood of Christ having cleansed them?

Who ever said that Old Testament believers "ascended to the third Heaven without the benefit of the blood of Christ having cleansed them"?  I certainly have never said any such thing.  In fact, no believer ever ascends to Heaven apart from the shed blood and sacrificial death of our Savior Jesus the Christ.

17 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

If they had all ascended to Heaven, there was no need for Jesus to die for anyone, them or us, if we could make it on our own.

This is a false statement.  The ONLY way of salvation for any human sinner is by means of Christ's death.  Indeed, His death and resurrection were absolutely necessary; for no human sinner can "make it" on his or her own.

But then your response will be that our Savior Jesus the Christ did not actually die until the conclusion of the Old Testament period, which is certainly a historically accurate fact.  Thus you will contend that Christ's blood and death could not be applied to Old Testament believers until its historical reality, and thus they could not enter Heaven until that application occurred.  However, I will contend that GOD'S DIVINE perspective is different than the strict historically human perspective.  I would NOT contend this simply on my own conjecture.  Rather, I would contend this based upon an actual statement of GOD'S OWN WORD; for in Revelation 13:8 God's Word states, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."  According to this statement of God's OWN Word, our Savior Jesus the Christ, the Lamb of God, was slain FROM the very foundation/founding of the world.  Yet we know that this is not in accord with the historically human perspective, as per the very revelation of God's Word.  Thus we conclude that this must be in accord with the eternally divine perspective.  Indeed, the Lord God of heaven and earth could apply that which was a CERTAIN REALITY from His eternally divine perspective, even though it had not yet occurred in the historically human perspective.

17 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

As well, how do we see this conversation between the rich man burning in torments of hell, and Abraham? 

I am sorry, for I do not quite understand your question.  I am not quite certain what you mean by the phrase, "How do we see this conversation."  I am not sure what you mean by the word "see."

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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On 10/27/2020 at 8:09 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Who ever said that Old Testament believers "ascended to the third Heaven without the benefit of the blood of Christ having cleansed them"?  I certainly have never said any such thing.  In fact, no believer ever ascends to Heaven apart from the shed blood and sacrificial death of our Savior Jesus the Christ.

This is a false statement.  The ONLY way of salvation for any human sinner is by means of Christ's death.  Indeed, His death and resurrection were absolutely necessary; for no human sinner can "make it" on his or her own.

But then your response will be that our Savior Jesus the Christ did not actually die until the conclusion of the Old Testament period, which is certainly a historically accurate fact.  Thus you will contend that Christ's blood and death could not be applied to Old Testament believers until its historical reality, and thus they could not enter Heaven until that application occurred.  However, I will contend that GOD'S DIVINE perspective is different than the strict historically human perspective.  I would NOT contend this simply on my own conjecture.  Rather, I would contend this based upon an actual statement of GOD'S OWN WORD; for in Revelation 13:8 God's Word states, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."  According to this statement of God's OWN Word, our Savior Jesus the Christ, the Lamb of God, was slain FROM the very foundation/founding of the world.  Yet we know that this is not in accord with the historically human perspective, as per the very revelation of God's Word.  Thus we conclude that this must be in accord with the eternally divine perspective.  Indeed, the Lord God of heaven and earth could apply that which was a CERTAIN REALITY from His eternally divine perspective, even though it had not yet occurred in the historically human perspective.

I am sorry, for I do not quite understand your question.  I am not quite certain what you mean by the phrase, "How do we see this conversation."  I am not sure what you mean by the word "see."

Perhaps this is a situation where we think we're talking about the same thing, but we aren't.

When Jesus died, He went and preached to the spirits in prison: where was prison? Was it the same place as where Abraham and Lazarus and all OT saints went after they died, before Christ shed His blood?  See, in my understand, that is where they were, that was prison, but it was also paradise, the same paradise Jesus said that the thief killed next to Him would be with Jesus-it could not mean any aspect of the third heaven, though, because Jesus had to die and resurrect and bring His blood before the father to fully pay the sin debt-this is why Jesus had to ascend to His Father right after His resurrection, I would believe, to make the blood offering in Heaven to pay the debt. 

So, all the OT saints waited there in paradise/prison, for Jesus. Why would paradise also be called prison? because anything beautiful can still be a prison if you cannot leave it. 

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1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

Perhaps this is a situation where we think we're talking about the same thing, but we aren't.

When Jesus died, He went and preached to the spirits in prison: where was prison? Was it the same place as where Abraham and Lazarus and all OT saints went after they died, before Christ shed His blood?  See, in my understand, that is where they were, that was prison, but it was also paradise, the same paradise Jesus said that the thief killed next to Him would be with Jesus-it could not mean any aspect of the third heaven, though, because Jesus had to die and resurrect and bring His blood before the father to fully pay the sin debt-this is why Jesus had to ascend to His Father right after His resurrection, I would believe, to make the blood offering in Heaven to pay the debt. 

So, all the OT saints waited there in paradise/prison, for Jesus. Why would paradise also be called prison? because anything beautiful can still be a prison if you cannot leave it. 

Genesis 39:20-23

First time the word "prison" is used in the bible (law of first mention). Joseph was in prison but God was with him, blessed and prospered him, gave him favor in the eyes of his jailer who entrusted him with authority within the prison but he still was a captive.

Edited by SureWord
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20 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

When Jesus died, He went and preached to the spirits in prison: where was prison? Was it the same place as where Abraham and Lazarus and all OT saints went after they died, before Christ shed His blood? 

This is a reference to 1 Peter 3:18-20 -- "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Let us take notice of that which verse 19 says and that which it does NOT say.  It says -- "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."  It does NOT say -- "When he died, he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."  Adding to the precise wording of Scripture is always problematic.

So, what do we learn about this preaching by our Lord from this passage?  I have answered in a previous posting of this thread discussion as follows:

On 9/25/2020 at 2:33 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Herein 1 Peter 3:19 actually tells us HOW our Lord Jesus Christ preached unto "the spirits in prison" when it uses the phrase "BY WHICH ALSO he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."  This phrase "by which also" employs the pronoun "which," and grammatically the antecedent for this pronoun in this context is found in the immediately preceding prepositional phrase, "by the Spirit."  The word "Spirit" in that prepositional phrase contains the capital "S," indicating a reference to the Person of the Holy Spirit.  Thus our Lord Jesus Christ did not preach unto the "spirits in prison" by His own personal presence per se, but BY the Person of the Holy Spirit.

When did our Lord Jesus Christ preach unto these "spirits in prison" by the Person of the Holy Spirit?  First, we must ask -- Who are these "spirits in prison?"  Again, the passage itself gives answer -- They are those "which sometime [in past time] were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah."  This is a fairly clear reference to Genesis 6:1-13.  Who are they?  They are all of the disobedient during the time of Noah, that is -- ALL of humanity alive on the earth at that time except Noah and his family.  When were they disobedient?  During that period of time wherein "the longsuffering of God waited during the time of Noah" as Noah was building the ark.  It is that 120 years to which the Lord God made reference in Genesis 6:3.  Where are these disobedient ones now?  Having perished in the flood, they are now in the "prison" punishment and torment of hell.  How did our Lord Jesus Christ preach unto them?  By the striving of His Holy Spirit as referenced in Genesis 6:3, as per 1 Peter 3:19.  So then, when did our Lord Jesus Christ preach unto them by the striving of His Holy Spirit?  During the 120 years of the Lord God's longsuffering until the destruction of the flood.

Thus the "spirits in prison" are NOT Old Testament believers, but are the disobedient and unbelieving who died during the time of Noah and through the judgment of the flood.  Thus the "prison" is indeed that place of their eternal judgment and torment under the wrath of God, the place called hell.  Thus our Lord Jesus Christ did NOT preach to them by His own personal presence, but as 1 Peter 3:19 directly reveals, by the person of the Holy Spirit.  

____________________________________

20 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

It could not mean any aspect of the third heaven, though, because Jesus had to die and resurrect and bring His blood before the father to fully pay the sin debt-this is why Jesus had to ascend to His Father right after His resurrection, I would believe, to make the blood offering in Heaven to pay the debt. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Where does God's Word teach us that our Savior Jesus the Christ HAD to historically "die and resurrect and bring His blood before the Father to fully pay the sin debt" BEFORE any believer could enter Heaven?  I DO INDEED believe that His death, His resurrection, and His blood offering are factually necessary for any lost sinner's salvation.  Thus I am NOT asking where God's Word teaches us that these things had to be a FACT of reality, and thus had to actually occur at some time in actual history.  Rather, I am asking where God's Word teaches us that from God's divine perspective He could not accept any believer's salvation as complete UNTIL these things actually happened in human history.  

In addition, I would ask for you to explain your understanding of the teaching in Revelation 13:8 that our Savior Jesus the Christ as the Lamb of God was "slain FROM the foundation of the world."

(Note: Throughout this thread discussion I am finding that the same arguments and ideas are being presented over and over again.  Even though I have handled various of these arguments and ideas through actual grammatical and Biblical exegesis, the same arguments and ideas are repeated without anyone actually responding to the actual exegesis that I have presented.)

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On 10/28/2020 at 1:03 PM, Ukulelemike said:

So, all the OT saints waited there in paradise/prison, for Jesus. Why would paradise also be called prison? because anything beautiful can still be a prison if you cannot leave it. 

Some further thoughts:

1.  1 Peter 3:19-20 does NOT apply the word "prison" in relation to Old Testament believers, but only to the disobedient and unbelieving of Noah's day.

2.  I am NOT aware of ANY Scriptural passage that calls "paradise" a "prison."

3.  If your definition of a "prison" is accurate, then Heaven at present is also a "prison" for all of the believing dead, since they cannot leave it of their own free will.
 

On 10/28/2020 at 2:29 PM, SureWord said:

Genesis 39:20-23

First time the word "prison" is used in the bible (law of first mention). Joseph was in prison but God was with him, blessed and prospered him, gave him favor in the eyes of his jailer who entrusted him with authority within the prison but he still was a captive.

Concerning this passage (and your usage of "the law of first mention"), it would also reveal that "prison" is a place of punishment for criminals, since Joseph was placed there because he was condemned as a criminal (whether falsely or not), and since he was placed there as a form of punishment for his (supposed) crime.  Thus "prison" is not simply a place of "captivity," but is more fully a place of captivity as punishment for a crime.  Indeed, this is precisely my understanding concerning the word "prison" in 1 Peter 3:19-20 - since the passage specifically applies it to those who "were disobedient . . . in the days of Noah," who thus were destroyed in the flood, and who thus were cast into the "prison" of God's eternal wrath and judgment for their sinful disobedience (crime).

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4 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  We see from Jesus' parable of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus that the temporary abode of the souls of the dead is divided into areas called 'Abraham's bosom' or 'paradise', & an area called 'torments'. Jesus plainly said He & the repentant thief would be in PARADISE that day.

We see no such thing.  

1.  Our Lord's account in Luke 16:19-31 is NOT a parable.

2.  In our Lord's account of Luke 16:19-31, He never said anything about a "temporary abode of the souls of the dead."  That is your addition to the account.

3.  In our Lord's account of Luke 16:19-31, He never once used the name "Paradise" for anything in the account.  That is also your addition to the account.

4.  It is uncertain that in our Lord's account of Luke 16:19-31 He employed the phrase "Abraham's bosom" as the official name for a "place."  It is quite possible that in our Lord's account of Luke 16:19-31 He was simply using the phrase "Abraham's bosom" actually to refer unto Abraham's own bosom/chest, in/upon which Lazarus was laying.  (It may be noticed that when describing the place wherein Abraham and Lazarus were located, our Lord never indicated that Abraham was in a place that was named Abraham's bosom.  In fact, the descriptive reads as follows -- "And seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his [Abraham's] bosom [chest]."

5.  In our Lord's account of Luke 16:19-31, He employed the term "hell" for the place wherein the rich man was after his death; but never employed the term "hell" for the place wherein Abraham and Lazarus were.  In fact, in our Lord's account of Luke 16:19-31, He did NOT employ the term "torments" as the name for a place, but as a descriptive of the place that He called "hell."  ("And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments . . . .)

5.  It is also quite possible that both Abraham and Lazarus (who was laying in/upon Abraham's bosom) were in heaven, with a "great gulf" fixed between heaven and hell (the place of torment); for Revelation 14:10 does indeed indicate that the torments of those in hell can be observed by the inhabitants of heaven.  ("And he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone IN THE PRESENCE of the holy angels, and IN THE PRESENCE of the Lamb.")

(Note: Making claims for a passage of Scripture that are not actually found in that passage of Scripture is NOT "rightly dividing the word of truth.")

On the other hand, it is completely correct that "Jesus plainly said [in Luke 23:43] He and the repentant thief would be in PARADISE that day."  Furthermore, 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 indicates that "the third Heaven" and "Paradise" are equivalent.

(Again I note: Throughout this thread discussion I am finding that the same arguments and ideas are being presented over and over again.  Even though I have handled various of these arguments and ideas through actual grammatical and Biblical exegesis, the same arguments and ideas are repeated without anyone actually responding to the actual exegesis that I have presented.  Repetition of falsehood does not turn that falsehood into truth.)

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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17 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Our Lord's account in Luke 16:19-31 is NOT a parable.

I appreciate your observation and bringing out that the account in Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable. The Jehovah's Witnesses try and sneak this teaching in a conversation every time they get the chance. 

As one example I will use the following quote from the Jehovah's Witnesses book, 'Let God Be True,. in the 1946 edition.' On page 78 we read, "(Luke 16:19-31) Doesn't this show that there is a fiery hell with conscious people in it? Not at all; for this is a parable, and a parable is a symbolic and figurative statement that pictures some reality."

Edited by Alan
added: is not a parable
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On 11/11/2020 at 7:46 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

We see no such thing.  

1.  Our Lord's account in Luke 16:19-31 is NOT a parable.
 

Why is it not a parable? Do we assume parables are not actual, true events? Do we assume Jesus made up just-so stories to make His point? That the God of creation, who knows every event in history, and beyond, in perfect detail, needs to make up stories to make His points? 

Or does He use actual events, with actual people, to teach eternal truths, every time? Why would a story like the woman who lost one of ten coins, be less an actual event, than Lazarus and the rich man? A parable is simply an earthly story with a heavenly lesson to it-that doesn't mean they aren't true and factual, as well.

18 hours ago, Alan said:

I appreciate your observation and bringing out that the account in Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable. The Jehovah's Witnesses try and sneak this teaching in a conversation every time they get the chance. 

As one example I will use the following quote from the Jehovah's Witnesses book, 'Let God Be True,. in the 1946 edition.' On page 78 we read, "(Luke 16:19-31) Doesn't this show that there is a fiery hell with conscious people in it? Not at all; for this is a parable, and a parable is a symbolic and figurative statement that pictures some reality."

When the JW's say this, they miss the fact that Paul, in Galatians, used an actual, historical event, with actual, historic people, as an allegory to teach a biblical truth, being the story of Hagar and Ishmael, and Sarah and Isaac. Being used as allegories didn't change the fact that they were true people and events.

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If we define "parable" as a story of illustration or allegory, then the details of that story (whether historically factual or illustratively fictional) must represent some principle of truth that is DIFFERENT (in some way) than the direct information of the "parable." 

So then, if our Lord's account in Luke 16:19-31 is parabolic, what principle(s) of truth is it illustrating/allegorizing that is/are DIFFERENT than the direct information of the parable?

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1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

If we define "parable" as a story of illustration or allegory, then the details of that story (whether historically factual or illustratively fictional) must represent some principle of truth that is DIFFERENT (in some way) than the direct information of the "parable." 

So then, if our Lord's account in Luke 16:19-31 is parabolic, what principle(s) of truth is it illustrating/allegorizing that is/are DIFFERENT than the direct information of the parable?

Since the direct context of the speaking of the story, was in response to the Pharisees deriding Jesus due to their covetousness, it would seem to me that it was given to show that, like the rich man, who probably was a regular visitor to the temple, and seen as a pillar of the community, like them, went to hell, while the kind of person they would look down upon, the beggar, went to paradise, without the ability to go and bring sacrifices to the temple, and was viewed as less than human, particularly to the Pharisees who were covetous and loved to serve mammon, the parable would have been a testimony against them.

They loved riches, like the rich man, but his love for riches only brought damnation, and so it would them, if they did learn to reject such and simply trust in God, as did Lazarus.

 

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2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Since the direct context of the speaking of the story, was in response to the Pharisees deriding Jesus due to their covetousness, it would seem to me that it was given to show that, like the rich man, who probably was a regular visitor to the temple, and seen as a pillar of the community, like them, went to hell, while the kind of person they would look down upon, the beggar, went to paradise, without the ability to go and bring sacrifices to the temple, and was viewed as less than human, particularly to the Pharisees who were covetous and loved to serve mammon, the parable would have been a testimony against them.

They loved riches, like the rich man, but his love for riches only brought damnation, and so it would them, if they did learn to reject such and simply trust in God, as did Lazarus.

So, to some extent the account (illustration) of Luke 16:19-31 was to illustrate the point of Luke 16:15?  Seems contextually reasonable.  I still would prefer simply to call it an illustrative account/record than a "parable," simply because most people view the definition of "parable" as indicating a "fictional" illustration to make a spiritual point.  Regardless of the descriptive "title" that we give to this account, I would contend that it was a HISTORICALLY FACTUAL event/account.

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56 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So, to some extent the account (illustration) of Luke 16:19-31 was to illustrate the point of Luke 16:15?  Seems contextually reasonable.  I still would prefer simply to call it an illustrative account/record than a "parable," simply because most people view the definition of "parable" as indicating a "fictional" illustration to make a spiritual point.  Regardless of the descriptive "title" that we give to this account, I would contend that it was a HISTORICALLY FACTUAL event/account.

Generally, so would I, but it would serve as a defense against the JW's seeking to make what Jesus said somehow a piece of fiction, while still agreeing its a parable. Jesus spoke no fiction, and the lack of outrage by the Jews against this "mythical" place called Hell, as the JW's see it, shows that they fully understood what it was, and they agreed with its existence.

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On 7/2/2020 at 3:49 PM, DaChaser said:

Cults and others have read that use of Hell as being the standard meaning of place of judgement, but the real meaning was the grave!

There are certain areas where it should be!

That is JW teachig.  If you read |Herodotus. you will see that the Greeks believed Shrol was where the devil lived.

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