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Where did Jesus go when he died, hell burning with fire or paradise?


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Jesus did not go to "Hell", the place of the damned, because those there had no second chance-they died in their sin. He went to Paradise, where the OT saints were who had died in faith to God before Jesus' resurrection, to include the thief on the cross.  I believe this would also be the place called "prison". I have had people argue with me about that, saying paradise is a pleasant place, but prison is not. Well, one of the primary things that makes a prison a prison, is that those therein cannot leave of their own will. There are, in fact some prisons that are, in themselves, quite pleasant, with libraries, entertainment, good meals, comfortable accommodations, opportunities to gain an education, etc. But they still can't leave. Thus, though it was paradise, yet it was, what do they call it? A gilded cage, which they could not leave until Jesus arrived. 

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Once again, what does God's OWN Word actually say about this place called "paradise" --

On 7/3/2020 at 10:51 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Now for a moment let us consider the word "paradise" as it is employed in the title of this thread.  Within the King James translation, the English word "paradise" is found a total of three times:

Luke 23:43 -- "And Jesus said unto him [the believing thief on the cross], Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."

2 Corinthians 12:4 -- "How that he [the one who was 'caught up to the third heaven' according to verse 2] was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Revelation 2:7 -- "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

So then, what do these passage Biblically teach us about the place called "paradise?"

1.  According to Luke 23:43 "paradise" was the place unto which our Lord Jesus Christ was going immediately after His death.

2.  According to 2 Corinthians 12:4 "paradise" is a place unto which one must be "caught UP."

3.  According to 2 Corinthians 12:2 in context with 2 Corinthians 12:4, "paradise" IS "the third heaven."

4.  According to Revelation 2:7 "paradise" is the place wherein "the tree of life" presently resides.

Seems to me from the actual teaching of God's Own Word on the matter that "paradise" IS heaven.

 

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3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Once again, what does God's OWN Word actually say about this place called "paradise" --

 

I think paradise is now a part of heaven. The English word itself means "park or orchard". Basically, it's the garden of Eden in heaven. So Jesus took paradise to heaven with him when he led captivity captive.

Jesus did not immediately ascend to heaven after his death. Notice also his words to Mary in John 20:17 which I believe had to do with his priestly ministry of Hebrews 9. He spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth yet his soul was not left in hell. My guess is paradise was located in "Abraham's Bosom" which was separated from hell by a great gulf. So the thief on the cross must have entered there first.

 

 

4 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Jesus did not go to "Hell", the place of the damned, because those there had no second chance-they died in their sin. He went to Paradise, where the OT saints were who had died in faith to God before Jesus' resurrection, to include the thief on the cross.  I believe this would also be the place called "prison". I have had people argue with me about that, saying paradise is a pleasant place, but prison is not. Well, one of the primary things that makes a prison a prison, is that those therein cannot leave of their own will. There are, in fact some prisons that are, in themselves, quite pleasant, with libraries, entertainment, good meals, comfortable accommodations, opportunities to gain an education, etc. But they still can't leave. Thus, though it was paradise, yet it was, what do they call it? A gilded cage, which they could not leave until Jesus arrived. 

In theory you could have a paradise (park, orchard) in the middle of a prison. The prison I worked at had a nice "village green" right in the middle of it.

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Perhaps we err in not making the distinction between the body and the spirit. The body of Jesus spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. But His spirit went directly to God upon His death. 

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

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10 hours ago, SureWord said:

I think paradise is now a part of heaven.

As for myself, I KNOW that Paradise is "a part" of the third heaven - because God's OWN Word says so:

2 Corinthians 12:4 -- "How that he [the one who was 'caught up to the third heaven' according to verse 2] was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

10 hours ago, SureWord said:

The English word itself means "park or orchard". Basically, it's the garden of Eden in heaven. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Do you have ANY passage of Scripture that defines the Garden of Eden as "Biblical Paradise"?  (If not, then your statement is human fabrication.)

10 hours ago, SureWord said:

Basically, it's the garden of Eden in heaven. So Jesus took paradise to heaven with him when he led captivity captive. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Do you have ANY passage of Scripture which indicates that Jesus took "Biblical Paradise" (apparently the Garden of Eden, according to your statement above) from some other place "to heaven with him when 'he led captivity captive'"?  (If not, then your statement, at best, is human conjecture.)

By the way, do you have ANY passage of Scripture which indicates that the Garden of Eden was ever removed from the earth and taken to some other place?

10 hours ago, SureWord said:

Jesus did not immediately ascend to heaven after his death. Notice also his words to Mary in John 20:17 which I believe had to do with his priestly ministry of Hebrews 9. 

You are correct; Jesus (body, soul, and spirit - for He was in bodily form in John 20:17) did not immediately ascend to heaven after His death.  However, you are incorrect if you apply this to His spirit immediately upon His death.  Immediately upon His death His spirit was certainly commended into the very hands of God the Father, as per Luke 23:46. (Note: Rightly dividing God's Word of truth requires that we never consider one passage of Scripture as being in contradiction to another.)

10 hours ago, SureWord said:

He spent three days and three nights in the heart of the earth yet his soul was not left in hell. 

The reference to "heart of the earth" is found in Matthew 12:40, and in its context simply refers to the grave (as does the reference to "the lower parts of the earth" in Ephesians 4:9).

The reference to Jesus' soul not being "left in hell" is found in Acts 2:31, and in its context also simply refers to Jesus' bodily burial in the grave/tomb.

10 hours ago, SureWord said:

My guess is paradise was located in "Abraham's Bosom" which was separated from hell by a great gulf. So the thief on the cross must have entered there first.

Before making such a "guess," it would first be necessary to Biblically establish two other points:

1.  Is the reference to "Abraham's bosom" in Luke 16:22-23 a reference to a large "place" that carried the name of Abraham's Bosom; or is that reference simply a reference to the location of Abraham's own bosom/chest, wherein/upon Lazarus had been taken to lie?

2.  If "Abraham's Bosom" actually was a large "place" that carried this name, where exactly was that place?

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18 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

As for myself, I KNOW that Paradise is "a part" of the third heaven - because God's OWN Word says so:

2 Corinthians 12:4 -- "How that he [the one who was 'caught up to the third heaven' according to verse 2] was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

Do you have ANY passage of Scripture that defines the Garden of Eden as "Biblical Paradise"?  (If not, then your statement is human fabrication.)

Do you have ANY passage of Scripture which indicates that Jesus took "Biblical Paradise" (apparently the Garden of Eden, according to your statement above) from some other place "to heaven with him when 'he led captivity captive'"?  (If not, then your statement, at best, is human conjecture.)

By the way, do you have ANY passage of Scripture which indicates that the Garden of Eden was ever removed from the earth and taken to some other place?

You are correct; Jesus (body, soul, and spirit - for He was in bodily form in John 20:17) did not immediately ascend to heaven after His death.  However, you are incorrect if you apply this to His spirit immediately upon His death.  Immediately upon His death His spirit was certainly commended into the very hands of God the Father, as per Luke 23:46. (Note: Rightly dividing God's Word of truth requires that we never consider one passage of Scripture as being in contradiction to another.)

The reference to "heart of the earth" is found in Matthew 12:40, and in its context simply refers to the grave (as does the reference to "the lower parts of the earth" in Ephesians 4:9).

The reference to Jesus' soul not being "left in hell" is found in Acts 2:31, and in its context also simply refers to Jesus' bodily burial in the grave/tomb.

Before making such a "guess," it would first be necessary to Biblically establish two other points:

1.  Is the reference to "Abraham's bosom" in Luke 16:22-23 a reference to a large "place" that carried the name of Abraham's Bosom; or is that reference simply a reference to the location of Abraham's own bosom/chest, wherein/upon Lazarus had been taken to lie?

2.  If "Abraham's Bosom" actually was a large "place" that carried this name, where exactly was that place?

1) On etymonline. com the ENGLISH root word meaning for "paradise" is a "park, orchard or garden of Eden".

2) Do you think the garden of Eden is still on the Earth? If not then it was either destroyed or removed. 

3) Did Jesus lead "captivity captive"? If he did were they already in heaven when he led them?

4) Yes, Jesus commended his "spirit" (small "s" indicating human spirit) to the Father but does this mean he went straight to heaven? How or when did he preached to the "spirits in prison"? No human conjecture, please. Oh, by the way, Jesus was already in heaven the whole time he was on earth (John 3:13).

5) So hell is now just the grave?

6) So Lazarus could see all the way from heaven down to the rich man in hell (the grave?) burning in the flames (of the grave)? Can people in heaven see people in hell or even the grave? 

7) Is Luke 16:19-31 just a parable?

Your Calvinist approach to the Gospels and O.T. have become a stumbling block for you.

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1 hour ago, SureWord said:

1) On etymonline. com the ENGLISH root word meaning for "paradise" is a "park, orchard or garden of Eden".

Indeed, the English word "paradise" is often used for the Garden of Eden. But that is NOT the question. The question is whether God the Holy Spirit ever inspired such a usage in the Holy Scriptures.  If you use common human usage as your argument, then common human usage is your authority; but a sad (and unsound) authority it is for Biblical doctrine.

1 hour ago, SureWord said:

2) Do you think the garden of Eden is still on the Earth? If not then it was either destroyed or removed. 

Destroyed in the Flood.

1 hour ago, SureWord said:

3) Did Jesus lead "captivity captive"? If he did were they already in heaven when he led them?

Where does God's Word indicates that "captivity" is a "them"?  Actually, in His resurrection our Lord Jesus Christ took the captivity of death itself captive.  Now the power of death and hell are in His hands.

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

4) Yes, Jesus commended his "spirit" (small "s" indicating human spirit) to the Father but does this mean he went straight to heaven? 

Yes, this means that His spirit went straight into the Father's hands in heaven.

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

How or when did he preached to the "spirits in prison"? No human conjecture, please.

This question is a reference to 1 Peter 3:18-20 -- "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

Herein 1 Peter 3:19 actually tells us HOW our Lord Jesus Christ preached unto "the spirits in prison" when it uses the phrase "BY WHICH ALSO he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."  This phrase "by which also" employs the pronoun "which," and grammatically the antecedent for this pronoun in this context is found in the immediately preceding prepositional phrase, "by the Spirit."  The word "Spirit" in that prepositional phrase contains the capital "S," indicating a reference to the Person of the Holy Spirit.  Thus our Lord Jesus Christ did not preach unto the "spirits in prison" by His own personal presence per se, but BY the Person of the Holy Spirit.

When did our Lord Jesus Christ preach unto these "spirits in prison" by the Person of the Holy Spirit?  First, we must ask -- Who are these "spirits in prison?"  Again, the passage itself gives answer -- They are those "which sometime [in past time] were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah."  This is a fairly clear reference to Genesis 6:1-13.  Who are they?  They are all of the disobedient during the time of Noah, that is -- ALL of humanity alive on the earth at that time except Noah and his family.  When were they disobedient?  During that period of time wherein "the longsuffering of God waited during the time of Noah" as Noah was building the ark.  It is that 120 years to which the Lord God made reference in Genesis 6:3.  Where are these disobedient ones now?  Having perished in the flood, they are now in the "prison" punishment and torment of hell.  How did our Lord Jesus Christ preach unto them?  By the striving of His Holy Spirit as referenced in Genesis 6:3, as per 1 Peter 3:19.  So then, when did our Lord Jesus Christ preach unto them by the striving of His Holy Spirit?  During the 120 years of the Lord God's longsuffering until the destruction of the flood.

(No human conjecture necessary. Just a comparing of Scripture to Scripture.)

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

Oh, by the way, Jesus was already in heaven the whole time he was on earth (John 3:13).

Indeed, as per our Lord Jesus Christ's own report.

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

5) So hell is now just the grave?

The word "hell" in the King James translation is used both for the grave and for the eternal place of God's judgment upon the wicked.  This is so because the basic meaning of the English word "hell" is "the place of the dead."  Thus it is necessary to contextually discern which of these TWO meanings is the case in any given passage of Scripture.  To simply assume one of the meanings without giving it contextual consideration is NOT rightly dividing God's Word of truth.

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

6) So Lazarus could see all the way from heaven down to the rich man in hell (the grave?) burning in the flames (of the grave)? Can people in heaven see people in hell or even the grave? 

 First, your sarcastic usage of "the grave" in reference to our Lord's account in Luke 16:19-31 is false.  The context of Luke 16:19-31 indicates that the word "hell" in this context is a reference to the eternal place of God's judgment upon the wicked.  This can be discerned through the descriptive reference to torments and flames in Luke 16:23-25, 28.

Second, you ask - Can people in heaven see people in hell?  What is the answer of Revelation 14:9-11 -- "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone IN THE PRESENCE OF the holy angels, and IN THE PRESENCE OF the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

7) Is Luke 16:19-31 just a parable?

No.

2 hours ago, SureWord said:

Your Calvinist approach to the Gospels and O.T. have become a stumbling block for you.

And now I laugh; because anyone who actually knows me, knows that the "Calvinist" accusation does not fit me at all.  I am a ZERO point Calvinist.  Indeed, I am a firm (and even sometimes, fierce) opponent of Calvinism.  (Yet I do understand the "political" ploy of making such a reference, in order to "color" your opponent's viewpoint with a "negative brush" by lumping that opponent in with a group that is viewed by the audience in the negative.)  

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For all who may be following in the audience,

A number of times in this thread discussion I have asserted that the basic meaning of the English word "hell" is "the place of the dead," and that it includes two possible meanings -- (1) the grave or (2) the place of eternal judgment for the wicked.  

Allow me to present the following evidence for the assertion.  In Noah Webster's dictionary of 1828 (facsimile edition), we find seven definitions for the English word "hell."  The first two of these definitions are as follows:

1. The place or state of punishment for the wicked after death. Matthew 10. Luke 12.
2. The place of the dead, or of souls after death; the lower regions, or the grave; called in Hebrew, sheol, and by the Greeks, hades. Psalm 16. Jonah 2.

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