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Salvation Before Christ?

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1 minute ago, OlBrotherDC said:

You share many of their views in regard to salvation being the same throughout all history. That’s what brought that up. Wasn’t any personal shot. Didn’t mean to offend. 

No offense was taken.  Just sought to communicate clarity.  Assumptions can be fierce beasts if they turn out to be wrong.

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1 minute ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

No offense was taken.  Just sought to communicate clarity.  Assumptions can be fierce beasts if they turn out to be wrong.

I hope my disclaimer that was included with it softened the blow. 🤣

 

11 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yeah, you are wrong there.  I am a VERY STRONG opponent of Covenant/Reformed theology with every fiber of my being.

On a positive note. Here is something we can wholeheartedly agree on. !!

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4 hours ago, SureWord said:

You'd be hard pressed to find the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection being preached or believed in the OT. The twelve disciples didn't even understand Jesus when he told them about it. We see it now because the veil has been pulled back but back in those days it was hid from them though many of the prophets sought to understand it.

Abraham was before the law of Moses. That's why Paul used him as an example.

Sureword,

I think that you need to re-read my post very carefully.

Alan

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32 minutes ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I would contend that Hebrews wasn't written for the Church Age as far as doctrine. 

It's written to those in "these last days". Now unless the last days cover a time period of 2, 000 years it probably has some future application. That doesn't mean it has no relevance to the Church Age  like the Grace Bible Fellowship churches teach.

6 minutes ago, Alan said:

Sureword,

I think that you need to re-read my post very carefully.

Alan

OK

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8 minutes ago, SureWord said:

It's written to those in "these last days". Now unless the last days cover a time period of 2, 000 years it probably has some future application. That doesn't mean it has no relevance to the Church Age  like the Grace Bible Fellowship churches teach.

OK

I didn’t say it had no relevance. I said I wouldn’t pull my doctrine from it. 

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17 minutes ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I didn’t say it had no relevance. I said I wouldn’t pull my doctrine from it. 

Yes, I know. I wasn't saying you were saying, lol. I just put that in there so in case anyone else who may read it won't think I'm saying it has no application for the body of Christ.

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On 6/29/2020 at 11:48 PM, OlBrotherDC said:

I have recently heard from many people that "People were saved by looking forward to the cross before and looking back at it after". I have also noticed that the majority of people who have said this were Calvinists. Since the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ was obviously not the focus of Abraham's Faith in Romans 4, how do you construct a view of the Bible without considering the dispensation of the scripture you are reading? In other words, what scripture do people use to defend this view of looking forward to the cross? I understand that the Bible starts speaking of a Messiah to come in Genesis, but I do not think Jesus' disciples understood fully what was going on, and they were with Him. In Luke 24

13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.

14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.

16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

17 And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:

20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.

21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

22 Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;

23 And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.

24 And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.

25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

So how were Abraham, Noah, David or others to know this? 

Does anyone believe that people before Christ were saved by Faith in Christ alone?

Would love some help and clarification here, Thank You! 

God always has saved by Grace alone thru faith alone!

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44 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

Has God ever saved apart from the Cross of Christ?

That would depend on your definition of saved, do you believe OT believers were “saved” before the cross? 

Edited by OlBrotherDC
Typo
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19 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

Has God ever saved apart from the Cross of Christ?

Definition means a lot.

For instance:  (did the people God here saved never believe, or they believed and later believed not ? )

 Jude 1:5 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
    I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

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18 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

That would depend on your definition of saved, do you believe OT believers were “saved” before the cross? 

yes, but all of them were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we are now!

17 hours ago, jeff_student_of_Jesus said:

Definition means a lot.

For instance:  (did the people God here saved never believe, or they believed and later believed not ? )

 Jude 1:5 | View whole chapter | See verse in context
    I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Saved as in going to Heaven!

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1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

yes, but all of them were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we are now!

1 Peter 1:11 (KJV) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

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On 7/1/2020 at 4:45 PM, OlBrotherDC said:

That would depend on your definition of saved, do you believe OT believers were “saved” before the cross? 

Brother DC,

Although you presented this question to Brother DaChaser (whom I believe admits to being a Calvinist), and not to myself, since you and I have engaged in discussion already on the matter in this thread, I wish to answer from my perspective --

The word "saved" most basically means "to be delivered from some trouble."  In relation to eternal salvation, the word "saved" would include two aspects, one a "legal" aspect, and the other a "literal" aspect.

1.  Legally, to be delivered/saved from the condemnation of one's sinfulness, and thus to be delivered from the eternal wrath of God.  This aspect of salvation is administered through the process of divine justification.

2.  Literally, to be delivered/saved from the deadness of one's sinfulness, and thus to be delivered from the kingdom/family of spiritual darkness.  This aspect of salvation is administered through the process of divine regeneration.

I myself believe that Old Testament believers did indeed experience both the blessing of divine justification as well as the blessing of divine regeneration.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

yes, but all of them were not indwelt by the Holy Spirit as we are now!

I would not use the word "saved" to refer to OT believers before the cross. I do believe however that they were "justified" meaning that they would be "saved" when Christ completed the finished work that God started before the foundation of the world on the cross providing a way for us to be reconciled to Him. I believe the scriptures teach that they were in a place called Abraham's Bosom awaiting the time when they would be "saved". I understand that my position is not the most popular position today. However, I do think if you hold to covenant theology which you yourself have claimed to do, (DaChaser, not Pastor Scott 😂)you will have serious flaws in your theology when you get to James chapter 2. Calvinists are quick to claim salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, which I agree is the only thing that can save a man in the church age and I have put my faith in this. The problem that I personally see is when you try and apply this to all of the other dispensations. I think I probably have an idea of your view, but I would love to hear your opinion on James 2:21-22. Lest anyone think that I don't believe everyone has to be saved by Christ alone, I do.  I simply think that they were "justified" before Christ by faith in Gods revelation to them "and their obedience to Gods specific commands to them" not to be confused with works to righteousness such as keeping the law. I believe once they were justified, they had avoided hell, and would enter into Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise, until the blood of Christ redeemed them. 

,

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Hebrews is clear that the sacrifices were a temporary covering for sin. If people in the OT were saved by the finished work of Christ (which wasn't finished at the time) then why the sacrifices at all? Some like to say they were ceremonial which is absurd. A soul would be "cut off" from the people if they didn't perform them. 

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4 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I would not use the word "saved" to refer to OT believers before the cross. I do believe however that they were "justified" meaning that they would be "saved" when Christ completed the finished work that God started before the foundation of the world on the cross providing a way for us to be reconciled to Him. I believe the scriptures teach that they were in a place called Abraham's Bosom awaiting the time when they would be "saved". I understand that my position is not the most popular position today. However, I do think if you hold to covenant theology which you yourself have claimed to do, (DaChaser, not Pastor Scott 😂)you will have serious flaws in your theology when you get to James chapter 2. Calvinists are quick to claim salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, which I agree is the only thing that can save a man in the church age and I have put my faith in this. The problem that I personally see is when you try and apply this to all of the other dispensations. I think I probably have an idea of your view, but I would love to hear your opinion on James 2:21-22. Lest anyone think that I don't believe everyone has to be saved by Christ alone, I do.  I simply think that they were "justified" before Christ by faith in Gods revelation to them "and their obedience to Gods specific commands to them" not to be confused with works to righteousness such as keeping the law. I believe once they were justified, they had avoided hell, and would enter into Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise, until the blood of Christ redeemed them. 

,

I understand that the OT believers had their sins remitted and passed over, so justified and regenerated, but not indwelt by the Holy Spirit except those such as Kings and prophets!

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5 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

1 Peter 1:11 (KJV) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

The Holy Spirit dealt with Prophets, priests and Kings different then from "common" believers in OT!

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3 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

The Holy Spirit dealt with Prophets, priests and Kings different then from "common" believers in OT!

This is not what the reformers taught about the Holy Spirit, 

but that rabbit hole is too deep for me. 😂

God Bless you, Dachaser!

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