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Salvation Before Christ?


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On 6/30/2020 at 9:02 PM, OlBrotherDC said:

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:13

On 6/30/2020 at 9:35 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Concerning the other matter --

When do you believe that David actually did "ascend" into heaven?

On 6/30/2020 at 10:05 PM, OlBrotherDC said:

I believe that all OT believers(who had placed their FAITH in the instruction given to them by God in their respective dispensation)went to Abraham's Bosom (NOT HELL) and were saved when Jesus finished the work of eternal salvation on the cross and overcame death. I would think that they ascended to Heaven sometime around the Resurrection of Christ. 

Brother DC, that is the answer to my question which I expected, since it is the commonly held view of those who hold to your overall position on this matter concerning the temporary holding place for Old Testament believers.  However, I did not wish to assume your answer; thus I asked the question.

Now, in relation to your answer -- With the opening line of Acts 2:34, the apostle Peter declared in the present tense under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning David, "For David IS NOT ascended into the heavens."  This declaration by Peter was made weeks after the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Thus it would appear either (1) that David (and possible all Old Testament believers, if David is a representative thereof) was NOT taken to heaven by our Lord in the process of His death, burial, and resurrection, or (2) that "ascension" into heaven means something more than simply an entrance therein.

From the context of Acts 2:29-36, I would contend that the latter is the case, and that "ascension" into heaven (which Jesus Christ, in contrast to David, DID do) should be understood as meaning "resurrection and exaltation."  Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven (through resurrection from the dead and exaltation to the right hand of God the Father.)  No, no other individual has ascended into heaven (through resurrection and exaltation), not even unto this very day.  Now, if this understanding concerning the Biblical meaning of "ascension into heaven" is correct, then John 3:13 has nothing to do with those who might have or have not "entered" heaven upon their death.  

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1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother DC, that is the answer to my question which I expected, since it is the commonly held view of those who hold to your overall position on this matter concerning the temporary holding place for Old Testament believers.  However, I did not wish to assume your answer; thus I asked the question.

Now, in relation to your answer -- With the opening line of Acts 2:34, the apostle Peter declared in the present tense under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning David, "For David IS NOT ascended into the heavens."  This declaration by Peter was made weeks after the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Thus it would appear either (1) that David (and possible all Old Testament believers, if David is a representative thereof) was NOT taken to heaven by our Lord in the process of His death, burial, and resurrection, or (2) that "ascension" into heaven means something more than simply an entrance therein.

From the context of Acts 2:29-36, I would contend that the latter is the case, and that "ascension" into heaven (which Jesus Christ, in contrast to David, DID do) should be understood as meaning "resurrection and exaltation."  Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven (through resurrection from the dead and exaltation to the right hand of God the Father.)  No, no other individual has ascended into heaven (through resurrection and exaltation), not even unto this very day.  Now, if this understanding concerning the Biblical meaning of "ascension into heaven" is correct, then John 3:13 has nothing to do with those who might have or have not "entered" heaven upon their death.  

It seems to me that your theology teaches that the blood of Christ was not a necessary piece of salvation for OT believers. If the OT believers went to Heaven without it. Do you still submit that salvation has been the same for everyone for ever? Except some not knowing as much about the details? 

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19 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

This is not what the reformers taught about the Holy Spirit, 

but that rabbit hole is too deep for me. ?

God Bless you, Dachaser!

I have read various views on how the Holy Spirit operated in OT times, and many of therm even among Reformed sees Him as regenerating but not infilling them as he does now for all under the New Covenant!

11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother DC, that is the answer to my question which I expected, since it is the commonly held view of those who hold to your overall position on this matter concerning the temporary holding place for Old Testament believers.  However, I did not wish to assume your answer; thus I asked the question.

Now, in relation to your answer -- With the opening line of Acts 2:34, the apostle Peter declared in the present tense under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning David, "For David IS NOT ascended into the heavens."  This declaration by Peter was made weeks after the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Thus it would appear either (1) that David (and possible all Old Testament believers, if David is a representative thereof) was NOT taken to heaven by our Lord in the process of His death, burial, and resurrection, or (2) that "ascension" into heaven means something more than simply an entrance therein.

From the context of Acts 2:29-36, I would contend that the latter is the case, and that "ascension" into heaven (which Jesus Christ, in contrast to David, DID do) should be understood as meaning "resurrection and exaltation."  Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven (through resurrection from the dead and exaltation to the right hand of God the Father.)  No, no other individual has ascended into heaven (through resurrection and exaltation), not even unto this very day.  Now, if this understanding concerning the Biblical meaning of "ascension into heaven" is correct, then John 3:13 has nothing to do with those who might have or have not "entered" heaven upon their death.  

The souls of the redeemed depart their physical body at death to be where the lord Jesus is right now!

9 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

It seems to me that your theology teaches that the blood of Christ was not a necessary piece of salvation for OT believers. If the OT believers went to Heaven without it. Do you still submit that salvation has been the same for everyone for ever? Except some not knowing as much about the details? 

The basis of salvation has always been the Cross of Jesus!

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10 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

It seems to me that your theology teaches that the blood of Christ was not a necessary piece of salvation for OT believers. If the OT believers went to Heaven without it. Do you still submit that salvation has been the same for everyone for ever? Except some not knowing as much about the details? 

No sir, I would hold that the shed blood and sacrificial death of the Lord Jesus Christ is the ONLY propitiation acceptable in the sight of the Lord God for any sinner to be saved in any time.  Yet my belief system would also acknowledge that in the viewpoint of the Lord God our Lord Jesus Christ is "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (See Revelation 13:8)

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11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother DC, that is the answer to my question which I expected, since it is the commonly held view of those who hold to your overall position on this matter concerning the temporary holding place for Old Testament believers.  However, I did not wish to assume your answer; thus I asked the question.

Now, in relation to your answer -- With the opening line of Acts 2:34, the apostle Peter declared in the present tense under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit concerning David, "For David IS NOT ascended into the heavens."  This declaration by Peter was made weeks after the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Thus it would appear either (1) that David (and possible all Old Testament believers, if David is a representative thereof) was NOT taken to heaven by our Lord in the process of His death, burial, and resurrection, or (2) that "ascension" into heaven means something more than simply an entrance therein.

From the context of Acts 2:29-36, I would contend that the latter is the case, and that "ascension" into heaven (which Jesus Christ, in contrast to David, DID do) should be understood as meaning "resurrection and exaltation."  Yes, our Lord Jesus Christ has ascended into heaven (through resurrection from the dead and exaltation to the right hand of God the Father.)  No, no other individual has ascended into heaven (through resurrection and exaltation), not even unto this very day.  Now, if this understanding concerning the Biblical meaning of "ascension into heaven" is correct, then John 3:13 has nothing to do with those who might have or have not "entered" heaven upon their death.  

50 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

The souls of the redeemed depart their physical body at death to be where the lord Jesus is right now!

Brother DaChaser, if you read my posting completely and follow its thought to conclusion, you will find that I am contending simply that "ascending" into heaven and "entering" into heaven are Biblically to be understood as two different things.  I am NOT denying that any believer, either of the Old Testament or of the New Testament, "entered" heaven upon death.  In fact, in an earlier posting I specifically declared my position (in response to a question by Brother DC) that Old Testament believers went "straight to heaven" upon their death.  However, Brother DC argued against my position by presenting John 3:13 which states that "no man hath ascended up to heaven."  I then employed a consideration of Acts 2:29-36 as a defense that Biblically "ascending" to heaven and "entering" heaven are different things, wherein "ascending" to heaven involves resurrection and exaltation, not simply entrance.  Thus I believe that "ascending" to heaven applies ONLY to our Lord Jesus Christ, even unto this day; whereas I believe that "entering" heaven applies to ALL dead believers, and has applied to them throughout all of time.

 

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15 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

 

Brother DaChaser, if you read my posting completely and follow its thought to conclusion, you will find that I am contending simply that "ascending" into heaven and "entering" into heaven are Biblically to be understood as two different things.  I am NOT denying that any believer, either of the Old Testament or of the New Testament, "entered" heaven upon death.  In fact, in an earlier posting I specifically declared my position (in response to a question by Brother DC) that Old Testament believers went "straight to heaven" upon their death.  However, Brother DC argued against my position by presenting John 3:13 which states that "no man hath ascended up to heaven."  I then employed a consideration of Acts 2:29-36 as a defense that Biblically "ascending" to heaven and "entering" heaven are different things, wherein "ascending" to heaven involves resurrection and exaltation, not simply entrance.  Thus I believe that "ascending" to heaven applies ONLY to our Lord Jesus Christ, even unto this day; whereas I believe that "entering" heaven applies to ALL dead believers, and has applied to them throughout all of time.

 

Those who died believing in the promised Messiah during OT times went to Abraham's Bosom

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1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Ahhhh, then you stand in agreement with Brother DC on this point; and I stand in disagreement with both of you on it.

Jesus described that place when talking about the rich man and Lazarus!

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15 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

Jesus described that place when talking about the rich man and Lazarus!

Brother DaChaser, for my response(s) to this please consider my postings in the thread -- Where did Jesus go when he died, hell burning with fire or paradise? (starting with the following).

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2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

Those who died believing in the promised Messiah during OT times went to Abraham's Bosom

The Jews in the OT had no idea the Messiah was going to be crucified. Thus, why the twelve apostles couldn't grasp Christ's words when he told them of his coming death, burial and resurrection or their melt down and scattering (except for maybe John) when he was crucified. It was hidden from them. The fact that someone like Isaiah wrote about "suffering servant or David about his soul being left in hell is irrelevant. It was still hidden from them and when God hides something you will not find it out no matter how much praying or studying you do. We know now looking back because these things have been revealed to us. So now we can see Jesus in every book of the bible.

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6 minutes ago, SureWord said:

when God hides something you will not find it out no matter how much praying or studying you do. We know now looking back because these things have been revealed to us.

Amen with all Praise to the Father in Heaven !

1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

Jesus described that place when talking about the rich man and Lazarus!

Hmmm...

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3 hours ago, SureWord said:

The Jews in the OT had no idea the Messiah was going to be crucified. Thus, why the twelve apostles couldn't grasp Christ's words when he told them of his coming death, burial and resurrection or their melt down and scattering (except for maybe John) when he was crucified. It was hidden from them. The fact that someone like Isaiah wrote about "suffering servant or David about his soul being left in hell is irrelevant. It was still hidden from them and when God hides something you will not find it out no matter how much praying or studying you do. We know now looking back because these things have been revealed to us. So now we can see Jesus in every book of the bible.

True, but those saved jews knew the Promise of God to send the Messiah, and that was whom their faith and hope were in!

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Anywhere in this thread,  was it mentioned or noted that when the Father in heaven saved someone He circumcised their heart .....    'gave them a new heart' ......   renewed their mind ..... gave them a right spirit .   and more ?   (sanctified them,  set them apart (holy),  set angels to guard them ,   guarded their minds with a God-Strong fortress,  fulfilled every Promise, every Word He Spoke concerning their salvation ?   When God Says It is So,  It is So.  When God Makes it So, It is So.

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