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Salvation Before Christ?


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22 minutes ago, John Young said:

You are moving the focus of faith off of Christ and onto his acts. This is called "moving the goal post". We are not saved "by our faith in the death, burial, and resurrection" but rather by our faith in Christ. The acts of Christ in his the Death Burial and Resurrection provided salvation but knowledge of those facts does not save. Rather, our faith is IN CHRIST places is into HIM and only then do we become partakers in His salvation. OT believers IN CHRIST receive the same Blessings without full knowledge of HIS acts to provide that salvation, just as much as do we NT believers who have Knowledge of HIS acts. 

How much then does someone need to know to be saved? It sounds like your saying that one need not know the death, burial, and resurrection to be saved which Is the Gospel that Paul preached.. 

 

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4. 

It sounds to me like Paul was preaching the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, otherwise known as The Gospel of the Grace of God (Acts 20:24), or what we might call in this present Church Age, THE GOSPEL. 

 

 

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10:9

Edited by OlBrotherDC
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The power of eternal salvation is the same throughout all time -- God's grace.
The avenue of eternal salvation is the same throughout all time -- The Messiah/Christ of God and His work.
The means of eternal salvation is the same throughout all time -- Faith in God and in His Messiah/Christ.
The detailed information in the message unto eternal salvation has developed over time -- As God has progressively revealed more.
The blessings of eternal salvation are the same throughout all time -- Forgiveness, Justification, Imputation, etc.

The fact that Abraham did not believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of the coming Messiah/Christ is not relevant.  He DID believe in that which God had revealed to him at that time about the coming Messiah/Christ, and God counted his faith unto justification and imputation of divine (Christ's own) righteousness.  However, in our time belief in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ is very relevant, specifically because God has now revealed such unto us for our time.  

Yet we must remember that the object of faith for salvation is CHRIST HIMSELF, in that HE died, and was buried, and rose again.  In fact, even 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 grammatically reveals the focus in this way -- Christ died (wherein the subject is Christ, not His death); He was buried (where in the subject is Christ, not His burial); He rose again the third day (wherein the subject is Christ, not his resurrection).  The subject upon whom we in the New Testament are to focus our faith is CHRIST HIMSELF -- that is, the Christ who died, was buried, and rose again.  Even so, the subject upon whom those in the Old Testament were to focus their faith was also CHRIST HIMSELF -- that is, the Christ who . . . whatever God had revealed concerning Him unto their time.  

There is not more than one gospel.  The gospel throughout all time has always been the gospel of God's grace.  Salvation has never been by any other power, but God's grace.  The gospel throughout all time has always been the gospel of Christ.  Salvation has never been by any other avenue and means than faith in God's Messiah/Christ.  The only thing that has developed over time is the depth of revealed information about God's Messiah/Christ.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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1 hour ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I have no doubt that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness, but the object of this faith was not the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ like ours is today. I am not questioning in any way that faith in God's revelation in the appropriate dispensation is the means by which we are saved and have always been saved.

Was Abel saved by his Faith in Christ?  

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. Hebrews 11:4 

I see faith in God. Faith that led to action! I see no Death, Burial, and Resurrection. 

 

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:5

Enoch had faith, and he was saved because he pleased God through his faith, but again no mention of the Death, Burial, and resurrection. 

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

I agree that faith is ABSOLUTELY necessary. 

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Hebrews 11:7

Noah had faith, enough faith that he took action to do what God had told him to do. No Death, burial, and resurrection. 

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Hebrews 11:8

Abraham had faith, and OBEYED, not the belief in the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus, but in the specific commands God had given to him, I believe this is what was counted to him for righteousness. 

Are you saying all these people were saved by placing their faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ like we are today? 

 

I would contend that Hebrews 11 is not talking about anyone's saving faith at all.  Remember that we are not only saved through faith, but that we must also walk by faith.  Thus not every reference to faith in Scripture is about saving faith.  In some cases a reference to faith in Scripture is about walking faith.  The epistle to the Hebrews was written in order to confront and encourage those who were already saved through faith to cast aside their doubting discouragement and to continue walking by faith.  The examples of Hebrews 11 are given as examples of those who walked by faith.  Hebrews 11 is not about saving faith at all, but about walking faith.  For this very reason it emphasizes the connection between faith and obedience.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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I appreciate and respect your views. You are correct it does look like I worded some stuff weird earlier, I understand the focus of the belief is on Christ and his finished work through the death, burial, and resurrection. I appreciate your patience in pointing that out. 
 

I disagree that there is only one gospel, ( I believe there is at least 2, probably 3) but I know people have spent decades arguing these two sides and I doubt we will figure it out here so I don’t know if it’s worth getting into a whole other deal over And people usually start pointing fingers and name calling. I do believe there is only one gospel that we are saved by in this dispensation as I have previously stated many times. 

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2 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I am going to guess that I am going to have some VERY STRONG disagreements with you over future time.

I would assume that any two people, one holding to covenant theology which I believe you do at least to an extent, (and I could be totally wrong there and I apologize if I am),  and one who holds to dispensationalism, as I do. Will have some very strong disagreements fundamentally. I do, however wish you the best and hope that God blesses you and your ministry. 

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7 minutes ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I would assume that any two people, one holding to covenant theology which I believe you do at least to an extent, (and I could be totally wrong there and I apologize if I am),  and one who holds to dispensationalism, as I do. Will have some very strong disagreements fundamentally. I do, however wish you the best and hope that God blesses you and your ministry. 

Yeah, you are wrong there.  I am a VERY STRONG opponent of Covenant/Reformed theology with every fiber of my being.

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1 minute ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yeah, you are wrong there.  I am a VERY STRONG opponent of Covenant/Reformed theology with every fiber of my being.

You share many of their views in regard to salvation being the same throughout all history. That’s what brought that up. Wasn’t any personal shot. Didn’t mean to offend. 

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1 minute ago, OlBrotherDC said:

You share many of their views in regard to salvation being the same throughout all history. That’s what brought that up. Wasn’t any personal shot. Didn’t mean to offend. 

No offense was taken.  Just sought to communicate clarity.  Assumptions can be fierce beasts if they turn out to be wrong.

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1 minute ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

No offense was taken.  Just sought to communicate clarity.  Assumptions can be fierce beasts if they turn out to be wrong.

I hope my disclaimer that was included with it softened the blow. ?

 

11 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yeah, you are wrong there.  I am a VERY STRONG opponent of Covenant/Reformed theology with every fiber of my being.

On a positive note. Here is something we can wholeheartedly agree on. !!

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4 hours ago, SureWord said:

You'd be hard pressed to find the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection being preached or believed in the OT. The twelve disciples didn't even understand Jesus when he told them about it. We see it now because the veil has been pulled back but back in those days it was hid from them though many of the prophets sought to understand it.

Abraham was before the law of Moses. That's why Paul used him as an example.

Sureword,

I think that you need to re-read my post very carefully.

Alan

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32 minutes ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I would contend that Hebrews wasn't written for the Church Age as far as doctrine. 

It's written to those in "these last days". Now unless the last days cover a time period of 2, 000 years it probably has some future application. That doesn't mean it has no relevance to the Church Age  like the Grace Bible Fellowship churches teach.

6 minutes ago, Alan said:

Sureword,

I think that you need to re-read my post very carefully.

Alan

OK

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