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Salvation Before Christ?


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1 minute ago, SureWord said:

According to Romans 3:25 those in the past were saved by the blood of Christ (even though at the time they didn't realize it, that was the mystery of the gospel) but their salvation wasn't completed until Christ actually made the way to heaven clear. This is what the mention of the forbearance of God is all about. God put up with their unremitted sins until Christ made the propitiation. God was able to put up with this knowing that his Son would eventually remit their sins once and for all. This is why I believe the sacrifices were necessary not that they in of themselves saved a man but they looked forward to the time of salvation. They were not just ceremonial as some say but part of the way of their eventually salvation. They were kind of a put on hold type of salvation. They in of themselves did not save but temporarily covered sins and if a man didn't perform them he wasn't showing faith in the atonement of God reserved for the future therefore would end up in hell. I know this sounds like a contradiction but it's not if you carefully think it through. Until that time those who performed them in faith, after their death, had to ride it out in "Abraham's Bosom" until the final sacrifice was made by Christ. Then Christ led captivity captive.

I agree with what you said, that they were sort of put on hold until they heard the Gospel of the Grace of God from Jesus after he was crucified. The dead O.T. Saints could not have went to heaven yet, (John 3:13). Is 1 Peter 4:6 what your talking about? if so the I agree. 
 

The whole point that I was trying get to, was, yes OT saints were saved by faith, but the object of their faith had not been fully revealed to them, since the Gospel of the Grace of God did not come until Paul. And OT saints in some sense had to combine works to show their faith, they had to believe God, but also “do his commandments” more so than we do now, under the dispensation of Grace, where it is strictly faith that saves a man. 
 

I think I am trying to say the same thing you are. I appreciate your help! 
 

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A thorough understanding of the book of Romans, especially Romans chapter 3-8, clearly shows that we are saved through by grace through faith, in any dispensation, Jew or Gentile, whether we fully understand the work of salvation or not, through the imputed justification by Christ, without any iota of works involved. Did not Paul say, in conclusion to the matter of salvation, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:28

If there is any work, of any kind, involved in the salvation of a soul, whether before the Law, during the Law, during the millennium,Jew of Gentile, then, according to the apostle Paul, salvation is a "debt" and not by "grace." "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4

As with the apostle Paul, as far as I am concerned, this concludes the matter with me also.

 

8 hours ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I agree with what you said, that they were sort of put on hold until they heard the Gospel of the Grace of God from Jesus after he was crucified. The dead O.T. Saints could not have went to heaven yet, (John 3:13). Is 1 Peter 4:6 what your talking about? if so the I agree. 
 

 

As far as the salvation of the soul is concerned, 1 Peter 4:6, has no bearing on the subject.

Edited by Alan
grammar through to thorough
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Was Abraham an Old Testament believer?
Was Abraham justified by and  before the Lord God through faith?
By definition, can justification occur apart from and before the forgiveness/remission of sins?
By definition, did Abraham's justification include the imputation of the Lord's righteousness to his account?

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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1 hour ago, Alan said:

A through understanding of the book of Romans, especially Romans chapter 3-8, clearly shows that we are saved through by grace through faith, in any dispensation, Jew or Gentile, whether we fully understand the work of salvation or not, through the imputed justification by Christ, without any iota of works involved. Did not Paul say, in conclusion to the matter of salvation, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:28

If there is any work, of any kind, involved in the salvation of a soul, whether before the Law, during the Law, during the millennium,Jew of Gentile, then, according to the apostle Paul, salvation is a "debt" and not by "grace." "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4

As with the apostle Paul, as far as I am concerned, this concludes the matter with me also.

 

As far as the salvation of the soul is concerned, 1 Peter 4:6, has no bearing on the subject.

You'd be hard pressed to find the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection being preached or believed in the OT. The twelve disciples didn't even understand Jesus when he told them about it. We see it now because the veil has been pulled back but back in those days it was hid from them though many of the prophets sought to understand it.

3 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Was Abraham an Old Testament believer?
Was Abraham justified before the Lord God through faith?
By definition, can justification occur apart from and before the forgiveness/remission of sins?
By definition, did Abraham's justification include the imputation of the Lord's righteousness to his account?

Abraham was before the law of Moses. That's why Paul used him as an example.

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2 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Was Abraham an Old Testament believer?
Was Abraham justified before the Lord God through faith?
By definition, can justification occur apart from and before the forgiveness/remission of sins?

Abraham was an Old Testament believer, though not a believer like we are today, since the Death, Burial, and Resurrection that provides the means for our salvation today had not happened and was not revealed before Paul. The Disciples did not even understand that Jesus was to be crucified and rise again, Luke 9:45, Luke 18:31-34, Luke 24:6-11, John 2:18-22,John 20:8-9, Matt 16:21-23 is a pretty good example that the disciples did not understand salvation the way we do today, because it wasn’t revealed to them yet, Paul brings it in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. 
 

The object of the OT believers faith is what I am getting at. They didn’t understand the cross, they could not have been saved in the same way we are today. 
 

 

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6 minutes ago, SureWord said:

You'd be hard pressed to find the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection being preached or believed in the OT. The twelve disciples didn't even understand Jesus when he told them about it. We see it now because the veil has been pulled back but back in those days it was hid from them though many of the prophets sought to understand it.

Abraham was before the law of Moses. That's why Paul used him as an example.

By the way, the argument of your earlier posting indicated that the problem of salvation for Old Testament believers was because Christ had not yet been crucified.  This would apply to Abraham before the giving of Law, just as it would have applied to any Israelite after the giving of the Law.  Thus, according to your point as given above, the giving of the Law after Abraham is not really relevant to your argument.  (If your logic is not consistent, then your point loses credibility.)

Furthermore, did Abraham know "the gospel of the death, burial, and resurrection" of Jesus the Christ?  If not, in what was his justifying faith (if, in fact, you acknowledge that he was actually justified by and before the Lord God)?  Even so, would not then such faith have been sufficient for the justification of any other Old Testament believer?

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1 minute ago, OlBrotherDC said:

Abraham was an Old Testament believer, though not a believer like we are today, since the Death, Burial, and Resurrection that provides the means for our salvation today had not happened and was not revealed before Paul. The Disciples did not even understand that Jesus was to be crucified and rise again, Luke 9:45, Luke 18:31-34, Luke 24:6-11, John 2:18-22,John 20:8-9, Matt 16:21-23 is a pretty good example that the disciples did not understand salvation the way we do today, because it wasn’t revealed to them yet, Paul brings it in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4. 
 

The object of the OT believers faith is what I am getting at. They didn’t understand the cross, they could not have been saved in the same way we are today. 

Actually, you are confusing the way/means of eternal salvation with the message/information of the gospel.  The way/means of eternal salvation has ALWAYS been by God's grace through an individual's faith in God's revelation of the Messiah/Christ (to whatever extent that had been revealed unto their time).  The fact that we now have more information concerning the Messiah/Christ does not alter the way/means of eternal salvation for ALL individuals throughout ALL time.

Abraham (as well as David) was indeed an Old Testament believer.  Abraham (as well as David) was indeed justified by and before the Lord God, just like us New Testament believers today.  Abraham (as well as David) did indeed have his sins forgiven/remitted just like us New Testament believers today.  Abraham (as well as David) did indeed have the righteousness of the Lord imputed to his account, just like us New Testament believers today.  Abraham (as well as David) was indeed saved eternally with the same eternal salvation that we receive today.

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5 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Abraham (as well as David) was indeed an Old Testament believer.  Abraham (as well as David) was indeed justified by and before the Lord God, just like us New Testament believers today.  Abraham (as well as David) did indeed have his sins forgiven/remitted just like us New Testament believers today.  Abraham (as well as David) did indeed have the righteousness of the Lord imputed to his account, just like us New Testament believers today.  Abraham (as well as David) was indeed saved eternally with the same eternal salvation that we receive today.

Where did Abraham and David go when they died? 

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22 minutes ago, SureWord said:

You'd be hard pressed to find the gospel of the death, burial and resurrection being preached or believed in the OT.

You are not saved by your knowledge and facts of HOW Christ saved us. Rather you are saved by faith in Christ. The OT believer had faith in Christ for their salvation and were saved by that faith alone.

John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

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1 minute ago, OlBrotherDC said:

Where did Abraham and David go when they died? 

First, why is this even relevant to whether they received the same eternal justification, forgiveness, imputation, and salvation as we do today?  (Somehow you seem to be equating some "place" with the "gift" of justification, forgiveness, imputation, and salvation; yet they are not the same thing.)

Second, I do NOT agree with you (as per your earlier posting) on this point.  I would contend that they went straight to heaven.

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14 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

First, why is this even relevant to whether they received the same eternal justification, forgiveness, imputation, and salvation as we do today?  (Somehow you seem to be equating some "place" with the "gift" of justification, forgiveness, imputation, and salvation; yet they are not the same thing.)

I do believe they received all of these things we received, I just don't believe they received it in their life on Earth in the same manner as we do. They could not be cleansed until the cross, eternal salvation wasn't finished until Jesus said, "It is Finished". John 19:30

 

14 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Second, I do NOT agree with you (as per your earlier posting) on this point.  I would contend that they went straight to heaven.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:13

Edited by OlBrotherDC
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37 minutes ago, OlBrotherDC said:

I do believe they received all of these things we received, I just don't believe they received it in their life on Earth in the same manner as we do. 

Romans 4:3 -- "For what saith the scripture?  Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."  That particular event is recorded in Genesis 15:6 as occurring in Abraham's lifetime.  

Romans 4:6-8 -- "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.  Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin."  This particular declaration David presented concerning himself within his lifetime in Psalm 32:1-2 under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit.

In fact, the apostle Paul under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit in Romans 4:9-11 specifically attributed Abraham's justification and imputed righteousness as occurring within his lifetime, while he was in uncircumcision, and that the Lord God specifically gave him the sign of circumcision (within his lifetime) as "a seal of the righteousness of faith which he had [not which he had to wait for] yet being uncircumcised."

Indeed, the apostle Paul under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit revealed in Romans 4:11 that this is the very reason that Abraham is "the father of ALL them that believe."  Furthermore, in Romans 4:23-24 the apostle Paul declared under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit -- "Now it was not written for his [Abraham's] sake alone, that it was imputed to him; but for us also, to whom it [the same righteousness of the Lord] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead."  According to this passage of God's Holy Word, the justification and imputation of righteousness that Abraham experienced (in his lifetime) is the very same that we New Testament believers also experience.

Concerning the other matter --

37 minutes ago, OlBrotherDC said:

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 3:13

When do you believe that David actually did "ascend" into heaven?

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar, spelling, punctuation
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2 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Romans 4:3 -- "For what saith the scripture?  Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."  That particular event is recorded in Genesis 15:6 as occurring in Abraham's lifetime.  

I have no doubt that Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness, but the object of this faith was not the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ like ours is today. I am not questioning in any way that faith in God's revelation in the appropriate dispensation is the means by which we are saved and have always been saved.

Was Abel saved by his Faith in Christ?  

By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. Hebrews 11:4 

I see faith in God. Faith that led to action! I see no Death, Burial, and Resurrection. 

 

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Hebrews 11:5

Enoch had faith, and he was saved because he pleased God through his faith, but again no mention of the Death, Burial, and resurrection. 

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

I agree that faith is ABSOLUTELY necessary. 

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Hebrews 11:7

Noah had faith, enough faith that he took action to do what God had told him to do. No Death, burial, and resurrection. 

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. Hebrews 11:8

Abraham had faith, and OBEYED, not the belief in the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus, but in the specific commands God had given to him, I believe this is what was counted to him for righteousness. 

Are you saying all these people were saved by placing their faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ like we are today? 

25 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

When do you believe that David actually did ascend into heaven?

I believe that all OT believers(who had placed their FAITH in the instruction given to them by God in their respective dispensation)went to Abraham's Bosom (NOT HELL) and were saved when Jesus finished the work of eternal salvation on the cross and overcame death. I would think that they ascended to Heaven sometime around the Resurrection of Christ. 

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32 minutes ago, OlBrotherDC said:

all these people were saved by placing their faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ

You are moving the focus of faith off of Christ and onto his acts. This is called "moving the goal post". We are not saved "by our faith in the death, burial, and resurrection" but rather by our faith in Christ. The acts of Christ in HIS Death Burial and Resurrection provided the way of salvation but knowledge of those facts does not save. Rather, our faith is IN CHRIST places is into HIM and only then do we become partakers in His salvation. OT believers IN CHRIST receive the same Blessings without full knowledge of HIS acts to provide that salvation, just as much as do we NT believers who have Knowledge of HIS acts. 

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Edited by John Young
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