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Further Warning About Grace Baptist-Way of Life


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I wanted to post this, sort of as an addendum to what I spoke on in another post on David Cloud and timing of the rapture. It is not done as contention, just to delve a little deeper into the subject, if there is interest in discussion. Good-natured, kind, Christian conversation. 

On February 26, I published “Another Church Enters the Post-Tribulational Wilderness.”

It is a warning about the very sad and disturbing change in doctrine at Grace Baptist Bible Church of Newcastle, NSW.

From the first time I heard that the preachers at Grace had rejected the Pre-tribulational Rapture and were wandering in the tribulational wilderness, I had hoped and prayed that they stop going down that road.

Tribulational wilderness is an apt term. To reject the Pre-tribulational Rapture is to believe that New Testament saints will go through at least part of the tribulation, if not all of it. The views of Mid-tribulation Rapture, Pre-wrath Rapture, and Post-tribulation Rapture land one in a wilderness of uncertainty. It is impossible to interpret prophecy in a consist literal manner and hold any of these views; one must spiritualize at least some of the prophecies, which I refuse to do.

These men are showing every sign of being true heretics, so I am repeating my warning of February 26 and adding some relevant information. I do not believe that their heresies will end with a rejection of the Pre-tribulational Rapture, because there is something strange going on at a heart level, which has surprised me and many others who have tried to help them.

It is sad that this issue would come to the fore among fundamental Baptist churches in Australia at a time when they need to be focused on standing against the
invasion of a contemporary evangelical philosophy (“judge not, lighten up, don’t be so strict, keep the message positive, don’t be divisive, don’t warn, be cool, treat music and dress as non-issues, downplay separation, broaden the tent”).

Our prayer about this matter.

God is on the throne and all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.

We are praying that, and believing that, this issue will stir up many preachers to be more serious in their study of prophecy, more diligent in teaching and preaching it, more zealous about the imminency of Christ’s return, more studious and passionate in all areas of the ministry, more aggressively protective of the flocks, and more careful about church membership and discipline.

We are praying that many churches will experience spiritual revival because of this.


I am very encouraged.

As for me, I am very encouraged these days. The Lord is so very good. It is so wonderful to be able to face old age in Christ and in God’s will and in the sure hope of eternal life. This is the gift of grace that the Son of God purchased with His own blood. One day I will die, but I will be more alive than I have ever been.

By God’s grace, we have kept our hands to the plow in our foreign missionary work since we first began it in 1979 when we were 30-year-old kids, and today we are seeing great fruit in souls saved (turn around and go the other way, changed from the inside out conversions), in the spiritual growth of the church members, in the surrender of young people to God’s perfect will and the renunciation of their secular dreams, and in
true unity. The church split a couple of years ago was very hard, but it has proven to be a great blessing in the purifying of the congregation to have the Acts 2:42 church that we have longed for and labored for. The Judas preachers stole more than $40,000 and half the members, but the church has remained self-supporting, the offerings have increased, and the membership has doubled in size. The Judas preachers have threatened to harm us in various ways, but by God’s grace all they have been able to do is huff and puff and gradually disappear like a salted slug. Their boomerang missed and is coming back on their own heads.

New doors are opening for preaching the gospel with the potential for starting new churches.

We are seeing excellent fruit from the preaching and teaching in many places by the writing ministry. I receive communications from preachers and teachers
every day, thanking me for the materials, many of them very fervent in expression. God put Way of Life Literature on my heart as a new Christian in about 1974, one day when I was reading Proverbs 6:23, and God is so richly blessing this ministry these days that I can’t keep up with the blessings.

I have very good health for the time being, though one never knows about tomorrow. I had a major heart attack in 2018 and nearly died. Many were sad about that, but others were glad. But there was no permanent heart damage and I’m doing my prayer power walk most days, two miles in a half hour. Old age is like the optimist who fell off the Empire State Building, and as he passed the 90th floor, someone heard him say, “So far, so good.”

I am accomplishing more than I ever have, preaching and teaching in the weekly church services, in our full-time Bible college, and in the multi-day Bible conferences we have two or three times a year, gospel tract distribution, gospel Bible studies, writing new Bible courses, writing verse-by-verse commentaries, not to speak of daily FBIS articles and the weekly
Friday Church News Notes and the monthly O Timothy magazine, traveling on research and preaching trips, enjoying times with my wife in our very comfy easy chairs (not recliners) and on dates, enjoying hearing from my kids and grandkids, watching (online) a 14-year-old and a 13-year-old grandkid get baptized recently, having shown good evidence of salvation for some time.

It doesn’t get any better that this. I am living out the reality of Psalm 37:4, “Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.”


Now, back to this business at Grace Baptist Bible Church.

They have endless questions.

One man of God who tried to help one of the preachers at Grace said to me, “We supported ------ for years in prayer and gifts but cannot continue our gifts. I am corresponding with him but find that he only raises questions. He is not able to expound scripture, just attack and question the truth. He airs his ignorance.”

Endless questioning is a mark of a heretic.


They are deceiving.

I don’t know any softer way to characterize what they are doing. They are saying and implying that no one loves them enough to help them, that everyone has quickly rejected them, that no one will answer their questions, that Independent Baptists are mean-spirited, etc. The truth is that some men have spent a lot of time trying to help them.

I spent time trying to help them, even though they are pretending that I didn’t. I have a record of all of that communication. When they sloughed off everything of substance I had to say and misconstrued what I was trying to say, turning it against me, I decided that it would be a waste of time to answer further questions. And why should I have to give a personal answer to questions when the answers are already in print and have been print for more than 100 years? There are no new questions and no new answers on this issue.

These men were educated at Sydney Baptist Bible College and had two years of Bible prophecy under a capable man of God. They should have been 2 Timothy 2:15 students and settled the right division of God’s Word
then, before being ordained and before starting churches. The should have understood and settled the fundamental fact that the timing of the Rapture is not decided by any one verse; it is decided by an understanding of prophecy as a whole, interpreted from a literal standpoint. It is decided by a right understanding of Israel and the Church. It is decided by a right understanding of the imminency of Christ’s return as taught by the apostles in their epistles to the churches. It is decided by a right understanding of the day of the Lord and of prophecies such as Jeremiah 30:7 and Daniel 12:1 and God’s promise that church-age saints will be saved from the wrath to come. It is decided by a right understanding of Daniel’s great 70 Week prophecy.

I have the names on file of seven other preachers who have graciously spent time with them on this issue, and there are others, as well. Some men have spent entire days with them. Many have talked with them on the phone. Some of these preachers are very well educated in Bible prophecy. I have copies of some of the communications.

One Australian preacher told me, “Your experience with them resonates with mine too. Their attitude toward me has shifted even though I gave them hours of time I needed elsewhere. They claim that you never answered Joshua's 'rebuttal' of your article, so I did, and they haven't answered it.”

Another Australian preacher, who has focused on prophetic studies for many decades, has tried to help one of the preachers at Grace and even invited that preacher to spend a week at his home dealing with the Scriptures.

Does this sound like no one has tried to help them and no one has answered their questions?

Lying is a mark of a heretic.


They don’t receive the truth.

The fact is that all of their questions have been answered, and the doctrine of the Pre-tribulational Rapture has been demonstrated to them, but they aren’t receiving the truth.

Endless questioning combined with a refusal to receive the truth is the mark of a heretic.


They are trying to hide behind a smokescreen.

The sole issue here is their doctrine. Everything else is a smokescreen.

Instead of owning up to the fact that they have rejected the doctrine of the Pre-tribulational Rapture and letting the chips fall where they may, they are raising all sorts of other issues.

They are using the cheap tactic of attacking the messenger instead of dealing with the message.

They are using the cheap tactic of claiming that someone wouldn’t talk to them on the phone. I have been in the ministry for going on 50 years, and there is a time to talk on the phone or face to face, and there is a time to deal with issues by other methods. There is a time to have a written or recorded record of the conversation. There is a time when an issue should be dealt with in writing. In a phone conversation, the parties don’t have opportunity to pray about things and weigh things and research things. Such things are best done in writing. Either way, the phone thing is a cheap smokescreen. If I didn’t talk on the phone with them, many others did.

The fundamental issue is that they have heard the Pre-tribulational Rapture and have rejected it. That they are wandering in a wilderness of not knowing the timing of the Rapture is neither here nor there. That’s where you end up when you reject the Pre-tribulational Rapture. I thank Joshua Koura for manning up and stating plainly to me that he no longer believes the Pre-tribulational Rapture. When I asked Pastor Charlie, “Do you believe in a Pre-tribulational Rapture,” he refused to answer, but that
is the answer. He is the founding pastor, and he has allowed this mess to develop and to continue without shutting it down.

Fudging and hiding behind smokescreens and not being candid about what you believe is the mark of a heretic.


They have become of strange spirit and hateful and slanderous.

They are half my age, but they have ordered me around as if I were just another of their young associates (all the while pretending to be humble and, oh, so loving). They have demanded that I answer every question to their satisfaction, that I turn aside from what I am doing and spend a lot of time dealing with this issue, that I talk on the phone with them, etc. They have rebuked me and publicly tried to injure my reputation for not jumping through their hoops and dancing to their tune.

They have charged those who use my material as blind followers of “the Baptist pope,” which is absolutely ridiculous, as the Lord knows. In fact, I have been called that before, but it is a vicious slander. I don’t want anyone to follow me, and to my knowledge, no one does. I have described my credentials at times, but I have not puffed myself up. In fact, I humbled myself before those young preachers as an Agur. “Surely I
am more brutish than any man, and have not the understanding of a man. I neither learned wisdom, nor have the knowledge of the holy” (Proverbs 30:2-3). Anyone who knows me knows that I am strictly a “Bible as sole authority preacher,” and I teach God’s people to test everything and every preacher by Scripture. That is one of my theme songs. I absolutely despise preachers who require unquestioning loyalty of people and who hold themselves up as the authority.

In fact, they have slandered pretty much everyone who has tried to help them and have slandered those who have left the church over this mess.

If they renounce their heresy, I will re-examine this issue, but until then I will obey God’s Word, as follows:

“But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself” (Titus 3:9-11).

The terms “heretic” and “heresy” refer to a willful choosing of error. The Greek
hairetikos, translated “heresy” in Titus 3:10, is from hairtezo, which is translated “chosen” in Mt. 12:18. A heretic has a heart problem, not an ignorance problem. Heresy is a work of the flesh (Ga. 5:20). An individual can be sincerely ignorant of sound doctrine, but the evidence that he is not a heretic will be clear when he responds to the sound teaching of God’s Word and rejects error. A heretic will not receive the truth.

Biblical heresies come in two categories. First, there are “damnable heresies” (2 Pe. 2:1), which are heresies that bring eternal judgment. In this verse, Peter gives an example of a damnable heresy: “
denying the Lord that bought them.” Any false teaching about the Person of Jesus Christ or His substitutionary atonement brings damnation because this is a false christ and a false gospel.

But heresies are not limited to fundamental errors. In 1 Corinthians 11:19,
hairesis is used for error pertaining to the practice of the Lord’s Supper. A true brother in Christ can “walk disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received,” and he is to be noted and separated from (2 Th. 3:6-15).

For more about heretics, see the report “
Dealing with Heretics” at the Way of Life web site.
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So what DO you hope to achieve by posting about church that you have never heard of before, that will have no influence on you or your church, and that is based half the world away?

I don't understand.....

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Posted (edited)

As I subscribe to David Cloud's newsletter I had previously read the above mentioned article on  Another Church Enters the Post-Tribulational Wilderness.”

As far as the information concerning the "Post-Tribulation" view is concerning, brother David is correct and he, brother Cloud, is being attacked by the brethren by slander, maligning, and false information. And, that the doctrine of the post-tribulation coming of Christ is heretical.

Also, I especially like, and agree with, the title of brother Clouds article"... the Post-Tribulational Wilderness." The more that I study the teachings of the post-tribulation rapture the more it is obvious it is a false teaching and a endless "wilderness."

The Lord Jesus can come today with no signs that need to be fulfilled: especially, the events of the appearing of the anti-Christ and the events of Revelation chapter 6-19.

Edited by Alan
doubled words (2)
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What I dont understand is the treating of the issue as heresy. Yes, I believe that the post-trib rapture view is incorrect, but does every difference of opinion over doctrine have to be treated as actual heresy? When we do this, it weakens the charge against actual, serious heresy, like denying the divinity of Christ, the resurection or or the second coming. No one is denying anythig, just disagreeing on the timing of it all.

Is wisdom not, in part, learning to pick our battles?

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1 hour ago, DaveW said:

So what DO you hope to achieve by posting about church that you have never heard of before, that will have no influence on you or your church, and that is based half the world away?

I don't understand.....

As far as I know, David Cloud is not on this site. You'll have to ask him yourself. /tongue-in-cheek

Seriously, DaveW, let's give it a break on the whole defending-David-Cloud bit. No one's out to attack him. The church and the subject were brought up by another member; UkeMike is just continuing the discussion on tribulational doctrine in the churches. Can we focus on that, please? 

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1 hour ago, DaveW said:

So what DO you hope to achieve by posting about church that you have never heard of before, that will have no influence on you or your church, and that is based half the world away?

I don't understand.....

Well, seeing as how it is a church that none of us have heard of, why has it become such an issue to make public by Bro. Cloud? I understand the need to go public with those who have a wide-reaching influence, but they don't seem quite that influential. I did, by the way, go to their website, and read their side of the issue, and they don't seem particularly antagonistic to him, though they return the charge by Cloud of being aggressive in the emails exchanged, and honestly, from what they said, they don't seem to have taken that specific position, but in doing group studies, the question came up, and I think they sought to him for some clarification, as a part of study, not so much as a straight-up disagreement and argument.

It may, perhaps, be due to Bro. Cloud's tendency to sometimes not go far enough into correspondences to him, due to a very busy schedule. I know by experience, when my wife emailed him a question-no charge, no argument, but asking him a question, and he never emailed her back, but quoted her in another article, a very small part of her comment, as being one of his crazier critics, completely mischaracterizing her email. Again, he may just be so busy he just can't put his full attention to such things, and as such can miss points, or come across harsher than he intends. In fact, he really doesn't take many personal correspondences due to that, so I give him the benefit of the doubt. I prefer to use his books and resources, as they are generally very good and profitable for study and teaching, and keep from personal emails to him. 

But yes, as mentioned above, the question lies in, Is the subject of the timing such a major issue that it is both considered heresy to take the post-trib stand, or even to consider it? It is a dangerous thing to reach a point that ew assume we have it all figured out. I am not tossed about by every wind of doctrine, but neither do I think I am so perfect in my understanding that I won't accept a challenge to what I believe and delve deeper to study it out. I have done that recently with a fellow who believes we must keep the law of Sinai, and while I know that isn't the case, I took his challenge to study it out, and came back to where I had been, even stronger and with more evidence to back it, though he refuses to accept any of it and rejects any NT argument against OT matters. Sad, but that's why contentions about the law are unprofitable and vain.

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2 hours ago, Alan said:

As I subscribe to David Cloud's newsletter I had previously read the above mentioned article on  Another Church Enters the Post-Tribulational Wilderness.”

As far as the information concerning the "Post-Tribulation" view is concerning, brother David is correct and he, brother Cloud, is being attacked by the brethren by slander, maligning, and false information. And, that the doctrine of the post-tribulation coming of Christ is heretical.

Also, I especially like, and agree with, the title of brother Clouds article"... the Post-Tribulational Wilderness." The more that I study the teachings of the post-tribulation rapture the more it is obvious it is a false teaching and a endless "wilderness."

The Lord Jesus can come today with no signs that need to be fulfilled: especially, the events of the appearing of the anti-Christ and the events of Revelation chapter 6-19.

That there are no signs to be fulfilled, I don't know that I agree with you. When the Thessalonian church was concerned that Christ had already raptured the church and they had missed out, Paul gave them some assurance, 
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God." (2Thes 2:1-4)

Here, Paul tells them not to be concerned because that day won't come EXCEPT there come a falling away FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed...seem that he is telling them that the rapture, the coming of Christ, won't happen until AFTER the falling away and the revealing of the Beast. I guess our question here would be, What is "the day of Christ"? Is that the rapture and resurrection, or the full second coming after the 7 years when He comes to reign? If we go by his reassurances to them in 1Thes 4, which specifically concerns the rapture, and 1Thes 5, which also speaks of the Lord coming as a thief in the night, which we know refers to the rapture, (where he also says believers wont be taken unaware because we are children of the day and the light), then contextually, this was their concern and this is what he is speaking of here in 2Thes 2, as well. So first must come a falling away and the revealing of the Beast. Sounds like Paul is giving them two signs that need yet to be fulfilled.

But maybe I'm completely wrong. Please give me your understanding of it. 

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Posted (edited)

Ukulelmemike,

In other threads the issue has been brought forth and discussed. The above reference is one of them. The problem lies in just referring to 2  Thessalonians 2:1-4 and neglecting, or twisting the clear meaning in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8. The apostle Paul  clearly shows, in 2:6-8, that once the Holy Spirit, that resides in the church age saints, and hinders, or 'letteth,'  is taken out of the way, the antichrist is revealed. The revealing of the son of perdition, the antichrist, is revealed in Revelation 6:1. Then, in Revelation 6-19 we have the rest of the events, or signs, or prophecies, take place. I do not intend to rehash the events of Revelation 6-19 in this thread nor discuss the events of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 anymore in this thread as I am sure I know exactly where you are heading for.

It is my personal belief that this thread, as with the previous thread concerning brother Cloud, is intended to malign, and cause doubt on the pre-tribulation coming of Christ  and not a sincere attempt to know the truth.

Alan

 

Edited by Alan
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On 3/12/2020 at 5:52 AM, Alan said:

Ukulelmemike,

In other threads the issue has been brought forth and discussed. The above reference is one of them. The problem lies in just referring to 2  Thessalonians 2:1-4 and neglecting, or twisting the clear meaning in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8. The apostle Paul  clearly shows, in 2:6-8, that once the Holy Spirit, that resides in the church age saints, and hinders, or 'letteth,'  is taken out of the way, the antichrist is revealed. The revealing of the son of perdition, the antichrist, is revealed in Revelation 6:1. Then, in Revelation 6-19 we have the rest of the events, or signs, or prophecies, take place. I do not intend to rehash the events of Revelation 6-19 in this thread nor discuss the events of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 anymore in this thread as I am sure I know exactly where you are heading for.

It is my personal belief that this thread, as with the previous thread concerning brother Cloud, is intended to malign, and cause doubt on the pre-tribulation coming of Christ  and not a sincere attempt to know the truth.

Alan

 

I have never held that 2Thes 2:7 is necessarily speaking of the Holy Ghost, and His being taken out of the way being the rapture-again, this is where I say there is a lot of assumption related to all these positions. There isn't a shred of evidence this is the Holy Ghost, and in fact, there is evidence that He will be present and active during the great tribulation. When the 144,000 male virgin Jew witnesses are sealed, what are they sealed with? Now scripturally, I can say with confidence that there is only ONE sealer,

" And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph 4:30)     

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," (Eph 1:13)

If it is God the Holy Spirit that seals, who or what will seal the believers during the tribulation, and thus, protect them? We have precedent in scripture that the Holy Spirit will NOT be taken out of the way.   As well, to speak of God the Spirit as being 'taken out of the way', that sounds like something that would be done to a subordinate, not to God. Will God be taken out of the way?  Also, in Daniel, we see that it is Michael that is tasked with fighting Satan, that Michael could easily be he that letteth, and, being a subordinate, he might be seen to be 'taken out of the way', as in receiving an order to step aside.

All assumptions, all conjectures, but no more so than the alternative.

 

     
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Posted (edited)

I never said, nor do I believe, that the Holy Spirit, does not work, nor does not seal, the believers during the Tribulation Period, nor that the Holy Spirit does not work in the Tribulation Period. Again, due to twisting what I say, and what others say, this is why I do not want to discuss this issue with you, or with anyone who believes in the post-tribulation rapture view.

Also, according to Revelation 7:2, an angel seals the 144,000 Jewish evangelists.

Also, as with the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit will come on the prophets as in the Old Testament and God will deal with world as He dealt with them as under the Jewish economy; not the church economy.

The assumptions, and the conjectures, of the post-tribulation teachers are the ones who are causing the mass confusion, and twisting of the scriptures, in the churches: not the pre-tribulationists.

 

 

Edited by Alan
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But the whole idea is that the Holy Spirit must be removed from earth before the Antichrist can be freed to work. It has nothing to do with what YOU say or don't say, that is the standard belief-the holy Spirit is removed, or 'taken out of the way', then the Antichrist appears-but how then does He continue to work in believers, if that work is what 'lets', and must end before the Antichrist can do his activities?

 

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I am no theologian on this subject and do not wish to get into any dispute over meanings that are not clear. But in the interest of putting the subject of The Holy Spirit being the one that "lets", which also includes Him being "taken out of the way" at a specified time, I would like to pose a question that I have not seen considered.

Question: When the Scripture says that He is "taken out of the way", speaking of Him as the withholding force, why do some assume, without confirmation, that The Holy Spirit is removed from all interaction with Christians or anyone else by being removed from the earth?

The context is clearly stating that He is taken out of the way solely in regard to The Anti Christ being revealed.

My mind reasons that if He is taken out of the way only in regard to this one work, why would anyone assume that He would be "taken out of the way" in regard to all of His other work which would include "sealing", "teaching", "convicting" and "empowering"?

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

I am no theologian on this subject and do not wish to get into any dispute over meanings that are not clear. But in the interest of putting the subject of The Holy Spirit being the one that "lets", which also includes Him being "taken out of the way" at a specified time, I would like to pose a question that I have not seen considered.

Question: When the Scripture says that He is "taken out of the way", speaking of Him as the withholding force, why do some assume, without confirmation, that The Holy Spirit is removed from all interaction with Christians or anyone else by being removed from the earth?

The context is clearly stating that He is taken out of the way solely in regard to The Anti Christ being revealed.

My mind reasons that if He is taken out of the way only in regard to this one work, why would anyone assume that He would be "taken out of the way" in regard to all of His other work which would include "sealing", "teaching", "convicting" and "empowering"?

He would NOT be.  In my opinion, the idea that the Holy Spirit is presented as being removed from the earth altogether in any manner is a false view of this passage.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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In the interest of Independent Baptist fellowship, a place to interact with other Independent Baptists and in deference to BroMatt's Board Rules which state this: ""We will not allow the following
a) Bashing of other message boards. 
b) Bashing of your pastor or church. ** Online Baptist is a place for fellowship, disagreements you may have with others should not be handled here.
c) Members that come just to argue doctrine instead of fellowship.

I am going to lock this thread. This is an attempt to start anew, so please, if anyone wants to discuss the timing of the raptures, start another thread after first searching to see if there is a already a thread on this subject that you can reply to.
 

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