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This is my first time on here. I’m an Australian IB Pastor’s daughter. There’s smoke everywhere over here, just by the way. My friends house burnt down the other day.

One of the churches that we have had an interface with have suddenly come out as Post-Trib. If anyone knows David Cloud, he was out here just recently and did a full series of meetings with them and then found out AFTERWARDS (from my pastor brother) that they’ve been “studying” the subject of prophecy all year, and hey presto! The church is in for the guillotein. I’ve got friends in that church, and now they’re telling me they’re post-trib. It’s a bit lonely here in Australia. Most of our churches are hundreds of km apart. Apparently the States sometimes has more than one IB church in a big town! I can’t believe it! They must have more friends too then to make up for any losses.

I was just wondering if anyone has any helpful thoughts on a post-trib view (or pre-trib view, depending how you look at it).

As far as I can see, we are not appointed to wrath (and that meaning the whole 7 year tribulation). God will keep us “from the hour of temptation” that will come upon the whole earth”. 

 

 

Edited by LYDIA WESTERN
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1 hour ago, LYDIA WESTERN said:

I was just wondering if anyone has any helpful thoughts on a post-trib view (or pre-trib view, depending how you look at it).

Just remember Post-Trib rapture comes from the Reformed Covenant theology that says Israel and the church is the continuation of the same national covenant. (They believe God switched from the physical nation in the OT to a spiritual nation in the NT, and that the physical no longer has rights to the convent). This means that when Christ returns to gather the elect "after the tribulation" they believe this  means the rapture of the church and not the regathering of Israel. They believe "elect" is referring to the church believers and the rapture. So every thing referring Christ returning with the angels is to "rapture the church" and then deposit OT saved Israelites from heaven back to Israel. They believe The return of Christ is the gathering of the elect is the same as the Rapture of the church and the 144,000 come from heaven to earth. 

Pre-trib rapture comes form Dispensation theology which states the church and Israel are separate covenants and both continue into the NT. They believe The Rapture of the church, the return of Christ, and the regathering of Israel are all separate events. The believe the return of Christ with the angels "after the tribulation" to gather the elect means to gather the 144,000 Israelite to Jerusalem. The Rapture of the church however occurs by the Spirit leaving earth before "Jacob's trouble" (Israel's tribulation week).

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Hello Lydia! Glad to have you here. Sorry to hear that your friends house burnt down the other day. The folks here are interested in Australia, their problems, the recent fires for example, and for the proclamation of the gospel in Australia. Recently a close pastor friend of mine, Pastor Shane Mallard, started on the deputation trail for Australia. 

Most folks here are familiar with brother David Cloud and highly respect him for his work as a missionary and in his publication, "O Timothy" magazine and fine books. I am sure that he wants to be a blessing to the folks at the church that he visited in Australia and help them in the correct biblical view of the pre-tribulation coming of Christ, the rapture, of the church.

Most folks here are of the pre-tribulation rapture of the church position.

After a careful study of the scriptures, both in the Old Testament and in the New Testament, it is my firm conviction that the pre-tribulation teaching is correct and that, as John explained briefly, why the post-trib rapture teaching is incorrect. What John Young wrote is entirely true and if you have specific questions why he said what he did he could explain in detail.

I am sure that if you have a specific passage that you have a question about the timing (not the exact date but whether the rapture is before or after the 7-Year Tribulation Period), or another question concerning why some folks believe in the post-trib position, we would gladly like to discuss it.

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Thankyou Mr. Young and Allan.

The funny thing is they have kept the distinction between church and Israel.

That’s interesting about your friend deputising for Australia. There are about 180 I.B churches in Australia. Most are in NSW, QLD and VIC. There are about 3 in Tasmania and 1 in Northern Territory. There are about 9 in South Australia (where I was born), 5 of which are in Adelaide city. My Dad started the first I.B church in South Australia about forty some years ago after coming back from bible college in Springfield Massouri (sorry can’t spell). He was actually raised church of Christ and had never heard of the I.Bs because there were hardly any in Australia back then. Actually there was one church called Calvary Baptist in S.A that had been going a year before he started his but he was almost the first anyway. Might aswell have been, there wasn’t anyone around. It was called Northside Baptist Church. Now my brother Simeon Western pastors the church. It wasn’t planned. There have been other pastors between Dad and him but that’s what ended up happening. We actually live in Bathurst, N.S.W now. 

The churches here are typically between 60-80 people. A hundred or more is considered big. Churches of 30-50 are very common also. Apart from the cities, churches are typically hundreds of KM apart. America has about 25 times the number of I.B churches as Australia. I believe you have around 9,200 or something like that. Australia has about 180 - 200 maybe that any one directory is aware of. Certainly not thousands anyway. 

There is not the same “circulation of the saints” over here, so the people you keep are those you win. Church growth here is quite slow and it is not because the pastors are necessarily doing anything wrong. So your brother in the Lord needn’t feel discouraged if it is not a fast growth. I know American missionaries that have been pastoring a flock of about twenty to thirty for years. Others have more but most churches are under a hundred. 

When Dad came back from the States, he did what he was taught to do when doing soul winning. But he couldn’t understand why people would pray and then not be interested and not come back. It worked well in the States. He eventually worked out that the Australians don’t have the Biblical background that Americans do. Aussies are serious but there is a greater risk of “picking green fruit” over here. Also, getting them to come forward at an invitation often scared them off too. So he ended up getting them to just stand where they were f they had prayed and then sit back down. He focussed a bit more on getting them to come to church a bit and doing some home visits rather than pushing them all through too quickly. Unless they seemed really ready of course. That’s just something to watch out for. I’m very pleased with his desire to come, however. I hope we will get a chance to meet him sometime. It’s not too far fetched because like i said, there aren’t a lot of us.

anyway, sorry I’m off topic. Maybe I should repost this as “evangelism in Australia” lol

I’ll ask my questions in the post trib thing in a little bit. I have to run and teach piano for now.

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On 1/18/2020 at 1:47 AM, LYDIA WESTERN said:

suddenly come out as Post-Trib.

 

3 hours ago, LYDIA WESTERN said:

The funny thing is they have kept the distinction between church and Israel.

Such sudden change is probably the result of not being grounded in their professed doctrines in the first place. So when they were confronted with the Post trib view they were not able to explain the verses used in light of their professed theology. Rapture theology is considered an "end-result" theology. Which means it is built on the theology that comes before it and those who learn it don't realize its foundation doctrines so don't convert to the other theologies all at once. Don't be surprised if they come out in a year or two  as believing the Church replaces Israel as a nation and that God has given up on Israel as a nation and other views. Their new Post-Trib view, and the teachings of the one they learned it from will eventually change their foundational  dispensational views will slowly change to conform to Reformed covenant theology.

Edited by John Young
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Yes, I was actually thinking the same thing. David Cloud has done an extremely good job of trying to correct them, but they’re Arabs and it’s hard to change their mind. It’s a shame really. I know that Mr. Cloud and I both enjoyed the meetings that they had with him a few months ago. We had some good chats together. Actually, it was my brother, Simeon, who found out about it and let Mr. Cloud know. They’ve been back and forwards about it.

I was just interested to hear what anyone else had to add. I think you’re right though. They didn’t have a good understanding of pre-trib to start with. But false doctrine is also leaven and there is something appealing about it. It’s strange. 

I saw one of their “study sheets” that they had done up. They took Matthew 24 and ran it down the page chronologically and then added to the right all the verses from Thessalonians and Corinthians etc. One of the older men in their church is an old pastor and prophecy is his sweet spot. But they just kept the doctrinal “study” as a secret from him and the other older men of the faith and then came out with it after a year of studying it in the closet. But they actually had let a post-trib man onto membership and that’s how it started. The pastor said that he didn’t want to see books or charts and that “David Cloud’s books aren’t inspired”. But then he wants everyone to read the charts that he comes up with. 

He’s coming out super heated and reactive. It’s really really shocking to see. So weird. He and his two right hand men are Arabs. Not that I have anything against Arabs, but it’s a hot blooded mix. It’s either very good or very bad.

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On ‎1‎/‎18‎/‎2020 at 1:47 AM, LYDIA WESTERN said:

This is my first time on here. I’m an Australian IB Pastor’s daughter. There’s smoke everywhere over here, just by the way. My friends house burnt down the other day.

One of the churches that we have had an interface with have suddenly come out as Post-Trib. If anyone knows David Cloud, he was out here just recently and did a full series of meetings with them and then found out AFTERWARDS (from my pastor brother) that they’ve been “studying” the subject of prophecy all year, and hey presto! The church is in for the guillotein. I’ve got friends in that church, and now they’re telling me they’re post-trib. It’s a bit lonely here in Australia. Most of our churches are hundreds of km apart. Apparently the States sometimes has more than one IB church in a big town! I can’t believe it! They must have more friends too then to make up for any losses.

I was just wondering if anyone has any helpful thoughts on a post-trib view (or pre-trib view, depending how you look at it).

As far as I can see, we are not appointed to wrath (and that meaning the whole 7 year tribulation). God will keep us “from the hour of temptation” that will come upon the whole earth”. 

 

 

I would say that Revelation 3, talking to the Philadelphia church, promised to be kept from that Hour, and also Chapter 4, when John goes up into heaven as a prefigure of the church rapturing out are the 2 best examples for pre trib. I see Mid trib supported by the 2 witnesses resurrecting to God mid trip, and also that the wrath of God starts mid trib, and the church is said to be spare the wrath of God. Post trib fits due to the fact that the second coming is  described to be the same event as what is called the rapture, as those holding to it see God protecting the Church as he did the Jews in Egypt during the plagues.

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At the LAST trump the Bible teaches. And they are the ones that came out of great tribulation it says in Revelation.  Jesus doesn’t come back twice to get his people.  He that shall endure unto the end the same shall be saved.  But the good news is that he will never leave us nor forsake us.  He said look up for your redemption draws nigh.  Though the mountains and hills be cast into the sea we will not be moved. He is our Rock and salvation.    Most people are deceived in this matter not understanding the nature of the tribulation or the book of Revelation.  We look for a new heavens and a new earth as it states in Isaiah and 2nd Peter; not a millennial rule on this sin cursed earth. 

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On 4/8/2019 at 4:28 AM, Alan said:

 

Matthew 24:29, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.”

“… after the tribulation ...” these events will take place.

Matthew 24:30, “And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”

Revelation 1:7, “Behold, he cometh with clouds, and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindred's of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”

Revelation 1:7 is the fulfillment of the prophecy by the prophet Zechariah. Zechariah 12:9-14, And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.”

Matthew 24:31 “And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

...with a great sound of a trumpet ...” In Numbers 10:1-10 God commanded Moses to have two trumpets of silver made for eight (8) reasons:

  1. For the calling of the assembly.”

  2. For the journeying of the camps.”

  3. For the princes to assemble at the tabernacle.”

  4. For an alarm.”

  5. For days of gladness.”

  6. For the solemn days.”

  7. For the beginning of the months.”

  8. For the sacrifice of the peace offerings.”

Two of the specific reasons was for the “calling of the assemblies and journeying of the camp.” Numbers 1:1 & 2, “And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Make thee two trumpets of silver; of a whole piece shalt thou make them: that thou mayest use them, for the calling of the assembly, and for the journeying of the camps.”

The context of the passage will tell us the reason for the blowing of the trumpet and who blows the trumpet. So, the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 was to call together, by angels, the Jews, the elect, from around the world to assemble the congregation in Israel. The 7 angels in Revelation 8:2 are given 7 trumpets to sound an alarm for war and for judgment and not for calling an assembly for any reason.

Therefore, the angels sounding trumpets in Matthew 24:31 are not connected to the 7 angels given 7 trumpets in Revelation 8:2

 

 

TomB,

The above study on the trumpets was taken from the following link:

 

3 hours ago, TomB said:

At the LAST trump the Bible teaches. And they are the ones that came out of great tribulation it says in Revelation.  Jesus doesn’t come back twice to get his people. 

TomB,

If you would carefully study the "Trumpets" in the Bible, in both the Old and New Testament, it is very clear that the7 trumpets in the book of Revelation, the trumpet in Matthew 24:31, and the "trump of God" as listed in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 are for different reasons and different times. The 7 trumpets in the book of Revelation are all for JUDGMENT and not for the calling of the assembly of Jews nor for the calling of the assembly of the church.

Alan

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Revelation 18 notes "trumpeters" (shall be heard no more in thee), so we can safely surmise that up to that point trumpeters were heard, and that means that trumpets had to be around.  But trumpets are not mentioned again in Scripture after that point, so the last trump was done away with just prior to Revelation 18:22.

That would have to be "the last trump", surely.

And the last mention of "horn" is in Revelation 17, but I don't think those ones "trumped" at all....... different kind of horn.🤣

I think have shown that the last trump was not one of the judgement trumpets at all, but some unknown bloke playing just before Revelation 18.

I think I may have trumped you all.

Unless of course the last trump spoken of is Donald - does he have a son to carry on the name, or is he "the last Trump"?

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There will be Christians on earth until the Last Day.  Jesus said THE SAME DAY that Noah entered their ark the flood came and destroyed all. Also the SAME DAY that Lot left Sodom, fire and brimstone destroyed all.  Then he said EVEN THUS shall it be when the son of man is revealed. Two shall be in the field and the other left.  Look up for your redemption draws nigh. We are appointed to tribulation but not wrath.  Don’t confuse the Scriptures with many different last trumps or throne judgements.  The sun will be darkened when they shall say “peace and safety”.  I look for that new heavens and a new earth.  The Day of the Lord is at hand when he shall give a shout. The greatest earthquake ever will also commence.  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with him to meet the Lord in the air.  It’s really not complicated.    

Edited by TomB
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2 hours ago, TomB said:

Etc.We are appointed to tribulation but not wrath.  Don’t confuse the Scriptures with many different last trumps or throne judgements.  The sun will be darkened when they shall say “peace and safety”.  I look for that new heavens and a new earth.  The Day of the Lord is at hand when he shall give a shout. The greatest earthquake ever will also commence.  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with him to meet the Lord in the air.  It’s really not complicated.    

Revelation 7:9,14
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; ...These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. greek Word is “THE great tribulation”. And this is still in the first half. 

And yes, there will be multitudes of Christians on earth during the tribulation who will be converted. And these same multitudes will be beheaded. Write down on a piece of paper all the things “us Christians” will go through. If the first half of the tribulation isn’t wrath, then what is it? 

You cant hang your hat on one assumption that the trumpet Paul was referring to in Thessalonians is the last trumpet judgement. The last trump was sounded when it was time to move camp. The first trumpet got everyone packing their tents up and then there were some other calls and then the last trump was when everyone left. Paul is using a picture like he often does. Anyway, it’s not clear enough to hang a whole doctrine on. Actually, Revelation was A.D 96. 1 Corinthians was A.D 59. How could Paul be referring to the last trump of a vision that hadn’t happened yet?

When the Lord said “and then shall be great tribulation”, in the Greek there is not the definite article “THE great tribulation” as present in the other tribulation mentions. Things will ramp up, yes, but once again, you can’t hang a whole doctrine on it and then try to wrench all the other scriptures around to fit it.

And besides, if the rapture happened at the mid-point, all of Israel would be raptured because they’re saved by that point at the time of the Russian-Muslim invasion. There would not BE an Israel. Because the Bible says that ALL Israel will be saved in that day when the Lord defends them. Israel as a nation wouldn’t exist anymore for when the Lord comes again. 

Also, would there be any sheep left to divide from the goats at the end? Nothing but goats left on earth, right? For the last half?

Edited by LYDIA WESTERN
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On 2/21/2020 at 8:26 PM, TomB said:

At the LAST trump the Bible teaches. And they are the ones that came out of great tribulation it says in Revelation.  Jesus doesn’t come back twice to get his people.  He that shall endure unto the end the same shall be saved.  But the good news is that he will never leave us nor forsake us.  He said look up for your redemption draws nigh.  Though the mountains and hills be cast into the sea we will not be moved. He is our Rock and salvation.    Most people are deceived in this matter not understanding the nature of the tribulation or the book of Revelation.  We look for a new heavens and a new earth as it states in Isaiah and 2nd Peter; not a millennial rule on this sin cursed earth. 

I’m sorry, but there’s no good news for the Christian during the tribulation. A multitude from all kindreds and tongues and nations are going to be beheaded. And just on the side? Try this.

Second seal - a great world war.

Third - begins the suffering of famine and inflation (the aftermath of war).

Fourth seal - war results in death, but in this case it totals one-fourth of the people and living creatures. By today’s population standards, that would amount to ONE AND A HALF BILLION PEOPLE. Whoops daysy.

Fifth - so many Christians slain that they can’t be numbered. 

Sixth - mighty earthquake, the like of which has never been experienced. It is so severe that people call on the rocks to fall on them.

Seventh - introduces the Seven Trumpet Judgments, ending the first quarter of the Tribulation period and preparing for an even worse period called the “day of His [God’s] wrath.”

First trumpet - one-THIRD of all trees and green grass being burned up by hail, fire, and blood cast upon the earth. 

Second trumpet - a great mountain of sulfur falling into the sea and destroying a THIRD-part of the sea and all living creatures in it and a third of the shipping vessels.

Third - causes a great star (or meteor) called Wormword (or “bitter”) to fall on the fountains of water and a THIRD of rivers to turn bitter, resulting in the deaths of millions.

Fourth - one-THIRD less sun, moonlight, and stars, extending the darkness of night.

Fifth trumpet - introduces hideous demon-like creatures such as scorpions and locusts out of the bottomless pit. Not able to kill men, they torture them so badly that they “will seek death and will not find it.”

Sixth trumpet - introduces two hundred million horsemen (demon spirit-like death angels), who kill one-THIRD of the people. This will occur between the fortieth and forty-second month of the first part of the Tribulation, which brings to 50 PERCENT the population that is destroyed by God before the midpoint of the Tribulation. These individuals have taken the mark of the Beast and are considered incorrigibles.

Since estimates of upwards of a quarter of those living at that time still be saved under the preaching of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:9, it is possible that 75 PERCENT  of the population 25 PERCENT by martyrdom) will have been destroyed during the first half of the Tribulation period.

So horrendous, so terrible that we can’t even imagine. And all in the space of three years. No wonder God said that unless he came again that there would be no flesh left on earth. Imagine at the end of all this saying....but this isn’t God’s wrath. It’s ALL God’s wrath. No WONDER the angel said. “These are they that have come out of [THE] great tribulation”. Greek Word definite article. 

A mark of false doctrine is when they take a few verses and then wrench everything else in to fit. The last trump referring to the last trumpet judgment, for example. Didn’t anyone think that Revelation hadn’t even been written yet when Paul wrote that? John hadn’t had the vision yet, so how could Paul be referring to it?

Revelation was A.D 96. 1 Corinthians was A.D 59. The revelation was to John for the first time. This was all completely new to John because he asked questions throughout. Thus “The Revelation”. Wouldn’t be a Revelation if he already knew about it all from Paul.

Edited by LYDIA WESTERN
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4 hours ago, TomB said:

To answer no nicolatains, endure means to outlast and stay strong through the tribulation and the hour of temptation.  Don’t give in to the worlds demands.  He will reward your faithfulness. 

HI Tom. Thank you for answering.

If I may ask (in regard to the same verse), what does "saved" mean?

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11 hours ago, LYDIA WESTERN said:

I’m sorry, but there’s no good news for the Christian during the tribulation. A multitude from all kindreds and tongues and nations are going to be beheaded. And just on the side? Try this.

Second seal - a great world war.

Third - begins the suffering of famine and inflation (the aftermath of war).

Fourth seal - war results in death, but in this case it totals one-fourth of the people and living creatures. By today’s population standards, that would amount to ONE AND A HALF BILLION PEOPLE. Whoops daysy.

Fifth - so many Christians slain that they can’t be numbered. 

Sixth - mighty earthquake, the like of which has never been experienced. It is so severe that people call on the rocks to fall on them.

Seventh - introduces the Seven Trumpet Judgments, ending the first quarter of the Tribulation period and preparing for an even worse period called the “day of His [God’s] wrath.”

First trumpet - one-THIRD of all trees and green grass being burned up by hail, fire, and blood cast upon the earth. 

Second trumpet - a great mountain of sulfur falling into the sea and destroying a THIRD-part of the sea and all living creatures in it and a third of the shipping vessels.

Third - causes a great star (or meteor) called Wormword (or “bitter”) to fall on the fountains of water and a THIRD of rivers to turn bitter, resulting in the deaths of millions.

Fourth - one-THIRD less sun, moonlight, and stars, extending the darkness of night.

Fifth trumpet - introduces hideous demon-like creatures such as scorpions and locusts out of the bottomless pit. Not able to kill men, they torture them so badly that they “will seek death and will not find it.”

Sixth trumpet - introduces two hundred million horsemen (demon spirit-like death angels), who kill one-THIRD of the people. This will occur between the fortieth and forty-second month of the first part of the Tribulation, which brings to 50 PERCENT the population that is destroyed by God before the midpoint of the Tribulation. These individuals have taken the mark of the Beast and are considered incorrigibles.

Since estimates of upwards of a quarter of those living at that time still be saved under the preaching of the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:9, it is possible that 75 PERCENT  of the population 25 PERCENT by martyrdom) will have been destroyed during the first half of the Tribulation period.

So horrendous, so terrible that we can’t even imagine. And all in the space of three years. No wonder God said that unless he came again that there would be no flesh left on earth. Imagine at the end of all this saying....but this isn’t God’s wrath. It’s ALL God’s wrath. No WONDER the angel said. “These are they that have come out of [THE] great tribulation”. Greek Word definite article. 

A mark of false doctrine is when they take a few verses and then wrench everything else in to fit. The last trump referring to the last trumpet judgment, for example. Didn’t anyone think that Revelation hadn’t even been written yet when Paul wrote that? John hadn’t had the vision yet, so how could Paul be referring to it?

Revelation was A.D 96. 1 Corinthians was A.D 59. The revelation was to John for the first time. This was all completely new to John because he asked questions throughout. Thus “The Revelation”. Wouldn’t be a Revelation if he already knew about it all from Paul.

John was describing the Great tribulation time that Jesus warned about while still here on the earth...

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All Israel will he saved yes. But who is Israel. A political nation? A nation with borders? Romans says a Jew is not one outwardly but inwardly. All believers are part of the nation of Israel. In another place it says the Israel of God. Moses said to circumcise the foreskins of your heart and be no more stiffnecked. That is more important than the physical act.  Jesus praised strangers with faith more than many Israelites. These are the true Israel of God and they will all be saved. There will be sheep and goats at the last day from the beginning of creation to the last day.  The rapture is at the last day. There will be no millennium on this sin cursed earth. Christ will come back with power and great glory, every eye shall see him. This is the last day, Judgement Day and the rapture all in the same day.  The next life will be the new heavens and the new earth.  I wouldn’t be so concerned about confusing tribulation and “the” tribulation, etc.  Jesus said immediately after “the” tribulation in those days the sun shall be darkened. He is speaking to his people that they will still be here and he commanded to remember lots wife. She looked back at the destruction and became a pillar of salt. Our hearts should be in heaven, not the world.   

Edited by TomB
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4 hours ago, TomB said:

All Israel will he saved yes. But who is Israel. A political nation? A nation with borders? Romans says a Jew is not one outwardly but inwardly. All believers are part of the nation of Israel.

The nation of Israel was established by the National Covenant at Mt. Sinai. It is not synonymous with the Old and New Testament Covenants which started with the first and second Adams and has different requirements to be part of then the testaments.

The early church made this distinction clear in Acts 15 and Acts 21 that entering the National Covenant of Israel was not a requirement for the gentiles nor was it the same covenant that you receive when you are saved by God. It was however still a covenant in effect for Jews who wished to identify with the nation of Israel.

To say otherwise is to contradict the Apostles and fundamentally misunderstand what Paul is teaching in regard to Being "Jewish".

Salvation, as Peter stated in Acts 15:11 is the same for all people: But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. James also makes clear in Acts 15:17-18 that of all people, including gentiles of old. that are called by his name who are saved and will be saved:  17 that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Paul is in agreement with this as well when he states that all people of every age is saved the same way, by calling on the name of the lord: Romans 10:11-13 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

While they all believe and taught that Salvation was the same for all people they rejected the idea that the National Israelite Covenant was for all people, that it was required for salvation, or that it was for all saved believers. They taught that the Household of Faith and the Israelite Nation were different and were entered differently. They did not teach that the National covenant suddenly became a spiritual national covenant for all believers. Rather they taught the spiritual household of faith for all believers in the Old Testament was "David's Tabernacle" and in the New Testament was rebuilt by Christ into what is now the Spiritual Body of Christ. What Paul teaches is that a Jew (someone in the national covenant of Israel) is nothing without Salvation. He is not teaching that saved gentiles are now the true Jew. Rather , he is teaching a Saved Jew is a true Jew.

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Part 2...

Take note of these verses from Acts 15: Acst 15:1-2 And certain men which came down from Judæa taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. [This was the mark of entering the National covenant, they were saying that they had to enter the national covenant before they could be saved by Christ] 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. [they believed without entering in to the national covenant] 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? [the Israel of old and the Jews of the day could not keep the national covenant as God demanded in order for the nation to be properly established] 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. [meaning that even though the Israelite and Jews could not keep the national covenant they were still saved the same way as the gentiles]12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, [the old testament version of the church, which was a covenant for all nations, Isaiah 56] which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. [A quote from Amos 9 which also makes clear the that the nation will be destroyed and Jacob will be scattered while the Tabernacle of David is rebuilt and then later that Jacob will return to reestablish the Nation of Israel] 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from  blood.  21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. [Meaning while christian Jews should not try to make gentiles convert, the Christian gentiles needed to make these concessions so that the Jews could keep their National covenant in good conscience and not be defiled when the gentiles meet with them in services.]

Part 3....

Acts 21:18-28 goes on to teach this: 18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe [Paul and James celibrate souls saved by faith in their ministries]; and they are all zealous of the law: [the issues then becomes about the national covenant of Israel] 21 and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. [A lot of people think that Paul is teaching to Jews to forsake the National Covenant but both Paul, James, and the other Apostles agree that this is NOT what Paul is teaching for the JEWS. Rather he teaches the National covenant e has nothing to do with one's salvation and that Gentiles should not try to keep it as part of their salvation or sanctification before God (just as Peter stated in acts 15:10)] 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. [Paul has always been an observant jew who kept the National covenant and James and Paul want to show this to the Jerusalem church] 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.[They were giving the offering of the Nazorite to bless their nation]27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him, 28 crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

 

In his defense Paul states clearly that he believes this physical nation to still be the Nation of Israel as seen in these verses:

Acts 24:10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:

Acts 24:17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.

Acts 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews;

Acts 28:19 But when the Jews spake against it, I was constrained to appeal unto Cæsar; not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.

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On 2/22/2020 at 1:31 AM, TomB said:

To answer no nicolatains, endure means to outlast and stay strong through the tribulation and the hour of temptation.  Don’t give in to the worlds demands.  He will reward your faithfulness. 

I can see that you and I disagree. I agree with part of you definition. Endure means to suffer; to last, or remain.

So...the Lord is referring to those who last (or remain) through the suffering of the Tribulation period. In other words...those who physically survive it.

Who are "those" people? Well, according to the context of the verse of scripture in question (taking into account the surrounding verses)...it's talking about the remnant of the nation of Israel. After all, just a few verses later, the Lord said to pray ye that your flight be not in the winter; neither on the sabbath day. Why would a Gentile believer be concerned over whether they had to flee on the sabbath?

Now...

What does "saved" mean? In God's word, do the words "save" or "saved" always refer to spiritual salvation? Let's look...
 

Quote

Matthew 8:25

And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.

 

Quote

Matthew 14:30

But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

 

Quote

Matthew 24:22

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

Quote

Matthew 27:49

The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.

 

Quote

Mark 15:30-31

30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross.

31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.

 

Quote

Luke 1:71

That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

 

There are many more, but that's a good verse to end this on...that we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us:

The verse in question is referring to the remnant of the Jews who will survive until the end of Tribulation period (those who endure), and as the book of Zechariah points out, they will be saved from sure and certain destruction when the Lord returns at the end of the Tribulation period.

Today, when we think of the words "save" or "saved", our mind immediately goes to the thought of spiritual salvation; however, that's not what it's always referring to. It can also mean "physical" salvation from harm. It can also mean "except"...such as...
 

Quote

 

Luke 4:26

But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

 

When comparing scripture with scripture, the verse in question is talking about those (of the nation of Israel) who have lasted (endured) throughout the sufferings of the Tribulation period. Don't forget, many of them will flee to the mountains and be cared for...they won't "have to stay strong through the hour of temptation". Those Jews (who last...or endure...until the end will be physically saved from sure destruction when the Lord Jesus Christ returns in all of his glory and destroys those who would destroy them.

 

 

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On 2/23/2020 at 1:46 PM, TomB said:

All Israel will he saved yes. But who is Israel. A political nation? A nation with borders? Romans says a Jew is not one outwardly but inwardly. All believers are part of the nation of Israel. In another place it says the Israel of God. Moses said to circumcise the foreskins of your heart and be no more stiffnecked. That is more important than the physical act.  Jesus praised strangers with faith more than many Israelites. These are the true Israel of God and they will all be saved. There will be sheep and goats at the last day from the beginning of creation to the last day.  The rapture is at the last day. There will be no millennium on this sin cursed earth. Christ will come back with power and great glory, every eye shall see him. This is the last day, Judgement Day and the rapture all in the same day.  The next life will be the new heavens and the new earth.  I wouldn’t be so concerned about confusing tribulation and “the” tribulation, etc.  Jesus said immediately after “the” tribulation in those days the sun shall be darkened. He is speaking to his people that they will still be here and he commanded to remember lots wife. She looked back at the destruction and became a pillar of salt. Our hearts should be in heaven, not the world.   

When Jesus says, “And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,” is he talking to Christians or to that particular group of people living between the walls of Jerusalem across from the Mt. of Olives?

Second question. If the people he’s referring to are that particular group living between those four walls, then is that the same group that the Russian/Muslim invasion is going to march against and then God will destroy 1/6 of their armies and “in that day shall all Israel be saved, and they shall know that I am the Lord”? Because if those people (whoever they are) between those four walls are saved then please WHO are the people standing at the base of the Mt of Olives when Jesus appears who had pierced him? Presumably the last lot living between those four walls got Raptured because they all got saved before the mid-rapture.

 

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7 hours ago, LYDIA WESTERN said:

When Jesus says, “And they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,” is he talking to Christians or to that particular group of people living between the walls of Jerusalem across from the Mt. of Olives?

Second question. If the people he’s referring to are that particular group living between those four walls, then is that the same group that the Russian/Muslim invasion is going to march against and then God will destroy 1/6 of their armies and “in that day shall all Israel be saved, and they shall know that I am the Lord”? Because if those people (whoever they are) between those four walls are saved then please WHO are the people standing at the base of the Mt of Olives when Jesus appears who had pierced him? Presumably the last lot living between those four walls got Raptured because they all got saved before the mid-rapture.

 

Those who look upon Him whom they pierced clearly refers to the Israelites who are in Jerusalem when Christ returns, because it is the Jews that pierced Him. Yes, the Romans did the actual act, but it was the rejection of the Jews that placed Him there, and they will mourn when they realize who He is and all they have lost in rejecting Him for so long. 

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While I myself am firmly pre-trib, I know personally some IFB preachers who have recently moved to the post-trib side. It's odd, because I also know that these fellows are in agreement with me on the difference between the church and Israel, and they do not hold the reformed theology of the church taking Israel's covenant. As has been correctly pointed out on here, bad covenant theology is often the culprit. But not with these guys.

Honestly? I think for some it partly stems from guilt and grief over the carnality of the church today, and a belief that for us to get caught out early is to get off easy. I can see where they're coming from, but I cant hold the doctrine in light of everything in scripture.

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On 3/1/2020 at 8:27 AM, weary warrior said:

While I myself am firmly pre-trib, I know personally some IFB preachers who have recently moved to the post-trib side. It's odd, because I also know that these fellows are in agreement with me on the difference between the church and Israel, and they do not hold the reformed theology of the church taking Israel's covenant. As has been correctly pointed out on here, bad covenant theology is often the culprit. But not with these guys.

Honestly? I think for some it partly stems from guilt and grief over the carnality of the church today, and a belief that for us to get caught out early is to get off easy. I can see where they're coming from, but I cant hold the doctrine in light of everything in scripture.

I lean to the post-trib/pre-wrath position, not because of any covenant theology or any such thing, I just find the arguments for pre-trib to be weak. Mind you, I say I LEAN that way, because I don't see, after considerable study, that the Bible clearly shows any of the positions to be proven.

The various arguments for a pre-trib all include a considerable amount of assumption connected to the passages, and a few are, actually, contextually incorrect. For example, 1Thes 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I read time and again, that if we were to go through the tribulation period, how could we be comforted, as it says here we will be? How can we comfort one another, with this hanging over our heads?  Well, if we read this in context, (and sadly, many who use this argument are usually big proponents of the importance of context), we see the timing of the events of the tribulation have nothing to do with it; rather, it is the fact that our loved ones who have died in Christ, we will see again, that they will come back with Christ and receive their glorified, resurrected bodies, and we will join them AND Jesus forever. THAT is our great comfort, not missing the tribulation, which is never mentioned here. 

There there is the assumption that, since the tribulation period is called the time of Jacob's trouble, and that Israel is in primary view here, that means we will be removed from earth first. Except there's no precedent for that idea-Noah is pointed to, but he and his family weren't spared the flood, rather, they were lifted above and rode out the flood-yet they still were there, protected, but watched as their friends, neighbors and loved ones died, heard their cries for help outside the ark. Then they had to ride it out for a year and a month in the ark, and were let out to survey the mess it left, and scrape together a new life from the ruins. So it is possible we will be here to witness the mess, kept safe by the mark of the Holy Ghost from many of the troubles the Lord sends upon the wicked. 

My point being, there is nothing in scripture that says we will escape the triblulation, just the wrath at the end. As for Jesus' imminent return, well, in 1Thes 5 we read:

"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

We see that the reference to the thief in the night it to the lost, but WE, His people, are NOT in darkness that is should overtake us as a thief. WE will not know the day, but we will be aware of the times and seasons. We will know it is nigh when it is nigh. 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

I lean to the post-trib/pre-wrath position, not because of any covenant theology or any such thing, I just find the arguments for pre-trib to be weak. Mind you, I say I LEAN that way, because I don't see, after considerable study, that the Bible clearly shows any of the positions to be proven.

The various arguments for a pre-trib all include a considerable amount of assumption connected to the passages, and a few are, actually, contextually incorrect. For example, 1Thes 4:

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

I read time and again, that if we were to go through the tribulation period, how could we be comforted, as it says here we will be? How can we comfort one another, with this hanging over our heads?  Well, if we read this in context, (and sadly, many who use this argument are usually big proponents of the importance of context), we see the timing of the events of the tribulation have nothing to do with it; rather, it is the fact that our loved ones who have died in Christ, we will see again, that they will come back with Christ and receive their glorified, resurrected bodies, and we will join them AND Jesus forever. THAT is our great comfort, not missing the tribulation, which is never mentioned here. 

There there is the assumption that, since the tribulation period is called the time of Jacob's trouble, and that Israel is in primary view here, that means we will be removed from earth first. Except there's no precedent for that idea-Noah is pointed to, but he and his family weren't spared the flood, rather, they were lifted above and rode out the flood-yet they still were there, protected, but watched as their friends, neighbors and loved ones died, heard their cries for help outside the ark. Then they had to ride it out for a year and a month in the ark, and were let out to survey the mess it left, and scrape together a new life from the ruins. So it is possible we will be here to witness the mess, kept safe by the mark of the Holy Ghost from many of the troubles the Lord sends upon the wicked. 

My point being, there is nothing in scripture that says we will escape the triblulation, just the wrath at the end. As for Jesus' imminent return, well, in 1Thes 5 we read:

"But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober."

We see that the reference to the thief in the night it to the lost, but WE, His people, are NOT in darkness that is should overtake us as a thief. WE will not know the day, but we will be aware of the times and seasons. We will know it is nigh when it is nigh. 

 

 

 

Your reasoning and interpretation of scripture is logical and well thought out. It is a reasonable way to approach it.

For me, honestly, if it were imperative that we were crystal clear on this subject, Christ would have made it more clear. But there remains a certain amount of shrouding and mystery over the details and timing of things at the end, and that is deliberate. So placement of the rapture is one doctrine that I do not fuss about, or contend with others over. Its going to happen in the Father's own good timing, and nothing we believe or do here now regarding that mystery will make any differance in anything.

I think its going to take place in  particular order that makes some sense to me, but I could be wrong. The comfort is that if my understanding is wrong, there is no problem. Im still to live every day like the Lord is returning for me today. If I do that, it will all take care of itself.

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7 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

Your reasoning and interpretation of scripture is logical and well thought out. It is a reasonable way to approach it.

For me, honestly, if it were imperative that we were crystal clear on this subject, Christ would have made it more clear. But there remains a certain amount of shrouding and mystery over the details and timing of things at the end, and that is deliberate. So placement of the rapture is one doctrine that I do not fuss about, or contend with others over. Its going to happen in the Father's own good timing, and nothing we believe or do here now regarding that mystery will make any differance in anything.

I think its going to take place in  particular order that makes some sense to me, but I could be wrong. The comfort is that if my understanding is wrong, there is no problem. Im still to live every day like the Lord is returning for me today. If I do that, it will all take care of itself.

And I agree with you completely. While I really like David Cloud and a lot of how teachings, I am disturbed a bit over his insistence not only that the pre-trib rapture is CLEAR biblical doctrine, but that it is to be considered a fundamental of the faith, meaning, if I understand Fundamentalism properly, that it is a salvation issue, and that anyone who is NOT pre-trib must be separated from, that is even more disturbing. 

A concern I have is, if it ISN'T pre-tribulation,  and all those pre-trib believers begin to clearly see events of the tribulation taking place, how might this affect their faith? Will they think they were left behind? Will they be angry at God for leaving them? I so often hear the argument that God would NEVER cause His children to go through such terrible tribulation, but then I wonder, Have they read Foxe's Book of Martyrs? Have they read how believers have historically always been treated? The millions slaughtered by the Romans, the Jews, the Catholics, the Muslims, the communists? I am afraid we have become too soft in America with the lack of real persecution. 

So I am all for Him taking us before the trouble begins, because I certainly don't want to go through it, even protected, but if we must, better to be ready, at least for the possibility, so if it DOES occur, I am at least mentally prepared.

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5 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

And I agree with you completely. While I really like David Cloud and a lot of how teachings, I am disturbed a bit over his insistence not only that the pre-trib rapture is CLEAR biblical doctrine, but that it is to be considered a fundamental of the faith, meaning, if I understand Fundamentalism properly, that it is a salvation issue, and that anyone who is NOT pre-trib must be separated from, that is even more disturbing. 

This is wrong.

The "Fundamentals" are not all associated with salvation and it is a gross misrepresentation for you to argue it in this way.

Two offices is a fundamental but has nothing to do with salvation.

Two ordinances is a fundamental but has nothing to do with salvation (how they are observed does, but not the fact there are only two).

There are others but you get the picture.

For you to characterise Cloud in this way is totally improper.

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1 hour ago, DaveW said:

This is wrong.

The "Fundamentals" are not all associated with salvation and it is a gross misrepresentation for you to argue it in this way.

Two offices is a fundamental but has nothing to do with salvation.

Two ordinances is a fundamental but has nothing to do with salvation (how they are observed does, but not the fact there are only two).

There are others but you get the picture.

For you to characterise Cloud in this way is totally improper.

Well, as a Fundamentalist myself, I actually agree with you-I believe there are many fundamentals-but I also know that there is a large group who hold that a fundamental is an absolute, and a matter of salvation, and separation must occur in such matters. And David Cloud has made clear that he will separate from those who don't hold to a pre-tribulation rapture position. Personally, I believe the requirement for a fundamental would be any doctrine the Bible is absolutely clear on, but I don't know that it extends always to a salvation issue, or even always meaning there must be separation, though usually I would do so. 

Again, I like Cloud and find probably 98% of all he teaches, I agree with-in this I disagree, primarily because of the leaps and assumptions that have to be made to arrive at that point. Again, I don't say he is wrong, I say there is just not solid enough biblical evidence to go on, and to make it a fundamental is wrong. I would agree that a pre-millennial literal rapture of the church and return of Christ to be fundamentals, because they are clearly taught-the timing of the rapture is the problem.  

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And again, you are choosing to smear Cloud on this matter by suggesting that he holds pre-trib and "the fundamentals" as salvation matters - which he doesn't. 

Separating over a false doctrine taught does not necessarily mean that he is saying it is a salvation matter.

Following the doctrinal teachings of a woman would also be a fairly weighty matter, but not necessarily a salvation issue - but I would separate from someone who follows the doctrinal teachings of a woman.

 

You really do appear to be trying to paint Cloud with a brush that is not of his making.

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Dave, if Cloud is talking breaking fellowship with brethren over the issue of pre-trib / post-trib rapture, it is inappropriate. That's Mike's bottom line point, and its a fair point.

The indignation being displayed here is disproportionate to the thought communicated. 

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10 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

just the wrath at the end.

Forgive me, but, the wrath of God is not just "at the end." The wrath of God, the JUDGMENT of God, starts at Revelation 6:1 with the Anti-Christ conquering the nations of the world, and continues to the moment the Lord Jesus steps in Jerusalem.

 

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