Baptists and Catholics

[Angel 1]

Hi, I’m a Baptist and I’ve been studying Catholicism for a few days, I don’t want to convert, I just wanted to learn more on why they believe what they do and to see if there are similarities between the two faiths, we’re all Christians afterall. I would also like to hear from Baptists, if theres any, that converted from Catholicism. Why did you convert and did you find what you were looking for? This is an open friendly discussion, so any questions or answers are welcome! God bless!

[Invicta 1,553]

There is no similarity between Baptists and Catholics.  Baptists have Christ  as head of the Church.  Catholics have a man as the head of the church, a man who claims to be as god on earth.  The RCC has murdered millions of christians in its wars and Inquisitions.  The inquisition was called "The Holy Office" . In 1890 it was still in action and may still be.  If it had the power it would still be murdering Christians, but these days it is getting its way by infiltrating other churches through  Churches Together.

Today  here in South East England two Baptist churches less than 20 miles from here, who are in Churches together have  been having Lent classes and another believed in transubstantiation.   

Edited December 31, 2019 by Invicta

[Angel 1]

"Catholics have a man as the head of the church, a man who claims to be as god on earth." This is not the case, Catholics have a head because Jesus Himself appointed Saint Peter to watch over His church and the Pope is a direct line of Popes of the past to Jesus himself. I may be a little off on that and although I don't have all the details or an in depth knowledge of the structure of the Catholic church, I do know that worship is for God alone in the Catholic church. Furthermore, the emphasis on Mother Mary is not worship, just honor because God honored her first. Check Luke 1:26-28. Then again when Jesus was crucified he said to His mother "Women, behold your son" and to the person on the cross next to Him, He said "Behold your mother" (John 19:25-27). This is where Catholics believe Jesus gave Mother Mary to all of us, again not for worship, just to acknowledge her.

Side Note: I believe that it's good to have communication between different churches, to understand each other's beliefs even if we don't believe it ourselves. That said, I wouldn't condone trying to convert a church's beliefs either. I hope you can take this with you and tank you for your reply! God bless!

[DaveW 4,115]

The study of Mary in Catholic dogma is called "Mariolatry".

All other area of study in theology are "...ology".

With the exception of "Idoloatry".

The difference? And "olatry" is worship.......

Anyone who says that Catholics don't worship Mary is seriously misinformed.

[Jim_Alaska 2,365]

There is no "direct line" of Popes to Jesus. Many in Catholicism have tried to make one by insisting that Peter was the first Pope. There is no evidence of this either Biblically or historically. This teaching is Catholic Church dogma, spoken by men, nothing more.

Catholics have always worshiped Mary. They pray to her, erect statues to her and insist that she is a co-mediatrix with Jesus. They pray to statues, ask favors of dead people they call saints, and so on.

Consider these words out of a prayer to Mary; "Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us now and at the hour of our death."  Jesus said there is none holy except God. Mary is dead, she cannot pray for anyone. She is certainly not the mother of God, this would make her above God because God would be her son.

Credible historians verify that 70 million Baptists and others were killed by the Catholic Church during the Inquisitions. The Catholic Church's Crusades sought to exterminate not only Muslims, but our Baptist forefathers also.

[Angel 1]

@Jim_Alaska

Wouldn't Mary technically be mother of God since Jesus was God on earth? And God created man and women thus God would still be above her as He created her and was also her Heavenly Father. I don't believe in the Pope or hierarchy of the Catholic Church, I was just trying to explain what was explained to me, I have some Catholic friends and asked them about their faith. They did tell me that they pray to saints and Mary due to them being in the direct presence of God and could pray to God for them which would be intercession(It's kind of like when we pray to our loved ones who have passed), but that they also pray to God the Father Himself. Thank you for your explanation, I hope to hear from your next response!

[Salyan 1,926]

To be honest, your writing sounds rather like you have been convinced of their doctrine. I'd encourage to you to look at their claims more critically and compare it to Scripture. 

Regarding the so-called passage about Peter (we're all saints in Christ, so it's silly to call him Saint Peter anymore than I'd call you Saint Angel), let's take a look at the passage in context.

"When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:13-18

The context shows that Jesus had asked His disciples a question, and Peter had answered it with a statement of faith - "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living God." This is the 'it' that Jesus later told him had been revealed to Peter by the Father. He follows that up with a play on words. You see, 'Peter' in Greek is 'Petros'. The word Christ used for 'rock' is 'petra'. 'Petros' refers to a pebble; a small stone, while 'petra' refers to a large rock; bedrock. Peter himself was only a pebble, but the statement of faith he spoke was to be the bedrock of Christ's church - the fact that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), and Son of God. You see? Jesus wasn't establishing Peter as the rock of the church (unstable Peter? that would be a poor foundation indeed). Rather, it was the illustrated faith and confidence in Jesus the Son of God that would be the bedrock of all believers. 

Furthermore, the Gentile Church (which  is what the first church established in Rome would be primarily comprised of) was largely evangelized and led by Paul. Peter stayed in Jerusalem and was a chief elder to the Jewish believers.

 

As far as Mary, she is called a co-mediatrix by the Catholic organization. This means they believe that she is a co-mediator between God and man. This is blasphemy. 1 Timothy 2:5 says: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Also, Hebrews 1:2-3 says: "...his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:"

The co-mediatrix doctrine is also where they get the idea of Mary praying for us. But as we see from 1 Timothy, the only mediator between God and man is Jesus - not Mary, not the saints.  Only Jesus. 

As far as that passage in John, let's take a look at the wording:

 "When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home." John 19:26-27

First, a grammar lesson. The translators of the KJV were attempting to translate languages that used both singular and plural second-person pronouns (unlike modern English, which uses the generic you/your/yours for both singular and plural uses). In order to translate the sense of the words accurately, they chose to use thy/thine to translate singular pronouns, and you/your for plural pronouns. For this reference to be applicable to all of us, Jesus would have had to say 'behold your mother' (as you incorrectly quoted). Rather, he said 'behold thy mother'. The use of the word 'thy' indicates that he was speaking to a singular person - the disciple He loved (i.e. John). The Catholic understanding that she was given to all of us is thus grammatically inaccurate. 

The Catholic organization also teaches that Mary was herself immaculately conceived (i.e. of a virgin) and without sin. This extrabiblical teaching would make her the promised Messiah, not Jesus - you see the doctrinal problem with this? They call her 'mother of God' - but God by definition has no parent - only the human body of Christ had a mother. They also call her Queen of Heaven. The Bible references a Queen of Heaven. She was a false goddess sinfully worshipped by the Israelites in the time of Jeremiah (Jeremiah chapters 7, 44). The Catholic representation of Mary thus traces back to an ancient false religion that provoked God's wrath against the Israelites. 

 

[Angel 1]

@Salyan

Thank you for clearing that up, as I said before, I do not believe in the catholic church, I was just asking out of curiosity.

@Invicta @DaveW @Jim_Alaska and @Salyan

Thank you for replying and your insight, you've helped me immensely.

[DaChaser 17]

On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2019 at 9:26 PM, Angel said:

@Jim_Alaska

Wouldn't Mary technically be mother of God since Jesus was God on earth? And God created man and women thus God would still be above her as He created her and was also her Heavenly Father. I don't believe in the Pope or hierarchy of the Catholic Church, I was just trying to explain what was explained to me, I have some Catholic friends and asked them about their faith. They did tell me that they pray to saints and Mary due to them being in the direct presence of God and could pray to God for them which would be intercession(It's kind of like when we pray to our loved ones who have passed), but that they also pray to God the Father Himself. Thank you for your explanation, I hope to hear from your next response!

Focus upon what they say that the Gospel of Christ is, as you will find that it is not as we Baptists hold it as being, but that thru the 7 sacraments of grace, we can merit salvation from God. Totally makes null and void the Cross of Christ.

[1Timothy115 882]

A look at Matthew 16 vs dogma

 

The best commentary on scripture is scripture.

 

Matthew 16:13-23 

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

Discussion:

Who is the subject of the discussion in Matthew 16:13-23? It is Jesus¹.

Who is the subject of the New Testament? It is Jesus².

Do other Gospels provide context for Matthew 16? Yes, Mark 8:27-33 (no mention of rock). Luke 9:18-22 (no mention of rock). ³ Matthew 18:18. ⁴ John 20:23.

As a result of this scripture does Peter ever refer to himself as the rock or even a bishop (pastor) of any church? No, in fact he acknowledges his sinfulness, Luke 5:8 “When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.”

To whom is Jesus speaking in Matthew 16:13-23? All the disciples present but primarily the 12 apostles.  

 

In Peter’s only reference⁵ to “rock” in 1 Peter 2:8 he refers to The Lord Jesus Christ. “And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.” Even here, he refers to the O.T. where Isaiah 8:14 prophesied the future coming of Christ.

 

It could be easy to make an errant casual determination of what Matthew 16:13-23 says. When some truth is mixed with an error it can appear to be plausible. Once an error occurs and additional dogma is adopted with it; it becomes difficult to correct. Once accepted and purported as truth, personal pride and reputation can play a strong role in perpetuating an error. Further, error becomes a tradition among those who accept and adhere to it. When power and wealth are added to pride and tradition, the error becomes nearly impossible to correct. When generations are trained to accept an error it may be so strongly entrenched, logical and obvious refutation is ignored. There may be good intention for the truth which accompanies the error; but the pathway to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

Notes:

¹  The obvious subject of Matthew 16:13 is Jesus Christ our Lord. “…Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?” Also, in verse 15, “But whom say ye that I am?”

² The word rock (singular) is found in the Bible 106 times. 54 times they are direct or indirect references to God and particularly Christ, i.e. Deuteronomy 32:15   “…the Rock of his salvation” and 1 Corinthians 10:4   “…that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

³ Matthew 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

⁴ John 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

⁵ 1 Peter 2:4 “To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,” Here Peter refers to Christ as a “living stone” and in the verses which follow as the “chief corner stone”, “the stone which the builders disallowed”, and “a stone of stumbling.”

Addendum:

Many things have been attributed to Peter by the Church at Rome. However, what they cannot dispute is scripture, our Holy Bible; and so, they go about in an attempt to diminish it’s authority over men and establish their own dogma as authority above God’s word.

 

The reason Rome had to have Peter, is because they thought Jesus Christ had appointed him a position above the other Apostles. So, instead of making Paul the "first pope" they chose Peter; even though Peter could not be placed at Rome for anything more than possibly execution.