Could Barack Obama be the Antichrist?

[Wilchbla 283]

I believe he will definitely come from people who were considered to be Romans. Now, when daniel wrote, jerusalem lay in ruins, but he said those who "WILL" destroy it. After that time, it was rebuilt & destroyed again by the ROMANS.

Now, i have no idea whether or not the EU will become the AC's kingdom or not, but it certainly cannot be ruled out now.

The Romans rebuilt Jerusalem? Where do you get this?

[John81 7,399]

The Romans rebuilt Jerusalem? Where do you get this?

Perhaps poor sentence structure, but I do believe he simply meant that Jerusalem was rebuilt and then later in history the Romans destroyed it. I don't think he was intending to say the Romans rebuilt Jerusalem.

[bzmomo7 50]

Does the anti-christ have to be someone born in Europe or is he just a ruler that comes out of the "revived Roman empire"? Someone on here said that they thought he must be a Jew or of a certain descent........could you tell me where to find that in my Bible?

Also, I know some are not big on commentaries, but if you were to use a commentary on end time prophesy, what would you recommend? (I'm thinking especially to help understand the history surrounding the prophesies already fulfilled, and other culturally relevant stuff that I might not already know about) Thanks.

....now you guys can go back to your regularly scheduled debate..... :wvlf"

[Hambone 0]

Obama is not the Antichrist. However, I believe he is preparing the way for the antichrist. Have you ever seen the whole world blindly follow ONE MAN in the way they followed Obama. I believe Obama's true ignorance has begun to come to light, and the world is beginning to realize that he was made into a much more competent person than he really is.

Imagine a truly competent person with Obama's popularity. A person with answers. A person who actually knows what he is doing. The people of the world are ripe for the antichrist--Obama proves that.

We will know who the antichrist is because we will be here for the tribulation. Jesus said so.

[HappyChristian 3,457]

bz - I have heard in the past that the anti-christ will come from the tribe of Dan. There are a few scriptures that mention Dan (being a serpent, the tribe not being mentioned as being sealed in Rev) but nothing that is concrete to build a doctrine on. Actually, I think it's more personal opinion. The anti-christ makes a covenant with the Jews, so he most likely has some connection to the Jews. They have historically accepted political leaders who weren't Jewish, but I really doubt they'd accept a Messiah who wasn't (so, my opinion is that he will be part - even if it's only 1/1,0000! - Jewish). Although their Messiah isn't going to be spiritual, he will be physical (even the Jews of Jesus' day were looking for their Messiah to deliver them from the Romans), so it could be that they won't worry about his lineage.

I don't believe that BO is the anti-christ for many reasons, but the biggest one is that he is a friend to the muslims who hate the Jews. And the Jews today wouldn't make a covenant with a man who bows to the Saudi king!

[elijahruth 0]

I believe or the Holy Spirit leads me to believe that he is not The Anti-Christ. He is an anti-christ. He has denied Him. He is helping to usher in The Anti-Christ however.

[bzmomo7 50]

bz - I have heard in the past that the anti-christ will come from the tribe of Dan. There are a few scriptures that mention Dan (being a serpent, the tribe not being mentioned as being sealed in Rev) but nothing that is concrete to build a doctrine on. Actually, I think it's more personal opinion. The anti-christ makes a covenant with the Jews, so he most likely has some connection to the Jews. They have historically accepted political leaders who weren't Jewish, but I really doubt they'd accept a Messiah who wasn't (so, my opinion is that he will be part - even if it's only 1/1,0000! - Jewish). Although their Messiah isn't going to be spiritual, he will be physical (even the Jews of Jesus' day were looking for their Messiah to deliver them from the Romans), so it could be that they won't worry about his lineage.

I don't believe that BO is the anti-christ for many reasons, but the biggest one is that he is a friend to the muslims who hate the Jews. And the Jews today wouldn't make a covenant with a man who bows to the Saudi king!

Thanks, HC. Yeah, I do not think BO is the anti-christ either, but I have been feeling like I need to do some studying up on Revelation/end time prophesy. I haven't really had this much interest since I was a new Christian. Do you have any recommendations for a commentary on the end times?

[HappyChristian 3,457]

Do you have any recommendations for a commentary on the end times?

Let me talk to my hubby and I'lll get back to you.

[bzmomo7 50]

Let me talk to my hubby and I'lll get back to you.

Thanks a bunch! :thumb

[HappyChristian 3,457]

Thanks a bunch! :thumb

Okay - the text that our college is using right now is David Cloud's book on prophecy.
http://www.wayoflife.org/publications/abss.html
Scroll down about halfway and you'll find it - Understanding Bible Prophecy. Not too bad a price, either!

[bzmomo7 50]

Okay - the text that our college is using right now is David Cloud's book on prophecy.
http://www.wayoflife.org/publications/abss.html
Scroll down about halfway and you'll find it - Understanding Bible Prophecy. Not too bad a price, either!

Ok, will do!

[elijahruth 0]

Obama is not the Antichrist. However, I believe he is preparing the way for the antichrist. Have you ever seen the whole world blindly follow ONE MAN in the way they followed Obama. I believe Obama's true ignorance has begun to come to light, and the world is beginning to realize that he was made into a much more competent person than he really is.

Imagine a truly competent person with Obama's popularity. A person with answers. A person who actually knows what he is doing. The people of the world are ripe for the antichrist--Obama proves that.

We will know who the antichrist is because we will be here for the tribulation. Jesus said so.

Why do you think we will be here for the tribulation? I ask you, because we agree on many things posted here a value your opinion. I am pre trib though. Just so you know. In Christ.

[PreacherBen 21]

Elijahruth,

Though, I am not hambone, I would like to post a few thoughts on your question. For starters, I, too, was a solid pretribber for most of my Christian life until I considered the following thoughts:

1. The Christians go up after the "last trump" correct?
2. If there is a last trump, there has to be at least one or two before it for it to be considered the "last" trump.
3. The only multitude of trumpets in the book of the Revelation is the 7 trumpets.
4. Even though God has not appointed Christians to wrath, that does not mean he will not supernaturally preserve believers during the tribulation. The entire tribulation IS NOT all wrath.
5. The teaching of the pre-trib rapture cannot solidly be traced prior to the 1800's.
6. The church for the first 1800 years taught the church was going to see the second coming, (and be in the end times events.)
7. Jesus is seen in the clouds making a reaping at the loud call of an angel in the Revelation right before he poors out his wrath on the unbelieving world. Consider the following verses:

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

So what happens after the seventh (last) trumpet?

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The mystery of God should be finished. The last Gentile comes into the kingdom.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This has happened so the time of Jacob's trouble can bring Israel to repentance and recognition of Christ.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Did the O.T. prophets know about this as Rev. 10:7 stated?

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Is it a short time that the Lord destroys the wicked and the antichrist?

Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

So you see, there is grounds for believing a Pre-wrath Rapture as opposed to the popular Pre-Trib rapture. I beleive there is enough mystery in the Revelation that we cannot know for sure, and we had better be ready for either.

Ben

[Wilchbla 283]

Elijahruth,

Though, I am not hambone, I would like to post a few thoughts on your question. For starters, I, too, was a solid pretribber for most of my Christian life until I considered the following thoughts:

1. The Christians go up after the "last trump" correct?
2. If there is a last trump, there has to be at least one or two before it for it to be considered the "last" trump.
3. The only multitude of trumpets in the book of the Revelation is the 7 trumpets.
4. Even though God has not appointed Christians to wrath, that does not mean he will not supernaturally preserve believers during the tribulation. The entire tribulation IS NOT all wrath.
5. The teaching of the pre-trib rapture cannot solidly be traced prior to the 1800's.
6. The church for the first 1800 years taught the church was going to see the second coming, (and be in the end times events.)
7. Jesus is seen in the clouds making a reaping at the loud call of an angel in the Revelation right before he poors out his wrath on the unbelieving world. Consider the following verses:

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

So what happens after the seventh (last) trumpet?

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The mystery of God should be finished. The last Gentile comes into the kingdom.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This has happened so the time of Jacob's trouble can bring Israel to repentance and recognition of Christ.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Did the O.T. prophets know about this as Rev. 10:7 stated?

Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Is it a short time that the Lord destroys the wicked and the antichrist?

Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.

So you see, there is grounds for believing a Pre-wrath Rapture as opposed to the popular Pre-Trib rapture. I beleive there is enough mystery in the Revelation that we cannot know for sure, and we had better be ready for either.

Ben

Most of the verse you quote to prove your "Pre-Wrath" rapture are aimed at Israel. The rapture of the church was a mystery not revealed to the OT prophets but revealed to Paul. Passages like the one you mention from Isaiah 26 are referring to the rapture of tribulation saints NOT the church.

[PreacherBen 21]

Most of the verse you quote to prove your "Pre-Wrath" rapture are aimed at Israel.

This type of dispensationalist interpretation is one way of viewing these verses. It is easy to point at a verse and apply it to Israel when it does not jive with one's theory. I guess we all do it in one sense or another.

Ben

[Wilchbla 283]

This type of dispensationalist interpretation is one way of viewing these verses. It is easy to point at a verse and apply it to Israel when it does not jive with one's theory. I guess we all do it in one sense or another.

Ben

There's no theory about it. Who was God talking to in those OT passages? Israel. Unless you think God is completely finished with the nation of Israel (which Paul warned against) than there is no reason not to apply it to them. Remember, the oracles of God were given to them. We just happen to be grafted into the tree.

[PreacherBen 21]

O.k., if those verses apply to Israel, and we are the engrafted branch, then wouldn't some of the nutrient applied at the root (Israel,) come up into the the branch (the Gentile Bride?) I do not do away with Israel, but see all of it coming together at the culmination of God's grand plan. Some of it applies to Israel, and some of it applies to the Gentile Bride, and some of it applies to both.

[heavenstear 0]

Since verses 3 and 4 of Daniel 11 are without a doubt speaking of Alexander the Great, I don't see how verse 37 could be about the Anti-Christ, since the context is that it is about one of the successors to A the G.

I haven't really read much more past the 4th page as of yet on this topic so not sure if anyone mentioned this.

Daniel 11:37 is speaking of Aniochus IV Epiphanes, he is also the little horn mentioned in Daniel 7 and 8. But we are able to identfy the Antichrist by these verses cause he is paralleled to Aniochus IV. Antiochus was indeed an antichrist type. And the Antichrist is indeed considered the little horn of the end times. By understanding antiochus one can understand more of the coming antichrist.

Blessings
heavenstear

[Hambone 0]

Why do you think we will be here for the tribulation? I ask you, because we agree on many things posted here a value your opinion. I am pre trib though. Just so you know. In Christ.

I personally don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. That is my conviction from my studies. I don't belive the Bible supports it. I can provide my reasoning (and I have on this forum), but I figure if I'm wrong--yipee! I'll be raptured, since my rapture is based on my salvation, not my belief in the pre-trib rapture. But, if I am right, I believe there will be a great upheaval in the church. You are talking millions of Christians who figured they had a free "get out of tribulation" card coming to the preachers and wanting answers! The belief is very much an American belief. Most Chinese and North Korean Christians don't believe in a pre-trib rapture because of the things they've gone through, and the fact that God doesn't provide "get out of tribulation" card often. People like to compare the rapture to Noah, but Noah wasn't escaping tribulation--he was escaping destruction, which is exactly what believer will be escaping at the last trump (which happens at the end of the tribulation, by the way). Furthermore, the pre-tribulation rapture is a very new belief. There are no records prior to the 1800s of any of our church "fathers" preaching pre-trib. Most people will jump on this and say Paul did--but I use the exact same verses to support my views. Also, IF Paul had taught this, I think it would have been mentioned at one time or another during the 1800 years between Paul and the time it became popular.

I am a hard core IFB, don't get me wrong, but the more I study the subject, the more I am convinced I'm correct. I believe the Baptist Church is stuck in a paradigm on this subject--but it is still my church.

[candlelight 760]

There's no theory about it. Who was God talking to in those OT passages? Israel. Unless you think God is completely finished with the nation of Israel (which Paul warned against) than there is no reason not to apply it to them. Remember, the oracles of God were given to them. We just happen to be grafted into the tree.

Amen... Wilchbla. Well said. I love your part about a "theory." It is NOT a "theory." A "theory" does NOT offer any...Biblical proof, Biblical logic, let alone Biblical common sense. The Book of Revelation clearly points this out. Below is a prophetic verse from Revelation:

Revelation 4:1... After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. King James Bible

Note:

The greatest thing for the "true" church is that God WILL take care of it. Amen. That is surely comforting to me; however, the scripture above should speak for itself. That is all that we need. :smile

In Christ Jesus,

Molly

[Hambone 0]

Amen... Wilchbla. Well said. I love your part about a "theory." It is NOT a "theory." A "theory" does NOT offer any...Biblical proof, Biblical logic, let alone Biblical common sense. The Book of Revelation clearly points this out. Below is a prophetic verse from Revelation:

Revelation 4:1... After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. King James Bible

Note:

The greatest thing for the "true" church is that God WILL take care of it. Amen. That is surely comforting to me; however, the scripture above should speak for itself. That is all that we need. :smile

In Christ Jesus,

Molly

Revelation 4:1 and its relation to the rapture is a theory. I'm assuming (you know what they say about assuming) that you are of the belief that after this the word "church" is not used, and that means something. In my opinion, it means no more than the fact that the word church isn't used in Rev 4-22. If you were to apply this 'theory' to the Gospel of John, I guess you could say that nothing in the Gospel of John applies to the Church.

[Hambone 0]

Here:

It is assumed by pretribulationists that the church is not present on earth during the events spoken of in the majority of the book of Revelation. This thinking is based primarily on the absence of the word "church" from Revelation 3:22 to Revelation 20:16. If the "church" is not mentioned, it is concluded, she must have been raptured prior to the events written about. Further, it is assumed that the invitation to the apostle John in Revelation 4:1 to "come up hither" is a picture of the rapture of the church preceding the events of the 70th week.

It is important to examine these assumptions because they clearly attempt to place the rescue of the righteous (the rapture) before Daniel's 70th week and not after. If that is so, it should be clearly taught in Scripture.

For several compelling reasons, it is a false conclusion to assume that the church will be raptured before the 70th week of Daniel (and for that reason is not mentioned between chapters 4 and 20):

1. The plain teaching of Scripture. Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24:3-31), outlines the sequence of events in the last days relative to the church. Verses 3-14 parallel Revelation chapter 6 and depict those events from the beginning of the 70th week to the rapture. Then, in verses 15-28, He focuses on the middle time period of that future week (the final 7 years) and emphasizes two key events: (a) a time of great persecution, and ( the "cut[ting] short" of "those days" of persecution for "the sake of the elect". Finally, in verses 29-31, He highlights what it is that will "cut short" that persecution, the rescue of the elect (the rapture).

Paul echoes this same teaching in his 2nd letter to the Thessalonians 2:1-12: (a) the apostasy comes first, ( the revealing of the man of lawlessness, © the "challenge" to all who will not bow down to him and worship him "as being God", and (d) the coming of the Lord to "gather together" believers unto Himself.

In Revelation 6-8, we have the same sequence repeated: (a) the 70th week begins, ( the pressure builds [seals 1-3], © the midpoint [seals 4-5] and apex of the persecution (against the "saints") arrives, (d) the "cut[ting] short" of that persecution with the same cosmic announcement [seal 6] as Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:29-31 followed by the rapture of the saints (Revelation 7:9ff). There is absolutely no teaching either by hint or by direct instruction that the church will not be present during the 70th week of Daniel.

2. The recipients of the book of Revelation. In Revelation 1:1 we read: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His servants,..." In Revelation 22:6, we read: "the Lord,... God... sent His angel to show to His servants..." Eight times in the book of Revelation, we encounter the reference "servant". This special term is applicable in the New Testament to the apostle John, Paul, and Timothy. It is a word that has reference to all true believers as opposed to "tares", "darnel", or look-alikes. What does this mean? By writing the book of Revelation to the servants, Jesus is clearly focusing not on the church in general, but faithful servants. They are to know what will transpire during that climactic era of history. Why? Perhaps to avoid unnecessary exposure to the evil empire of Antichrist. Perhaps to be able to assist struggling believers who did not prepare themselves when they should have. Perhaps to be able to effectively serve the Lord in some capacity with strength during those challenging days. Only God fully knows.

We are made to understand that the church in general will, for the most part, be a compromising body at the time of the end. When Jesus addresses the seven churches in Revelation, His primary appeal is a call to repentance. Each of those churches is in one or more compromising situations and needs to change their spiritual condition if they are to be overcomers. The clear desire of Christ is that the individuals in each of those churches be victorious rather than suffer the consequences. It's the church in general that will not know what is happening when the end-time events unfold and in chapter 6:7-11 and chapters 12 and 13, we see that they pay a high price for their unpreparedness.

3. The use of "saint"(s) in the New Testament. The New Testament uses the term "saint" some 59 times. Virtually every reference clearly indicates it means a true believer in Christ. Link that with the conspicuous absence of any reference in the major eschatological works of the Bible that supposedly teach some sort of "revival" during the 70th week of Daniel. The fact is, the repeated reference of mankind in Revelation during this time is that they "did not repent" (cf. Rev. 9:20-21; 16:9,11). When the persecution begins at the midpoint, that experience won't be the most conducive means of seeing people come to Christ in great numbers. Who then are these saints? Are they believers who come to Christ after the beginning of the 70th week? Yes and no. Certainly it must be acknowledged that there will be some who come to Christ once the 70th week begins. But are those potentially trickling numbers worthy of a worldwide vendetta by Antichrist? Hardly! No, there must be a significant enough body of "saints" still present when Antichrist reveals himself to warrant his widespread wrath. The great multitude in Revelation 7 speaks to that clear reality.

4. The misrepresentation of John being the church. It is said that the church is not present during the events of Revelation because in chapter 4:1, John is called to "come up hither". John is said to be a picture of the church, and therefore it (the church) is in heaven during the days of the 70th week of Daniel. But is that a valid inference? Nowhere in all of the New Testament is there warrant to apply the understanding that John represents the church in Rev. 4:1. The context clearly implies that "John" refers to... John, and no one else. He is simply given a heavenly perspective of what is going on behind the visible world and what will take place during the last days. Nothing else. To say otherwise is to grasp at straws to try to support a hollow argument.

5. The argument from silence. It is maintained that since the word "church" isn't used again from 3:22 until 22:6, she is absent from the events unfolding during that time period. That's an argument from silence. If we apply that same argument to the gospel of John, we have to conclude that the gospel of John isn't for the church because the word church isn't even mentioned in all of its chapters. Can that be true?

The overwhelming evidence is that the church is indeed present during the 70th week of Daniel regardless of whether the word is used or not. What one believes must be squarely built on what the Bible clearly says, not on what we might like it to say for whatever reason. What we believe about the last days will have tremendous implications for our lives should we enter those days. Let us be Bereans, searching to see if these things are so. (Acts 17:11)

The Berean spirit of the Baptist Church (IFB) is not alive. We will attack other people's beliefs in a heartbeat, and rightfully so in most cases; but we have a real problem being critical of ourselves and what we have been taught. As I have already said, I was a pre-tribber through and through because that is how I was raised, what I was taught, and I took what many great preachers taught me at face value without researching the Bible myself (as the Bereans did). As I grew in the Lord and my Christian walk, the pre-tribulational rapture just didn't sit well. I judge everything as,"Am I as sure about this as I am my very salvation?" I could not say with the same amount of absolute certainty that I believed the PTR to be correct. After years of reading, research, and travelling I have come to doubt the pre-trib view, and am quite sure that we will in fact be present during the tribulation.

Also, as I have said, this is not a salvation issue. If we are raptured (and I'm wrong) before the tribulation, GREAT!!!! My salvation is in Christ, not whether I'm a pre/post-tribber. However, if I am correct, I pity those who will not be prepared--especially those pastors that will be hunted down for answers as to why we are still here......I have learned to err on the side of caution.