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On 11/20/2019 at 10:57 PM, robycop3 said:

  Appears there are less Roman catholic visitors here than there are on the "Baptist Board".  There, they insist Scripture PLUS 'TRADITION" & SACRAMENTS is the highest earthly authority, along with the pope speaking ex cathedra. This, of course, is phony as a Chevy Mustang.

And then you have the Jewish Oral traditions, that supposedly God wanted NOT written, but passed verbally through generations...yeah, we can trust THAT. The Mishna, the Talmud, the Kabballah, the various rabbinic writings, most are held as equal to written scripture/Torah. 

As for Chevy Mustangs, yeah you saw one exists, but really, is it any better than an NIV saying it's a bible? lol.

 

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As for the OP, I believe that once the Lord completed his written word, Sola Scriptura because the SOP. Clearly, the heavens declare the glory of God, but they don't tell us ABOUT Him, who He is and His attributes, they merely affirm His existence and His power. But of course, before the completion of the written word, God used all kinds of methods, prophets, personal revelation, angels, an ass, priests, and methods we really aren't even privy to, such as how He dealt with the people of Canaan while the Hebrews were in Egypt-we know He had priests, like Melchezidek and Jethro, but did he give a written word and laws for them? Or did he work through prophecy and revelation specifically? We don't know because that was for them, not us.  

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11 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

And then you have the Jewish Oral traditions, that supposedly God wanted NOT written, but passed verbally through generations...yeah, we can trust THAT. The Mishna, the Talmud, the Kabballah, the various rabbinic writings, most are held as equal to written scripture/Torah. 

As for Chevy Mustangs, yeah you saw one exists, but really, is it any better than an NIV saying it's a bible? lol.

 

  But, how TRUE is it?  Remember, most Jews reject the Messiah, & look forward to building a new temple in Jerusalem & resuming animal sacrifices. So, how far can we gentiles believe their oral traditions? About as far as we Baptists can believe the Catholic ones.

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Let me clarify my position...

I personally believe that God's word is our greatest source of knowledge regarding God.

However, Robycop (in my understanding of his post) said there was no other...cough cough..."intel" about God. God's word disagrees.

In fact, the verses that I quoted from Romans 1 are very clear. The knowledge of God is so clear, that it is MANIFEST in man...and men are without excuse.

Don't ask me to explain it, because I can't. However, I believe God.

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Many of the first Christians would not have known about Christ from scripture.  The average gentile would not have been intimately familiar with Hebrew scripture.  They might have been illiterate.  They learned about Christ from a preacher.  Paul asked, how will they know if someone does not tell them?  After hearing and believing, the indwelling Holy Spirit helped them understand.

Maybe we should say the truth is found in scripture and accurate preaching is based on scripture but reading scripture is not the only way to reach truth.  Scripture- based preaching is reinforced by the Spirit.

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11 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  But, how TRUE is it?  Remember, most Jews reject the Messiah, & look forward to building a new temple in Jerusalem & resuming animal sacrifices. So, how far can we gentiles believe their oral traditions? About as far as we Baptists can believe the Catholic ones.

I wasn't saying they ARE true: I was using them as further examples like the Catholic use of tradition as being equal to/superior to scripture. I don't suspect much if any is true, especially since the LORD Himself told the Jews NOT to add nor take from the written word He gave to Moses, yet in their rabbinic texts, Mishna, Talmud, etc, they did just that.

 

3 hours ago, JimR said:

Many of the first Christians would not have known about Christ from scripture.  The average gentile would not have been intimately familiar with Hebrew scripture.  They might have been illiterate.  They learned about Christ from a preacher.  Paul asked, how will they know if someone does not tell them?  After hearing and believing, the indwelling Holy Spirit helped them understand.

Maybe we should say the truth is found in scripture and accurate preaching is based on scripture but reading scripture is not the only way to reach truth.  Scripture- based preaching is reinforced by the Spirit.

I believe today the Lord has given believers three tools for Christian growth and maturity: The written word of God, the local church (the preaching of the word of God), and the Spirit of God. All three are necessary to properly grow as a child of God; if we willingly reject to do even one, while using the other two, (no church, just read and pray), one will fall into apostasy, or at least, cease from growing. 

Now, in cases where one cannot utilize all three, (no {good} churches around, in prison, limited access to scripture, etc), then God will bless what we CAN do, if we DO it. But if we have all three, then we need to use all three.  

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Ukelelmike,

Another issue is declining literacy.  I teach grad students online and can attest that degree inflation along with the digital culture has greatly reduced reading comprehension.  People cannot read, understand or remember even one page of instructions.  How then can they be expected to read and comprehend the bible?  Attention spans, including my own, have shortened.  People need preaching more than ever but preachers must learn to keep it short.

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9 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Let me clarify my position...

I personally believe that God's word is our greatest source of knowledge regarding God.

However, Robycop (in my understanding of his post) said there was no other...cough cough..."intel" about God. God's word disagrees.

In fact, the verses that I quoted from Romans 1 are very clear. The knowledge of God is so clear, that it is MANIFEST in man...and men are without excuse.

Don't ask me to explain it, because I can't. However, I believe God.

  Ah, but such manifestation tells people there IS a God, but nothing about THE God. However, God said he counted the good deeds & intent of such people as righteousness. But there are very few people in the world today that haven't heard of THE God.

2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I wasn't saying they ARE true: I was using them as further examples like the Catholic use of tradition as being equal to/superior to scripture. I don't suspect much if any is true, especially since the LORD Himself told the Jews NOT to add nor take from the written word He gave to Moses, yet in their rabbinic texts, Mishna, Talmud, etc, they did just that.

 

I believe today the Lord has given believers three tools for Christian growth and maturity: The written word of God, the local church (the preaching of the word of God), and the Spirit of God. All three are necessary to properly grow as a child of God; if we willingly reject to do even one, while using the other two, (no church, just read and pray), one will fall into apostasy, or at least, cease from growing. 

Now, in cases where one cannot utilize all three, (no {good} churches around, in prison, limited access to scripture, etc), then God will bless what we CAN do, if we DO it. But if we have all three, then we need to use all three.  

  Many people today have learned of Jesus from a preacher, Granny, best friend, spouse, etc.  & have been saved without even reading a Bible. But the ULTIMATE source those people have employed has been Scripture.

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13 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  Ah, but such manifestation tells people there IS a God, but nothing about THE God. However, God said he counted the good deeds & intent of such people as righteousness. But there are very few people in the world today that haven't heard of THE God.

Why are you picking on this one scripture that I posted? What about the others?

13 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  Ah, but such manifestation tells people there IS a God, but nothing about THE God.

That IS NOT what the scripture says...is says quite the opposite.

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Looks to me as though that...which...may...be...known  OF  God is manifest in them...NOT the knowledge that there is a God. What can be known of God? A lot.

How did that which may be known OF God manifest IN them? Did they read scripture? It doesn't say, does it? I will assume that this is referring to Gentiles since Paul is writing to the Romans. Did the Gentiles have scripture? No. All that it says (in verse 21) is that at one time, they knew God. How? God showed them...that's how. How did he show them? Verse 20...that's how. They knew his eternal power and Godhead. Sounds like a lot more than just knowing that there is a God...

...and they are without excuse.**

** Now explain that away.

 

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2 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Why are you picking on this one scripture that I posted? What about the others?

That IS NOT what the scripture says...is says quite the opposite.

Romans 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Looks to me as though that...which...may...be...known  OF  God is manifest in them...NOT the knowledge that there is a God. What can be known of God? A lot.

How did that which may be known OF God manifest IN them? Did they read scripture? It doesn't say, does it? I will assume that this is referring to Gentiles since Paul is writing to the Romans. Did the Gentiles have scripture? No. All that it says (in verse 21) is that at one time, they knew God. How? God showed them...that's how. How did he show them? Verse 20...that's how. They knew his eternal power and Godhead. Sounds like a lot more than just knowing that there is a God...

...and they are without excuse.**

** Now explain that away.

 

EASY !

  Ever seen any ancient writings from such people that, not having been preached to by a missionary of God's, written about THE God?  Did any pre-missionary American Indians ever speak of Him ?

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49 minutes ago, robycop3 said:

EASY !

  Ever seen any ancient writings from such people that, not having been preached to by a missionary of God's, written about THE God?  Did any pre-missionary American Indians ever speak of Him ?

That's not what it says...

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So, which "God" is being referenced in Romans 1:19?  The same "God" that is referenced in Romans 1:18, since Romans 1:19 is grammatically a part of the same sentence as Romans 1:18.  That sentence begins at the beginning of Romans 1:18 and ends at the end of Romans 1:19.  So then, who is this God?  He is the God who reveals His wrath "from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men." (See Romans 1:18).  To me that sure seems like a reference unto THE God of heaven and of all-holiness.

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On 11/18/2019 at 4:26 PM, robycop3 said:

I am Sola Scriptura, as, doubtlessly, many other people here are also. That is, we believe that ALL our intel about God, & ALL His commands to us come from Scripture only, &  we don't believe any precepts or commands of worship not found in Scripture.

Sola Scriptura was only one of the five Solas of the reformation.  They are  Sola Scriptura, Sola Christus, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, and Sola Deo Gloria.

Scripture alone, Christ alone, Grace alone, Faith alone, The Glory of God alone.

Edited by Invicta

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Today i listened to a baptist sermon from Oak Creek WI.  Pretty sure the preacher was saying that being born again is an experience that you should be able to remember.  Perhaps not the exact day but likely the year and the place.  If so,  then that sounds like more than “scripture alone.”  If becoming a saved Christian requires an experience, then this is “scripture +”.  He also said a changed lifestyle is necessary to show the person really has converted. For that reason, he wants both a testimony and a delay as well as catechism prior to baptism and acceptance into church membership.

I wonder how many Independent baptist pastors would agree.  Can every saved Christian recall a conversion experience?  And how long do you want to wait before you baptize?

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