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What are Your Thoughts on Effeminate Men in the Name of Christ


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As someone who loved, lived, and breathed "hard preaching", I can attest that for me personally (and my wife), it became tiresome after a couple of years of it and left us wanting.

I could give my thoughts on it, but I won't...there are too many rabbit trails that it could lead to.

I've sat under all types of preaching...the type that has helped me the most is expository preaching. Pastors should preach the word, and that covers everything...from "hard preaching" to "soft preaching". As Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 3 (and he was pretty wise)...

Quote

1  To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

 2  A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

 3  A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

 4  A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

 5  A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

 6  A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

 7  A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

 8  A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

...and "time" includes preaching to the church.

Edited by No Nicolaitans
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1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

As someone who loved, lived, and breathed "hard preaching", I can attest that for me personally (and my wife), it became tiresome after a couple of years of it and left us wanting.

I could give my thoughts on it, but I won't...there are too many rabbit trails that it could lead to.

I've sat under all types of preaching...the type that has helped me the most is expository preaching. Pastors should preach the word, and that covers everything...from "hard preaching" to "soft preaching". As Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 3 (and he was pretty wise)...

...and "time" includes preaching to the church.

If someone screams and yells the whole sermon, that would get tiring really quickly. Hard preaching to me is just preaching the Whole council without apology, and when appropriate, showing some righteous indignation. 
I’ve heard a lot of preaching over the years on Eph 5:22-24, and if they expounded on it at all, it was to excuse it away with vs 21. Hard preaching would simply make a dominant woman in the church want to either leave or know that God is really not happy with her. If the preaching works, and is complete, the church would be full of men fulfilling their roles as leaders in the home and in the church rather than being less of a man because of their wive’s offense and behavior toward them.

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23 minutes ago, Paul Christian said:

If someone screams and yells the whole sermon, that would get tiring really quickly. Hard preaching to me is just preaching the Whole council without apology, and when appropriate, showing some righteous indignation. 
I’ve heard a lot of preaching over the years on Eph 5:22-24, and if they expounded on it at all, it was to excuse it away with vs 21. Hard preaching would simply make a dominant woman in the church want to either leave or know that God is really not happy with her. If the preaching works, and is complete, the church would be full of men fulfilling their roles as leaders in the home and in the church rather than being less of a man because of their wive’s offense and behavior toward them.

Preach the whole counsel, yes. and doing so, preach to BOTH genders ant the same time, ALWAYS. That way, you're getting the truth out without singling anyone out. Know what I mean? And if the following scripture is implemented and obeyed, the "aged men" will set their example and the "aged women" will teach the younger. This is why, IMO, a good start would be in not having "mixed" Sunday school classes and let those "aged" folks with all their knowledge and experience, teach the younger folks, in keeping with what the Bible says.

Titus 2 King James Version (KJV)

But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

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I'm sorry for going off topic, but I would like to interject:  If a pastor, or any other man wants a woman to do something; the right way is to come to her HUSBAND first.

 

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Edited by heartstrings
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7 hours ago, DaveW said:

So for asking for Scripture to back up your statements, I get no scripture, but I do get sarcasm??????

Really?

No, really. There is no scripture I can give you that directly correlates fear with honor and respect toward men. Fear God, honour the king, does not mean to fear the king.  

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26 minutes ago, Paul Christian said:

No, really. There is no scripture I can give you that directly correlates fear with honor and respect toward men. Fear God, honour the king, does not mean to fear the king.  

The word "respect: is not used in this scripture but the idea or principle is there. We are to respect or "be subject to" the "power", vested in certain men, that God has ordained. The only time we are to "fear" is when we do evil.

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

Edited by heartstrings
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54 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Preach the whole counsel, yes. and doing so, preach to BOTH genders ant the same time, ALWAYS. That way, you're getting the truth out without singling anyone out. Know what I mean? And if the following scripture is implemented and obeyed, the "aged men" will set their example and the "aged women" will teach the younger. This is why, IMO, a good start would be in not having "mixed" Sunday school classes and let those "aged" folks with all their knowledge and experience, teach the younger folks, in keeping with what the Bible says.

Titus 2 King James Version (KJV)

But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.

The kind of hard preaching that I appreciate is expounding on Deut 22:5, and not leaving out the women. If a pastor preaches what a man's garment is, then the women will be wearing skirts and dresses, and not breaches. Hard preaching on 1 Cor 11:14, 15 produces a congregation where the women are ashamed to have short hair, or the men having long hair. Hard preaching on Romans 10:13-15 causes the congregation to actually go out and give the gospel to the lost. I visited a church in Vancouver Wa this weekend and went to their Saturday and Sunday soul winning times. Barring some visitors from out of town, I believe that 90% of the congregation went out soul winning, and they have a third weekday time. In total, there were 60-70 soul winners going out, including the children. I have seen 12 year old's knocking doors and giving a complete gospel presentation. 

A church like that just makes you feel alive and useful. When those 80-90 people sing the hymns, I could barely hear my own singing, when I was singing as loud as I could without losing my voice. My wife loves it, because she isn't the best singer, and can cry aloud while singing without being self conscious. 

My wife gave up wearing pants due to hard preaching of the word that helped move her to change. It took her some time, but I didn't have to say a word to her. Just hearing the preaching and going to a church full of women in dresses was enough for her to act on her own. When we went to a baptist church where the women spoke to the congregation, she was set back by it, and didn't like it. I truly believe that these changes in her were due to the fear of God to disobey these commandments, or to disagree with what God calls an abomination, but that fear was prompted by preaching. 

We were invited to a church couple's house for dinner Saturday night. The husband is leading their nursing home ministry. The women toiled in the kitchen while the men spoke of leadership in ministry, as the church is sanctioning me starting a nursing home ministry where I live. Although I didn't realize it while there, in retrospect, I realize that the men and the women were doing by nature what God created them to do, without some rigid plan for the evening. 

While going soul winning, the men were setting up the maps and pairing people together. They had a little confusion during the process. I brought it up with my wife on the three hour drive home. She told me that her and the ladies that she was paired with didn't understand why they were doing it that way, because it didn't make sense. I agreed with them, but even I did not argue with the men leading it, and the ladies had a conversation later about it, talking about how they don't get to correct the men, and just have to do whatever they are told. Not as a bad thing, but as a right thing. 

I just don't see this kind of church happening without a firm hand on doctrine through hard preaching. Maybe it does, but I have not seen it. 

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3 hours ago, heartstrings said:

The word "respect: is not used in this scripture but the idea or principle is there. We are to respect or "be subject to" the "power", vested in certain men, that God has ordained. The only time we are to "fear" is when we do evil.

1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. 2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

 

"fear to whom fear, and honour to whom honour". I should have read the chapter I quoted. 

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1 hour ago, heartstrings said:

What goes wrong, in a church setting, is when some let the "fear and honour" turn in to "control".

A church only has authority over what happens in church, but screwed up people tend to get better when the church does it's job. I disagree with marriage counselling in the church, because everybody has a bible, and it doesn't take long to point out the verses that should be sounded from the pulpit. They will either obey the bible or not. I have seen many defeated men in churches over the years. Their wives like to say that they had to take control because their husbands won't. The reality was that the woman would end the marriage if the husband stepped up. I've seen the women leave as well. When God doesn't allow remarriage while the spouse is alive, the men are faced with being defeated in their home, or being single until she dies. A man cannot assert his authority when the wife is not in obedience to God. He can only pray and wait. I've seen pastors get deep into people's personal lives in the process of marriage counselling, and because they would not preach and teach hard on God's family structure, it ended poorly, and with the church leadership stepping into the marriage where they ought not, even counselling the wife separately. I looked at it like the church leadership was committing spiritual adultery with another man's wife, because the man is the head of his wife, not leaders in the church. This was a non-denom church, but I'm sure baptists are not immune. 

I am remarried, and I know what it was now to remarry now, but I am blessed with a Godly wife and a life lacking the strife that I have seen and endured, and it is undeniably due to hard, biblical  preaching, and having a common purpose in life that is well defined. 

I've seen women lead their husbands out of church when they heard things that they didn't like as well. You can mark that man as defeated. 

Edited by Paul Christian
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Wow!  I was out for the whole day, and while I was gone this thread discussion exploded a bit.

Brother Paul Christian,

Throughout this thread discussion you have now said some things with which I have hearty agreement.  However, you have also said some things with which I would have definite disagreement.  Now, I do not present that in order to "stir the pot" in anyway, and I do not have any spirit of animosity.  I had been pondering over the weekend whether to engage some of the earlier points of disagreement.  However, I am now leaning away from doing so simply because so much conversation has proceeded.

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I was taught, in church, that the reason that a family is out of order is solely the man's fault for not "leading". it was also taught, and still is, that if the husband will just "lead" the wife will "follow" and everything will be Ok, But common sense itself should tell anyone that isn't always the case.  Under this teaching, the ladies were given flowers and praised for being great moms on Mother's Day, but whenever father's day rolled around the men were always castigated. After these sermons you left with a helpless feeling that, because of all the innate shortcomings of church-men. the only "real man" in the house was the pastor. Consequently I've also known wives to say things like "I'll submit when my husband learns to lead". That kind of attitude is certainly not what the Lord intended ladies to have but you can't place too much blame on them when they're hearing teaching which is nowhere to be found in the Bible.  Paul, and Peter, on the other hand addressed BOTH genders in the same message and there was a reason for this. Even women are commanded  to "lead". How so? Notice the next verse;

 

 

Quote

 

1 Peter 3 King James Version (KJV) 1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

 

If that is not "leading" I don't know what is. So, instead of having an attitude like "I'll submit to my 'hubby' when he mans-up and leads", the Bible plainly tells women to "submit" anyway. Are men ignorant or just afraid to preach this? And while we're on submission, I don't recall ever hearing anyone expounding much on stuff like 1 Corinthians 7:3-5. Wow! That one passage could save alot of marriages in this sad, wretched world. I know people have to want to change, but they need the whole counsel of God. Love feeds off of love. How? Wife submits to the husband and makes him want to love and honour her, conversely, the husband loves and honours the wife and makes her want to submit. If that cycle is broken, it's not time to quit. Fix it by doing your part anyway instead of sitting back and saying I'll do mine when they do theirs. What's the title to this topic. Oh yeah, effeminate men, I'll get back to that. ?

The World demeans men and manliness every day and I've often wondered; has this hateful world taken away so much of the joy and honour of being a man, that it no longer appeals to many males? I'm not condoning effeminacy or anything; just an observation. But Christians are not to be like the World are we? No, we're supposed to build each other up, instead of tearing each other down. .God loves that.  BTW, Our eldest son, just took our grandson to Kentucky last weekend on a deer hunt. At 11 years old he got his first deer with a crossbow, and 3 more with a rifle. Man-stuff. ?

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9 hours ago, heartstrings said:

And while we're on submission, I don't recall ever hearing anyone expounding much on stuff like 1 Corinthians 7:3-5. Wow! 

Brother Wayne,

I know a pastor who preaches both confrontation and commendation unto both the men and the women of the church at appropriate times and through appropriate passages.  Indeed, I even know that that same pastor has preached on 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 in the public service of the church (carefully, yet publicly).

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar
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39 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Wayne,

I know a pastor who preaches both confrontation and commendation unto both the men and the women of the church at appropriate times and through appropriate passages.  Indeed, I even know that that same pastor has preached on 1 Corinthians 7:3-5 in the public service of the church (carefully, yet publicly).

Great! That's the way it should be.

Of course; some things should not be elaborated on, from the pulpit, any more than the Bible does. But such things, and others, need to be taught. That's why I believe, passages like Titus chapter 2 are there. Older, Godly, "sober minded" men  in the churches are to teach young men how to behave and how to treat their wives and families, and the Godly older ladies are to do the same. It's Biblical and necessary. My wife and I presently attend a Sunday School class where a younger man than myself, with his wife beside him, teaches the class.  His wife is a good lady, and I appreciate her very much, but she corrects her husband from time to time and then starts teaching herself.  Nothing wrong with what she says (except when she corrects her husband) but I just can't see how that could be what God would want for a Sunday School class. I believe the old grey-haired men, who have some of the hard knocks of "life" under their belt should be teaching the younger men the things young men need to hear and the older ladies should be teaching the young ladies for the same reasons. But with the opposite sex in a class, some things that need to be taught, cannot be. Or shouldn't be. Am I making sense?

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