Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

The Reason That God Will Allow Tribulation of The Saints


Recommended Posts

Bump,

I am interested in some of the older teachings on the Pre-Trib also.

Not because I don't believe it, in fact I believe there are a lot of things that become clearer to us as we draw nearer to the time of his return.



Bump. Preachers out there?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
  • Replies 44
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

All true born-again believers will be evacuated out of the earth at the Rapture. :smile

Revelation 3:10...Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. KJV 1611 AV.

God specifically says: I will also keep thee from This comes from EK---which is the Greek word meaning: "Out of." DIA is the Greek word for "through." God does NOT say "through", and will not allow the Tribulation of His Saints for the "Battle of Armageddon."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
God specifically says: I will also keep thee from This comes from EK---which is the Greek word meaning: "Out of." DIA is the Greek word for "through." God does NOT say "through", and will not allow the Tribulation of His Saints for the "Battle of Armageddon."


According to what you said, "God... will not allow the Tribulation of His Saints for the "Battle of Armageddon." If God was to pull the believers out before the wrath of God is poured out, which is at the end of the tribulation, God would be keeping his word, not subjecting us to "His" wrath.

Look where the revelation puts the rapture, all the way back in chapter 14, notice:

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

This is before the wrath is poured out. Notice:

Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast [it] into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand [and] six hundred furlongs.


What is the event in the above stated scripture?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You will have to bear with me as I am unpacking study notes from our move to our new house. :smile

I know that one must go back to the Book of Daniel (A Prophetic Book) to get the glimpse of Daniel interpreting the dream that King Nebuchadnezzar had. That would be around 605 B.C.

Also, prior to that---In the Book of Ezekiel 39:1-2...1 THEREFORE, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. 2 And I will turn thee back and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel: KJV 1611 AV.

Above---the scripture is speaking of Russia. As you know, Russia is so big that it has 2 capitals. Moscow is in the West and Leningrad is in the East. It is important to note that Russia will be the first to go against Israel---until she is defeated and sent back to Siberia.

The whole Book of Daniel is an entire prophecy of the End Times. Rather---what is going to happen in the "Battle of Armageddon." This will occur during the Mid Tribulation Period. Remember...Armageddon (WW 3) will be 3 Invasions of 42 months a piece...or 3 1/2 years---so, that will put us at the Mid Tribulation Period.

Armageddon will be an Atomic/Hydrogen Bomb (Nuclear Blast) with ALL the elements---going up in the sky as a cloud of smoke. Total destruction and bloody devastation. It is mentioned in Revelation 16:16...the word "Armageddon."

I would surely hope that Our Great God of love, mercy, hope, and righteousness would spare His Children from the bloodiest battle in ALL of history. Wouldn't you?

I have had a Premillennial View----until prior to my salvation in May of 2003. Prophecy led to my salvation. I truly believe that Jesus Christ will return before the Millennium. I take Revelation 20 literally---as I do the whole KJVO Bible. :smile I truly believe that Jesus Christ will reign on earth for a literal thousand years. I do NOT hold to the theories of many Protestant churches in the world who teach and preach that the world will end with the return of Jesus Christ. I am an Independent Baptist, through and through!! :thumb

God has promised over and over again in His Holy Word to the people of Israel---that He would NEVER destroy the world again. And, we know that Our God is a true gentleman, and does NOT break his promises. :amen: This situation exists between God and the Jewish people.

Just remember...PreacherBen, as I have tried to get into my finite mind...that men (even men of God---maybe unintentionally, I don't know...have been trying to twist God's truth for years. Believers are just as confused as the unsaved, sometimes...as the Devil tries to defeat our purpose of serving Our Lord and Saviour. As we all know...Satan hates God, Israel, and God's kids.

I know that going back into the OT helps me to better understand God's Word---both my wonderful IFB pastors' have taught me that the Bible is full circle. God bless.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
The Bible teaches that the entire Tribulation period - covered in the book of Revelation, Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 (in part) and other passages - is a time of God's wrath upon the whole earth. The NT church is promised that they will not undergo God's wrath.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thessalonians 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The context of the following is very clearly referring to the wrath poured out upon earth during the day of the Lord, not God's wrath on the lost sinner in Hell:

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Isaiah 13:6-13 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.


AMEN Jerry! Good post! :thumb
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Follow the reasoning, along with the Scriptures you've been quoted. Mid-Trib is a new twist on an old method of Satan's efforts to diminish the motivation for people to preach the Gospel with an imperative message of the immenent and unknown return of Christ. Mid-Trib is an old fence straddlin' trick, it seeks to appease both sides of a boring debate that can be emotionally charged with rhetoric if not understood in light of God's will for all saved people, to seek and to save that which is lost.

Now Preacher Ben, I love you in the Lord but I do believe this is the first time I've heard that there is no wrath of God in the form of seals being opened in the first 1260 days of tribulation, if tribulation didn't start, how would we know judgment had started in the Church, of which, we are a part of as born again saints. Maybe I missed your point.

When God looks at me, He sees Christ. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord because he trusted what God promised He was able to perform, and the ark was a type of 'rapture' for Noah saving him from the destruction prior to it taking place. Noah was safe in the arms of the ark and so too am I safe in the arms of the ark, Jesus Christ, who is the ark of the covenant which was a type of resurrection for it was removed from the earth as was Christ at the resurrection, so too to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (why not held over for the catholic purgatory for cleansing prior to entrance into heaven), also the dead in Christ rise first because they've been waiting longer then we all meet the Lord in the air to go to the judgment seat of Christ. I need duct tape, my head is spinning, this is so easy. All these things you know to be true. Pray the Holy Spirit for understanding.

Also, for Mid-Trib the Rapture is in Rev. 11:11-12 not ch.14 (I don't believe the 2 Witness are part of the Church and therefore not raptured but resurrected in front of everyone- they aren't symbolic of the Church either, in my sorry opinion) and it isn't the last trump of I Cor. 15:52. Check it. Plus Mid-Trib places you in Liberal Theology Position, or at least as Modern Textual Critics, because it doesn't accept the plain, literal meaning of the words except where it is impossible to do so ideology of Bible study. Please don't spiritualize God's Word, that's the Holy Spirit's job and He does it quite well. Take it to heart for real, if you haven't. If you have, get out of the Giant's Dungeon and preach the Gospel, brother. I believe the rapture takes place in Rev. 4:1-2, John here is a better symbol for the Church because he is a literal part of it and he's called up. See, ain't this rational? Logical?


Mid-Tribbers limit the time of the "Great Tribulation", Palatka51, to 1260 days not 7 years so if the tribulation only lasts the last 3 and a half years then the Church isn't judged. I believe we should judge ourselves continuously, especially prior to taking the Lord's Supper lest we be judged by chatisement. And what about Rev. ch.6-ch.11 (I betcha can't find the Church in ch.6-ch.11), aren't those during the first 3.5 years after John was called up to watch the opening of the seals and the blowing of the trumpet judgments? Maybe I mistook that you were asserting a brand new doctrine of Mid-Tribbers. Watch and Pray, I'm concerned for you.

Mid-Trips spiritualize huge chunks of scripture, Rev. 1-11. Tribulation begins at ch. 6 and Great Trib. at 7:14, only extreme spiritualists could ever reach as far to say it isn't. I'm very surprised to see that you're KJVO! Maybe I need to be telling you about sin... But stranger things have happened, like Sam Berkowitz leading lost sinners to Christ!

Daniel 9:27 is literal and specific, tribulation lasts 7 years.

Mid-Trib destroys immenency by displacing the Lord's rapture until after signs show his coming, which would be the Second Advent at the end of the 7 years trib. Think about the motivational affect that is lost for sinners to get saved. If we have to wait until Anti-Christ signs 7 year deal with Israel then we know when the Lord is rapturing His Church and it will not be as a thief in the night.

Mid-Tribbers of modern textual critics schools are prone to set dates on the Lord's Coming, which is wrong. Sorry, no nice way to say that, Cult Leaders.

We should be redeeming the time, not only are the days evil but the judgment seat of Christ is going to be a terror when we see what we could have done for Him. Preach the Gospel! Place your faith in Jesus Christ!

SoulReavers Unite!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Bro. SoulReaver,
First of all, thank you for your brotherly tone, we may not agree on all things, but we are still brothers under the blood of Christ and His finished work at Calvary!

You stated:

Now Preacher Ben, I love you in the Lord but I do believe this is the first time I've heard that there is no wrath of God in the form of seals being opened in the first 1260 days of tribulation, if tribulation didn't start, how would we know judgment had started in the Church, of which, we are a part of as born again saints. Maybe I missed your point.


As to clarify, I believe there will be seals openned when believers are still here, but they will not be afflictions upon believers. Isaiah clearly said:

Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.

God's lambs are never the object of his wrath. As to the starting point, Paul made it clear.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

We will notice those two events FIRST, not the rapture.

You said:
Mid-Trib is a new twist on an old method of Satan's efforts to diminish the motivation for people to preach the Gospel with an imperative message of the immenent and unknown return of Christ. Mid-Trib is an old fence straddlin' trick, it seeks to appease both sides of a boring debate that can be emotionally charged with rhetoric if not understood in light of God's will for all saved people, to seek and to save that which is lost


How do you figure??? I am a very active evangelist. My family shares Christ with the lost every chance we get. IF (and I do not claim to be a scholar on prophesy and may be wrong,) but if the rapture of the saved does not occur until after the last trump (of the seven trumpets,) then the church and the lost will go into the tribulation (not the Great tribulation,) and the deceptive powers of antichrist will be ever growing and deceiving the lost. If we are going to reach them, we better reach them NOW, while there is some restraint on "that wicked one." Oh, yes, I am not a (fence straddlin', clearing my throat, :wink ) Mid-tribber. I am pre-wrath.

When God looks at me, He sees Christ. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord because he trusted what God promised He was able to perform, and the ark was a type of 'rapture' for Noah saving him from the destruction prior to it taking place.


Yes, the ark is a type of God's miraculous protection, but can we be honest and say that pounding against the walls of the ark was the hellish nightmare of the wrath of God on the wicked world, NOT those who found grace in the eyes of God. Noah was not taken away from wrath, if we were to be honest with what happened in Noahs day, he was kept THROUGH the storm.

Also, for Mid-Trib the Rapture is in Rev. 11:11-12 not ch.14 (I don't believe the 2 Witness are part of the Church and therefore not raptured but resurrected in front of everyone- they aren't symbolic of the Church either, in my sorry opinion) and it isn't the last trump of I Cor. 15:52. Check it.


Again, just for clarification, I am not Mid-Trib. I agree, the two witnesses are not part of the church, nor sybolic of the Church and it's rapture. They are what they are, the two witnesses, probably for the Jews more than anything. I think there is a reference to the two lampstands in Ezk or Zech. And as to the phrase "Check it," I ask, "Against, what? someone elses pretrib notes???" I just want to read scripture. This is what started all of this.

Furthermore, I do not think the Book of the Revelation is chronological (from chap. 1-22.) It has to be seen as different views of the same book, because some of the events in the seals, trumpets, and vials, are the same events.

Alas, I have to get to work. I'll continue later.

In brotherly love,
Ben
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Greetings all. It's great to hear, or read, from you concerning the great and glorious 'Things to Come'. It's not my desire to change your views, but to challenge you to study more, as our conversation provokes the Holy Spirit to edify us as the Church and Bride of Christ. Any change, I pray, would only come through Him, who is able to change the heart. That being said, here is an answer, for what little worth it's deemed to have I can only thank God.

As to clarify, I believe there will be seals openned when believers are still here, but they will not be afflictions upon believers.


Dear Brother Ben, don't be as the farmer, who shot the chicken and killed the hen. While it is true that believers will be here on earth, it does not prove that they are part of the Church/Bride of Christ. The believers who are 'still here' are on the 'earth' and saved immediately after the catching away and prior to, during and after the seals' opening, therefore when God's Word says, or should I say the 'KJVO says', in Rev. 6:4 'to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another' that saved people are going to be killed, vs. 9 goes on to explain, 'slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:'. Also, one of the seals places 25% of the world under the power of Death on a pale horse w/Hades following. To me, it's more of a reach to say that there 'will not be afflictions upon believers' than to take the words literally and say there will be. Of course, I believe these are people saved after the Church has been raptured who will be 'underneath the altar' crying for vengence instead of 'about the throne' worshipping the Lamb who is worthy to open the seals. If God allows a portion of the Church to die mass deaths during the seal openings, then He is cutting off a portion of the Bride of Christ, no matter which way you juxtapose the chronology of the text, without taking it out of context. The seals are opened after worship by those who were called to be kings and priests and before those who were slain. Why stop there, jumble some more text to get what you want out of it, the Modern Textual Critics have,... just kidding. :tum

Granted, Noah was a weak comparison, the reason I included it was because Palatka51 used Noah as an example. I was using the example to draw a comparison not to paint a picture. Every detail of 'Things to Come' do not equate with other 'rapturous' events of covenant endings/beginnings, but I do believe they are comparative. One could say that Enoch was raptured prior to the tribulation of the flood and Noah lived through it to begin the new millennium. Again, weak.

Well, if we were to be honest, all the things we are discussing here are ALL in the KJVO, as well as in somebodies study notes. It it is a topic, somebody has written study notes whether it is pretrib, mid trib, pre-wrath, post trib, or what ever.
And as to the phrase "Check it," I ask, "Against, what? someone elses pretrib notes???" I just want to read scripture. This is what started all of this.


My phrase "Check it" was referring to my interpretation of the Scriptures by reading the Scriptures and honing your own interpretation, because I didn't mention any 'study notes' other than to reference what Mid-Tribbers/Pre-Wrath/Post Innocuous Tribulationists contend and for what reason(s).

And on that sorry note, I conclude.
Love, in Christ
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Bro. SR, you remarked:

While it is true that believers will be here on earth, it does not prove that they are part of the Church/Bride of Christ. The believers who are 'still here' are on the 'earth' and saved immediately after the catching away and prior to, during and after the seals' opening,


This is only if one espouses a Pre-Trib view. I do not believe Gentiles will be saved after the rapture if you compare it with the following:


Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

I believe the scriptures teach that the rapture will be the line of demarkation regarding the fullness of the times of the Gentiles. THEN, it will be time for God to deal with Israel specifically as a nation. Of course he is dealing with them now, but then in fullness.

Oh, and BTW, I would never shoot nor kill my hens, the little darlins' give us fresh eggs everyday? :wink

'KJVO says', in Rev. 6:4 'to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another' that saved people are going to be killed, vs. 9 goes on to explain, 'slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:


Rev. 6:1-6, the four horseman of the Apocolypse are a description of the entire tribulation. These are the things that are going to occur the entire time of the tribulation. The same passage, interestingly, can be found in Zech. 6:1-6. This is God's dealing with primarily, the Jew, and secondarily, the unbelieving world (not the believers.) Though believers (part of the bride, my call,) will be here (till the rapture,) they will not be the objects of the punishments of God. And, I want to interject, that the chapters of the Revelation CANNOT be taken chronologically in every case. Just as God kept his children "IN" Egypt, during the plagues, He will likewise keep His children until the fullness of the last Gentile believer is finished and He will call them out. Some, like now and throughout church history, will be martyred for their faith, these are, as Rev. 6:9 puts it,

"...the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Again, I believe this is hard to take because it rubs so much against our comfort zone. I was once a strong Pre-Tribber, but as I studied more of the word and less of others writings, I began to see what most of the fathers of our faith believed up until the last 100 years. This is not a RADICAL new view.

I believe these are people saved after the Church has been raptured who will be 'underneath the altar' crying for vengence instead of 'about the throne' worshipping the Lamb who is worthy to open the seals.


In my opinion, this is merely semantics. Under, around, at the foot of, in front of, etc. These are all prepositional phrases noting the proximity to the throne as opposed to not being there at all. Notice the text goes on to say,

Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

This is not the description of the [new phrase here] NON-Bride, but of fellowservants. Theys' us!

If God allows a portion of the Church to die mass deaths during the seal openings, then He is cutting off a portion of the Bride of Christ, no matter which way you juxtapose the chronology of the text, without taking it out of context.


How do you figure?

Your turn.

(Ben)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Brother Truthseeker the brother said:



To which you replied:



Actually if (and I have reason to believe we will,) we go into the first part of the tribulation, it will not be a time of horrible persecution. The first part of the tribulation in NOT a time of God's wrath, but a time to set all things in place for the final battle or the Great tribulation. God has promised he did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation. The tribulation is a time for God to bring punishment into the life of those who blashpheme the Lamb of God, not his children.

I believe the scripture teaches without a doubt that God will, by his Spirit, let his children know what is going on because are not like those who sleep, that is, those who are alive, but spiritually have their eyes closed and do not comprehend what is going on around them.

Truely saved people will not be in complacency, but awake (or awakened,) and active in this most pivitol time in earth's history. This is why the Lord said to watch and be ready.


Yes, you are correct. Sorry I didn't see this sooner. What I was commenting to there was what heartstrings had written. I was saying if that were to happen then that would be unimaginable. However as you mentioned it won't happen like that. We will be gone before then. I agree with that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Here is an attempt with MS Paint to make somewhat of a timeline if the Rapture is Pre-Wrath.

timechart.jpg

As stated, this is not an exact timeline, but a near proximity according to my studies. I will not fall into the trap of date setting and saying "This IS how it's going to be!" Prophecy is at best, yet a mystery. I do believe the worst part of the tribulation will happen VERY quickly. Consider this prophecy:

Zec 11:8 Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me.
Zec 11:9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
Zec 11:10 And I took my staff, [even] Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Zec 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it [was] the word of the LORD.

I believe these three shepherds are the Beast the False Prophet, and the Antichrist. Notice how quickly the Lord will exact his judgment, one month. It is also interesting to note that those who are waiting upon the Lord, the Jews, for the rapture has already taken place after the last trump, will know that it is the word of the Lord being fulfilled.

Again, I would like to invite anyone to compare the following texts and tell me without admixture of personal preference if they appear to be the same event.

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud [one] sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

We should never wrestle scripture to make it match our doctrine, instead we correct our doctrine so it will be inline with scripture...isn't that our motto (of sorts?)

Ben

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

CreatureBen, I assume from reading some of your earlier posts on our current subject that you espouse that the KJVO view is your position concerning God's Word. Within that assumption, I would believe you to have a literal sense of the words as they appear within the text, except where it is clear that the words are clearly understood to be symbolic. The problem is that you have twisted some texts to fit your view and stated that you don't believe that what the Bible says is true, or the fact that God does not change. I do reserve the right to have misinterpreted your explanation or that you have simply misinterpreted the scripture. Notice:

I do not believe Gentiles will be saved after the rapture


From Adam, all the way to Abraham God saved Gentiles. After God promised Abraham He continued to save Gentiles and gave examples in the Old Testament.
After the New Covenant commenced Jews have been getting saved while the fulness of the Gentiles is fulfilled. All of a sudden, you would have me to believe that no Gentiles will be saved during the Tribulation, regardless of 2 witnesses preaching w/ signs (regardless of the fact that Gentiles required no signs and still believed per Jesus) and 144,000 Jews preaching the Gospel (which lasts forever, the only people I know of who believe the everlasting gospel isn't the same that Jesus and the disciples preached are Mormons). I believe Gentiles and Jews will be saved and if they endure through the end will be the remnant that Jesus and the Church/Bride of Christ will reign over in the Kingdom of Heaven/Millenium.

I believe the scriptures teach that the rapture will be the line of demarkation regarding the fullness of the times of the Gentiles. THEN, it will be time for God to deal with Israel specifically as a nation. Of course he is dealing with them now, but then in fullness.


This is correct but it doesn't mean that He isn't allowing Gentiles to be saved. God is not willing that any should perish. Now is the time for Gentiles, nevertheless we still send missionaries to Israel.

I said, "I believe these are people saved after the Church has been raptured who will be 'underneath the altar' crying for vengence instead of 'about the throne' worshipping the Lamb who is worthy to open the seals."

You said, "In my opinion, this is merely semantics. Under, around, at the foot of, in front of, etc. These are all prepositional phrases noting the proximity to the throne as opposed to not being there at all. Notice the text goes on to say,..."


Am I to believe that you do not trust that these different words mean different things? Sounds like someone is something other than they would have us to believe.

Rev. 6:1-6, the four horseman of the Apocolypse are a description of the entire tribulation. These are the things that are going to occur the entire time of the tribulation. The same passage, interestingly, can be found in Zech. 6:1-6. This is God's dealing with primarily, the Jew, and secondarily, the unbelieving world (not the believers.) Though believers (part of the bride, my call,) will be here (till the rapture,) they will not be the objects of the punishments of God. And, I want to interject, that the chapters of the Revelation CANNOT be taken chronologically in every case. Just as God kept his children "IN" Egypt, during the plagues, He will likewise keep His children until the fullness of the last Gentile believer is finished and He will call them out. Some, like now and throughout church history, will be martyred for their faith, these are, as Rev. 6:9 puts it,

"...the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:"

Again, I believe this is hard to take because it rubs so much against our comfort zone. I was once a strong Pre-Tribber, but as I studied more of the word and less of others writings, I began to see what most of the fathers of our faith believed up until the last 100 years. This is not a RADICAL new view.


With the exception of the highlighted text, which you graciously admit is your opinion, I agree. However, this does not change the PreTrib view nor does it explain the validity of the PreWrath premise. I understand that God isn't doing this to saved people, but just because they get saved during the Tribulation does not mean that they are automatically exempt from collateral damage.

I said, "If God allows a portion of the Church to die mass deaths during the seal openings, then He is cutting off a portion of the Bride of Christ, no matter which way you juxtapose the chronology of the text, without taking it out of context."

You asked, "How do you figure?"


I don't figure this. You do. This is the natural descent of reasoning necessary to make PreWrath fit. You have to take scripture out of context in Rev. to make it fit the PreWrath view. Which brings us to this colossal mistake.

You matched 4 seperate scriptures together: Zech. 11:8-11
I Cor. 15:15-16
I Thess. 4:16-17
Rev.14:14-16
And then you stated this:
We should never wrestle scripture to make it match our doctrine, instead we correct our doctrine so it will be inline with scripture...isn't that our motto (of sorts?)


Your conclusion, in quotes, is true. The problem is, you did it. I would place Zech. 11:8-11 w/Rev.14:14-16 because of the context of the whole passage. These 2 scriptures are dealing with judgement for sin on unbelievers. I Cor. 15:15-16 and I Thess. 4:16-17 are dealing with consolation for believers. Just because we can take comfort knowing God will judge sin, doesn't mean we're to happy about it, but we can be happy knowing that He will comfort us amidst trials. Here's my explanation: Rev. 14 Shows us God's answer to the trinity of evil and their actions which are described in 12 and 13. At the close of 13 we see the "mark of the beast" which is Satan's 'gospel'. In 14, God's answer through the 144,000 preachers is clear in the phrase, 'and they sung as it were a new song', it was as if no one had heard the gospel before(because all saved were raptured) and it justifies God's Judgement which begins with the prophecy in vs. 8 of Babylon falling in chap. 18. Then in vs.9-13 we learn that all who take the mark are doomed which gives us the Judgement of them in vs. 14-20 because the harvest is ready for God's wrath. Picture it! A play is acted on the stage of earth, there is plot and subplot, characters and scenery. The winepress is the wrath of God on the world. The evil of humankind is ripe and ready for harvest. God's Judgement will cast evil into the winepress. Jesus has His sickle and reaps the evil at His Second Advent, hence the blood to the horses bridle. This a glimpse of the whole of the Tribulation and it's culmination, not a rapture within it.

Of course, the real question is, "Do you think your good enough to make it?" What if we're in Tribulation now? There is nothing from your view that would say we're not(Jehovah's Witness, Seventh-Day Adventist). Since we are kept from it, as you say, is it speaking literally or spiritually? If we see the signs (which are meant for the Jews) does that mean we're really Jews? Jesus says many will call themselves Jews who aren't, is that then or now? Why would anyone want to call themselves Jews then? Why would anyone want to call themselves Jews now? Maybe you could ask Jeremiah Wright or the Pope.

Sincerly,
Saved by Grace!

P.S. I'm glad you haven't shot the chicken yet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
CreatureBen, I assume from reading some of your earlier posts on our current subject that you espouse that the KJVO view is your position concerning God's Word. Within that assumption, I would believe you to have a literal sense of the words as they appear within the text, except where it is clear that the words are clearly understood to be symbolic. The problem is that you have twisted some texts to fit your view and stated that you don't believe that what the Bible says is true, or the fact that God does not change. I do reserve the right to have misinterpreted your explanation or that you have simply misinterpreted the scripture. Notice:

I do not believe Gentiles will be saved after the rapture


I am (for the English speaking people,) KJVO, but at heart I am a TR man, but that is another topic altogether, but suffice it to say, yes, I am a KJVO man. I would say that the Pre-Trib rapture view twists scripture to justify it's explanation, this will always be the case when one view is seen from the other, i.e., Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib, etc. It will always seen to the other that the one has twisted scripture. Though not offended, I do take GREAT exception to the remark regarding that I don't believe that what the Bible says is true. I not only believe that what the Bible says is true, I believe that most of the professing church is going to be in hell because of their gross neglect of her doctrines and teachings.

The reason I believe no Gentiles will be saved is because in God's sovereignty, he knows when the last one will be saved and he thus He calls it the end of the times of the Gentiles, perfectly working in harmony with the openning of the times of Jacobs troubles...Jacobs, not the Gentiles bride.

Am I to believe that you do not trust that these different words mean different things? Sounds like someone is something other than they would have us to believe.


Act 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.

Yes, different words can mean different things, and different words can mean the same thing. Notice the text above...a perfect example. NOTE: I am not trying to chase rabbits on the Acts text merely stating that different words can mean the same thing.

I understand that God isn't doing this to saved people, but just because they get saved during the Tribulation does not mean that they are automatically exempt from collateral damage.


Alas, it will be so, just as now and throughout church history.

You matched 4 seperate scriptures together: Zech. 11:8-11


Sorry, this isn't what I tried to imply. My reference to Zech has nothing to do with the texts from I Cor., I Thess, and Rev.

Thus your following comment:
Your conclusion, in quotes, is true. The problem is, you did it. I would place Zech. 11:8-11 w/Rev.14:14-16...etc

is mistakenly based on misreading what I meant. I wasn't trying to link Zech. with the other passages.

Zech. 11:8-11 w/Rev.14:14-16 because of the context of the whole passage. These 2 scriptures are dealing with judgement for sin on unbelievers.


This is plainly not true. You need to reread the passage. Verses 14-16 are not a reference to those being gathered for judgment, but being spared from it. Look it is clear at the following passsage:

Rev 14:17 And [also, insertion mine]another angel different from the one that called out those of the first harvest, insertion mine,] came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. Just like the one before him, insertion mine]
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

You absolutely cannot make the harvest of vss. 14-16 the same as the harvest of vss. 17-20, THAT, would be a perfect example of wrestling the scriptures. Someone is getting raptured out in vss. 14-16, it is clear.

Of course, the real question is, "Do you think your good enough to make it?"


How did the early church make it through? Only by the grace of God. If we go through, we will go through just as we go through everyday life, by the grace of God.

What if we're in Tribulation now?


Indeed!

There is nothing from your view that would say we're not(Jehovah's Witness, Seventh-Day Adventist).


I don't quite follow your reasoning, however, many of our Baptist forefathers believed the church was going into the tribulation. The Baptists of today are following a Plymouth Brethern teaching started in last (approx.) 100 years.

Since we are kept from it, as you say, is it speaking literally or spiritually?


All true believers will be kept spiritually, some literally.

If we see the signs (which are meant for the Jews) does that mean we're really Jews?


Brother, if you don't see the signs of times RIGHT NOW, you ain't saved!

Jesus says many will call themselves Jews who aren't, is that then or now?


Then, in the literal sense regarding the messsages to the churches that were then, and now if you view the messages to the churches as messages regarding church ages. I believe the messages to the churches were literal letters to churches then, and have some similarities to the church ages.

Why would anyone want to call themselves Jews then?


Because they were. They had missed the first coming and maintained their synagog (of Satan,) and persecuted the true believers and followers of the Lamb.

Why would anyone want to call themselves Jews now?


Your guess is as good as mine. We are engrafted branch.

Maybe you could ask Jeremiah Wright or the Pope.


I don't understand your meaning, please explain.

I'm sure I did a poor at best explanation, but alas, I'm not a theologian, nor the son of one, just a sinner saved by grace, called to be a saint, pressing toward the Kingdom of God, trying to bring as many as I can along for the journey.

Sojourning,
Bro. Ben
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...