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We don't need teachers to teach Scripture


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Yep, that's right. Newborn Christians don't need anybody to teach them Scripture, God'll just learn it to them without the help of you or me. This was a conversation in chat tonight with another forum member. Here's some of the comments that were made. You need to start from the bottom and read up, because of the way that chat works. One name was changed to protect the guilty. The conversation was started by talking about the need for people in the church to know more about Scripture.

OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:19 pm): Start it yourself if you like, I realized months and months ago you and I would nearly always be in opposition. :wink
Will (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:16 pm): OB Member 1, would you mind starting a topic on this in the Biblical Issues folder?
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:16 pm): Why do you think we need to walk in the Spirit?
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:15 pm): As far as "human teaching" of the bible, yes, that is where doctrinial errors come from...
Will (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:14 pm): But human teaching is bad?
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:14 pm): If there heart is not right they can't here it, because it is from God.
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:13 pm): God does teach.
Will (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:13 pm): So teaching is not bad? I thought teaching was bad, and that God was supposed to teach?
OB Member 1(Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:12 pm): Yes, he can.
Will (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:11 pm): So God does send teachers to teach Christians about Scripture?
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:11 pm): Or lost person seeking him for that matter...
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:10 pm): God will do the same for any Christian, new or old.
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:09 pm): God did lead him BY sending him Philp, there are many ways God leads...
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:09 pm): He was reading scripture, walking in the light he had, and God sent him more light.
5dumplings@home (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:09 pm): why didn't God lead him? Why did God send him a teacher?
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:08 pm): And God sent him Philp didn't he. :wink
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:08 pm): As you walk in the light you have, God gives more light, fail to walk in the light you have, and you will get more darkness.
5dumplings@home (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:07 pm): and the ethopian that Philip ministered to? How can I except some man teach me?
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:06 pm): John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 5d
Will (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:05 pm): Ok...we seem to be on a totally different topic then I think...OB Member 1, how about starting a thread on this in the Biblical Issues folder so we can discuss this?
5dumplings@home (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:05 pm): then,
5dumplings@home (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:05 pm): how do we learn, then to abide in Christ?
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:04 pm): Because we will not always abide in Christ.
5dumplings@home (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:04 pm): then why do we need the verse about our advocate with the father if we do sin?
Will (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:03 pm): Ok Seth, I think we've veered off the original topic here
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:03 pm): It means, abide in Christ, and you can not sin...

5dumplings@home (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:02 pm): But OB Member 1, what does IJohn 3:9 mean...not commiting sin?
Will (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:02 pm): Guide and protect them from what?
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:02 pm): Yes 5d, I sure do.
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:02 pm): If a new christian is abiding in Christ, Christ will guide and protect them just as he does older Christians.
5dumplings@home (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:02 pm): (and if any man sin, we have an advocate with the father...)
Will (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:01 pm): Ecc 2:9 So I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: also my wisdom remained with me.
5dumplings@home (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:01 pm): do you commit sin,OB Member 1?
OB Member 1 (Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:01 pm): John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot
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The "guilty" is apparently me so I will put my name to it right now. If I have the time and there is a need I will post on this tomorrow. Obviously wills title is a bit provocative and inaccurate. It also looks as if he may have edited out some of the things he said. lol

Grace and peace...

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The "guilty" is apparently me so I will put my name to it right now. If I have the time and there is a need I will post on this tomorrow. Obviously wills title is a bit provocative and inaccurate. It also looks as if he may have edited out some of the things he said. lol

Grace and peace...


I edited a few lines that had no relevance to the discussion, whether they were from me or from you.
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It sounds to me as if Seth is saying that if there are no teachers around, God can still teach those who are truly seeking to learn.

It also sounds as if Seth is saying that God does send teachers to some people and that through the teachers, God teaches those seeking to know Him.

From what I gather, Seth is against the idea of humans teaching in their own power and not as being guided by the Holy Ghost.

Anyway, that's what I gathered from reading the OP.

I do agree that it's easy for some new Christians to be led astray. This typically happens because they are seeking the wrong teachers rather than taking it to the Lord in prayer and relying upon God. Those I've known who have been led astray by the likes of Kenneth Copeland, for example, were led astray because they put their faith in Kenneth's teaching rather than seeking God in prayer and relying upon the Holy Ghost and whomever the Holy Ghost might send their way to help teach them...as with the Spirit sending Philip to the Ethiopian.

God sends some to be teachers. Satan, who can do nothing but copy God, sends forth a plethora of false teachers. This is why we MUST turn to God and trust His Spirit to teach us, either directly or through those teachers He sends our way.

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[quote="John81"]It sounds to me as if Seth is saying that if there are no teachers around, God can still teach those who are truly seeking to learn.

It also sounds as if Seth is saying that God does send teachers to some people and that through the teachers, God teaches those seeking to know Him.

From what I gather, Seth is against the idea of humans teaching in their own power and not as being guided by the Holy Ghost.

Anyway, that's what I gathered from reading the OP.

I do agree that it's easy for some new Christians to be led astray. This typically happens because they are seeking the wrong teachers rather than taking it to the Lord in prayer and relying upon God. Those I've known who have been led astray by the likes of Kenneth Copeland, for example, were led astray because they put their faith in Kenneth's teaching rather than seeking God in prayer and relying upon the Holy Ghost and whomever the Holy Ghost might send their way to help teach them...as with the Spirit sending Philip to the Ethiopian.

God sends some to be teachers. Satan, who can do nothing but copy God, sends forth a plethora of false teachers. This is why we MUST turn to God and trust His Spirit to teach us, either directly or through those teachers He sends our way.[/quote]

God has given the gift of teaching to the church in order to teach believers. We are to make disciples of new believers. New believers are to be taught. Seth seems to be under the impression that just reading the Bible and praying is going to lead one to correct doctrine and teaching. That's far from being true. There are many passages of Scripture that are difficult for Christians, particularly new Christians, to understand, and so teachers must teach.

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There's a lot to consider in a topic like this, and when you compare scripture you'll come to the conclusion that God does use teachers to teach; but also teaches without the use of a teacher.

Paul says many times "These things teach," or "Bishops must be apt to teach." If there was no need for a teacher then God wouldn't have them appointed.

However, there are also instances in scripture where men are taught something that they did not learn from a teacher. Peter, when asked who Jesus was, responded "The son of God." Jesus then said, "Blessed are you, for you were not taught this by men but by God." Paul, I believe in 1st Corinthians 1, said that He was not given the Gospel by men but by God.

So, all in all, God does not ALWAYS use teachers; but uses teachers indeed.

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[quote="Kenny5682"]There's a lot to consider in a topic like this, and when you compare scripture you'll come to the conclusion that God does use teachers to teach; but also teaches without the use of a teacher.

Paul says many times "These things teach," or "Bishops must be apt to teach." If there was no need for a teacher then God wouldn't have them appointed.

However, there are also instances in scripture where men are taught something that they did not learn from a teacher. Peter, when asked who Jesus was, responded "The son of God." Jesus then said, "Blessed are you, for you were not taught this by men but by God." Paul, I believe in 1st Corinthians 1, said that He was not given the Gospel by men but by God.

So, all in all, God does not ALWAYS use teachers; but uses teachers indeed.[/quote]

But in the instance of Peter, nobody can believe that Christ is who He is unless God has taught them. That's something that has to do more with salvation than learning about theology. The same applies to Paul. Remember, Paul had a supernatural revelation on the road to Damascus.

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[quote="Will"][quote="John81"]It sounds to me as if Seth is saying that if there are no teachers around, God can still teach those who are truly seeking to learn.

It also sounds as if Seth is saying that God does send teachers to some people and that through the teachers, God teaches those seeking to know Him.

From what I gather, Seth is against the idea of humans teaching in their own power and not as being guided by the Holy Ghost.

Anyway, that's what I gathered from reading the OP.

I do agree that it's easy for some new Christians to be led astray. This typically happens because they are seeking the wrong teachers rather than taking it to the Lord in prayer and relying upon God. Those I've known who have been led astray by the likes of Kenneth Copeland, for example, were led astray because they put their faith in Kenneth's teaching rather than seeking God in prayer and relying upon the Holy Ghost and whomever the Holy Ghost might send their way to help teach them...as with the Spirit sending Philip to the Ethiopian.

God sends some to be teachers. Satan, who can do nothing but copy God, sends forth a plethora of false teachers. This is why we MUST turn to God and trust His Spirit to teach us, either directly or through those teachers He sends our way.[/quote]

God has given the gift of teaching to the church in order to teach believers. We are to make disciples of new believers. New believers are to be taught. Seth seems to be under the impression that just reading the Bible and praying is going to lead one to correct doctrine and teaching. That's far from being true. There are many passages of Scripture that are difficult for Christians, particularly new Christians, to understand, and so teachers must teach.[/quote]

I do believe God gives the gift of teaching to some people just as Scripture says. All I was saying was how what Seth said in that exchange sounded to me. Until or unless Seth let's us know if how I understood him is correct or not, that's all I can say on that aspect.

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As I recall that little chat started out as a discussion that, among other things, touched on the lack of biblical knowledge many church members have and how that lack of knowledge makes it easier for the devil to lead them astray. Will opinioned that this lack of knowledge was primarily the fault of churches for failing to teach them the truth and I opinioned that it was primarily the fault of the individual for failing to seek the Lord and listen to the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Then things sort of took off. :lol:

I stated that if a Christian, any Christian, new or old was obeying God and walking in the light they had God would protect them from false doctrine and lead them into more light in one way or another. I stated that God would not allow a Christian abiding in him to be lead astray by Satan. I stated that Christians, new and old, fell into errors only after they chose to go against what God had already showed them, and thus failed to abide in Christ.

Seems somehow will decided that being taught of God was not accurate, said that a new Christian would be helpless without older Christians to teach him, said that a new Christian(apparently in spite of the Holy Spirit) wouldn't be able to come up with correct doctrine just by reading scripture, and said without older Christians the new Christian would be sucked into false doctrine(again, apparently in spite of the Holy Spirit). I disagreed, so will said I was teaching false doctrine based on nothing but my own opinion, later asked if I was God, and said he would like to see me defend this in a thread. I told him to go ahead and start a thread if he wished, he did, and here we are. :Green


Now, enough background, so to the post.

I believe these verses establish it is the job of the Holy Spirit to teach the Christian, and that the Holy Spirit guides and directs each believer, new or old, as long as long as that believer will listen to him. Further, the Holy Spirit can teach with or without a human teacher, and he will teach the ready heart as he sees fit.


[color=#0000FF]"John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, [u]he will guide you into all truth[/u]: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."[/color]

[color=#0000FF]"John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, [u]And they shall be all taught of God.[/u] Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."[/color]

[color=#0000FF]"1 Corinthians 2:10 [u]But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit[/u]: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God."[/color]

[color=#0000FF]"1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: [u]for ye yourselves are taught of God[/u] to love one another."[/color]

[color=#0000FF]"1 John 2:20 [u]But ye have an unction from the Holy One[/u], and ye know all things."[/color]

[color=#0000FF]"1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and [u]ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.[/u] "[/color]


Now that we have established that the Holy Spirit is the teacher of the Christian lets go on to show that if a Christian is abiding in Christ, no matter if he is new or old, he cannot fall into sin.


[color=#0000FF] "Jude 1:24-25 [u]Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling[/u], and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen."[/color]

Jude tells us here, that not only is God able to take us to heaven, he is able to keep us from falling(into sin) in this life.



[color=#0000FF]"2 Peter 1:5-10 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: [u]for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall[/u]:"[/color]

Peter is basically giving a definition of abiding in Christ. At the end of all this, he says if you do this you will never fall(into sin). Now obvious all of us will fall into sin at times, but that is our own fault for not abiding in Christ.


[color=#0000FF] "1 John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."

"1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming." [/color]


These verses imply much the same thing, but not quite as directly.


[color=#0000FF]"John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me."[/color]

Now what fruit is this we will bear if abiding in him?

It is found in these two places:

[color=#0000FF]"Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."

"Ephesians 5:9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;)"[/color]


That fruit is not compatible with the fruit of error. Therefore, if you are abiding in Christ you are not going to fall into error, even if you are a new Christian, which was my point to begin with. I am not suggesting that we should not help new Christians to learn, we should indeed do that as much as we are able, however, the Holy Spirit is the one who must do the teaching, and he will if the person has a ready heart. If a believer, new or old, falls into sin he has no excuse, he CHOSE not to listen to the Spirit at some point, the Spirit didn't just leave him alone to stumble along into sin.

Now from the tone of the chat(which is only partly posted) I think that Will may have known exactly what I was saying but for some reason wished to attempt to catch me in my words... but.... perhaps I am mistaken and he just misunderstood me. I hope, and will try to assume the latter until I know the former beyond reasonable doubt. :wink

Whew... long winded post...


BTW John, your assessment is essentially correct.

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Well, when I saw this post...I really thought that Will fell off of his rocker. :nutty :lol: I will most definetly agree with Will here, b/c we do need to disciple new believers. When I first started to go to my old IFB church...they did not have a discipleship class in place at the time. Once I went through the class...and, YES...the KJV Bible was the sole authority, I began to really grow. I thought I was saved in March of 1998...but, as the Holy Spirit worked on my heart, through His Holy word, and His teachings...The Lord told me, otherwise. As a "former" school teacher I firmly believe that new Christians are to be taught...(mentorship...they call it). Someone needs to take that "baby" Christian under their wing and disciple them. Otherwise, the Devil will work mighty hard to lead that person (who is saved...or on their spiritual journey to salvation) astray! I have found this to be true of myself...and, also of other people. [color=#0000FF] II Timothy 2:2...And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit (that is a banking term. To take the truths and deposit into a life investment) thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. KJV.[/color] II timothy - Pastoral Epistle. [color=#0000FF]Hebrews 8:11...AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERY MAN HIS NEIGHBOUR, AND EVERY MAN HIS BROTHER, SAYING, KNOW THE LORD: FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST. KJV.[/color] [color=#0000FF]Titus 2:1-7...But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: That the aged (older) men be sober (sensible), grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of things; That they may teach (train) young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blashphemed. Young men likewise exhort to be sober (self-controlled) minded. In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, (soundness) gravity, sincerity. KJV.[/color]

I really began to grow as a Christian woman through the women's Bible study group at my old IFB church. My IFB church has a women's prayer group. I truly believe that these are opportunities for women to continually grow in Christ. And, the men's prayer breakfast at my old IFB...and, the men's Bible study at my IFB will surely help men mature in their walk with the Lord. Also, I wanted to say, that, older Christians enjoy the "mentoring" of "baby" Christians because it blesses them immensley, and...they can learn from these "newbies"...as well. :smile God is concerned with our growth...He is interested in the fact that we are moving forward in our walk with Him. Teaching is essential in learning the scriptures! What an honor and a privelege it is to serve Our wonderful Saviour, Jesus Christ!

candlelight

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[quote="Revelation3:20"]I don't think the point was truly "We don't need teachers to teach Scripture". It looks more like the point was that the Holy Spirit is the main teacher and all teaching must come through him.[/quote]

Thank the Lord! If men were left to their own devices? WOW!!! :roll :eek :lol: :-S

candlelight

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