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What does 'Israel' mean in the Old Testament and in the New?

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33 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

You couldn't quote just one more verse, which answers your question?  I have already spoken about that verse in this thread.

I didn't need to quote just one more verse, because it doesn't do what you suggest.

The plain fact is that God, through the Apostle Paul, refers to the nation of Israel as Israel AFTER your appointed time of Him so called rejecting them.

God still consider national Israel to be Israel, REGARDLESS of the next verse.

I am not by the way rejecting the rest of the passage, just pointing out that the next verse and continuing do NOT nullify the point of verses 3 - 5.

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Oh yeah, you still haven't done the basic thing of good manners and introduced yourself in the intro section.

I don't think I have ever joined a forum that didn't have an introduction section, and it was simply expected as part of decent forum etiquette that any new member posted a formal introduction post. In some fora I have been a part of you could not post anywhere except the intro section until after you had posted an intro post.

This is the only place I can remember where so many people not only don't automatically post an intro, but actually refuse to do so when asked.

In the overwhelming majority of cases where people refuse to post an intro, it turns out that they are only here to cause trouble. Just an observation.....

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20 hours ago, Shoostie said:

How does that answer anything I've said?  I asked how a promise, or Jesus, can have natural branches, when they don't have children.  They don't have natural branches, therefor they aren't the Olive Tree in Romans 11.  The Olive Tree is Israel.

How can you even say no where does it say his house is equal to Israel?  David is of Israel, therefor his house is of Israel. 

David is physically part of Israel after the flesh but we are not talking about a physical Olive Tree with physical branches or the physical people after the flesh. We are  talking about the Spiritual Olive Tree  that is in the House of God, which is Christ. Because David trust in Christ He is in the Spiritual Tree. He is not in the tree by mere fact of being of Israel but by faith which is the oil that flows from the Olive Tree of God.

Psalm 52 To the chief Musician, Maschil, A Psalm of David, when Doeg the Edomite came and told Saul, and said unto him, David is come to the house of Ahimelech. 1 Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth  continually. 2 Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully. 3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah. 4 Thou lovest all devouring words, O thou deceitful tongue. 5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah. 6 The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him: 7 lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness. 8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever. 9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

The Natural Branches are those that were born into the physical covenant nation of God to whom "were committed the oracles of God" they had the most opportunity to believe before being cut off by sin, unlike the Non covenanted nations who were "wild" by NATURE. 

Edited by John Young

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14 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

David is the olive tree, Jesus is the olive tree, and the Promise is the Olive tree, have all apparently been floated as the Romans 11 Olive Tree in, in this thread.  Two of those have no natural branches.  Who are the natural branches of David?  Jesus was one.  But, really, you want to limit the Olive Tree in Romans 11 to just the descendants of David and graphed-on Christians?  The Olive Tree in Romans 11 isn't David, and even if it is David, he's part of Israel, and so Christians are still Israel.  

No, we're not talking about an olive tree with physical branches.  I'm talking about an olive tree that represents Israel and the branches are the natural children of Jacob.  And, Christians are graphed onto that tree and the natural branches without faith are cut off.  I don't know what you're talking about.

In the garden of God there were two main trees, The Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 3). In Israel's Temple for God, (The physical house Solomon built for God) there were two cherubs in the oracle room made of Olive Trees and overlaid in Gold along with two doors made of olive trees (1 Kings 6:23, 32). Zechariah was shown these two trees conveyed oil into the Seven Lamps of God (the seven spirits of the churches) that lighted and guided the churches of God (Zechariah 4, Revelation 1:20). In regards to mankind these two trees/testaments are mediated by two shepherds/ anointed ones/ Moses and Elijah, one representing Law/flesh (Bands) and the other representing Grace/spirit (beauty). In regards to Israel, their churches/synagogues were to be guided and fed with oil from from both trees but their shepherds stopped up the flow so God said he would break both "staffs". Bands which was for Israel and Beauty which was for all people. Beauty was paid for instead of broken and it was sacrificed on the cross and Israel the nation was disbanded. It goes on to say that Israel's shepherds would go on using broken Bands but would be blinded to Beauty and therefor would not see Christ (THE BRANCH, Zechariah 3:8, 6:12) coming to them from that olive tree of Life (Zechariah 11). This Leading up to the tree in Romans 11 shows the Olive Tree they were cut off from was the tree of Life that is in the garden of God and from Christ and faith in him even though they still trusted in Bands (which was broken).

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Edited by John Young

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13 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

Verse six, which you didn't quote, nullifies your position. Yes, the Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory... but the adoption, glory, etc does not apply to all of Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh, because not all Israel (the flesh) is Israel (of God).  And, then Paul goes on to belabor that point.  

 

Oh you mean this verse 6:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

You mean this verse where God makes a distinction between physical Israel, STILL CALLING THEM ISRAEL.

Why would God refer to them as Israel, if He no longer considered them to be Israel?

So this verse, like the previous ones I mentioned, STILL POSE THE PROBLEM for you that God Himself continues to make the distinction and refer to national Israel as Israel.

Now are you seriously suggesting that the covenants etc are not regarding national Israel, "of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came"...?

4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 

 5  Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

You need to understand context, because vs 3, vs 4, and vs 5 are all referring to national Israel.

Paul designates it in vs 3, and national Israel is ABSOLUTELY still the subject and the people through whom Christ came. 

You cannot change the context at a whim.

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4 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

Next time you post, I expect you to claim something else is the Olive Tree in Romans 11.  So far in this thread, instead of the correct answer of Israel, we have the Promise itself, Jesus, David, and now the Tree of Life have all been offered as the Olive Tree in Romans 11.  

Who are the natural branches of the Tree of Life? 

As I stated before...In regard to the context of Romans 11....

4 hours ago, John Young said:

The Natural Branches are those that were born into the physical covenant nation of God to whom "were committed the oracles of God" they had the most opportunity to believe before being cut off by sin, unlike the Non covenanted nations who were "wild" by NATURE. 

The Wild Branches in the context of Romans 11 are those who in spite of being born in other nations that had no covenant of service with God (Bands), going their own ways, and therefor no oil flowing to them, they heard the words of Life and were graphed in to the Tree Of Life (Beauty).

In Paul's day only the Jews were teaching the precepts of God and were therefor the natural Branches that led to the tree of life. Today the natural branches are those born to Godly Families of all nations that attend Godly churches that "flow the oil" by teaching Christ. These are the churches that are lead by the seven angels to which flow the light of Christ. They were present in the synagogues of the Jews and they are present today in the churches of Christ.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Zechariah 4:2-3 and said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold [the churches synagogues], with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: 3 and two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.....11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side  thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches [bands and beauty, Moses and Elijah, law and grace,] which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength....20 the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches....Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent....Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Zechariah 11:17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

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On 9/13/2019 at 2:50 PM, Shoostie said:

There no longer is a nation of Israel. Once Jesus came, ethnic Israel no longer served a function.

According to the Romans 9: 3-5 AND 6 God disagrees with you.

If you were right, and there was no longer a nation of Israel after Jesus Came, then WHY does God refer to national Israel as Israel?

It really is not that hard to understand.

And you still haven't introduced yourself in the intro section...….

That also is not hard to do, nor is it hard to understand why you should do it.

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23 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

 

You're arguing against your false caricature of the doctrines of others.  No one said God no longer considers anyone to be Israel.   The unbelieving Isrealites were never the Israel of God and the believing Israelites are eternally the Israel of God.  You've been studiously ignoring the argument that has been presented to you, that there are two Israels one of the flesh and one of the Promise.   

Not all Israel is Israel.  

You define Israel as ethnic Israel, and then read that into scripture everywhere, even though Paul is clear there are two Israels.  And, Paul is clear that Christians are part of Israel.  

 

 

 

This is a blatant and total misrepresentation of what I have said.

Clearly Paul sees national Israel -his brethren according to the flesh, as legitimately Israel - he names them as such.

National Israel is Biblically referred to as Israel twice in this passage.

I have nowhere said that every reference to israel is "ethnic Israel"  ( in fact I have not used that term at all).

But plainly God refers to national Israel as Israel after your designated timing.

You are not only twisting my words, you are also twisting Scripture.

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Let’s make this really simple so you can follow it.

 

Rom 9:3-8

(3)  For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

 

(4)  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

(5)  Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(6)  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

(7)  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

(8)  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

 

His kinsmen according to the flesh can only be national Israel. No other option is possible.

And to emphasise that fact, the Nation was adopted by God (Abraham was called from another nation), the Glory of God was revealed to the nation of Israel (To Moses, then to the nation by the plagues, deliverance from Egypt, Protection and provision in the wilderness), the Covenants were given to the Nation of Israel (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then to the Nation as the covenant of the Law), the Nation was the ONLY NATION called to serve the Lord specifically, with Laws, rules, regulations, and commands on how to do so, and the only nation to which the promises of God were given.

Then verse 5 speaks of the fathers of that nation, and that nation of whom “concerning the flesh Christ came”……. All of this is fulfilled in the Nation of Israel.

Everything in verses 4 and 5 is clearly referring to the history of the nation of Israel

And THEN there is the point that not all Israel is of Israel. I HAVE NEVER DENIED THAT.

But if you notice, the division is then very quickly turned to refer to some of them as the children of God – this is the division WITHIN THE NATION, that there are those who are the children of the flesh (unsaved) and those who are the children of God (Saved), but the subject is ISRAEL.

The point that Paul is making is that being an Israelite never saved anyone...….

The division is saved Israelites and unsaved Israelites.

 

And to make this ABSOLUTELY PLAIN  you said:

There no longer is a nation of Israel. Once Jesus came, ethnic Israel no longer served a function. Isaiah 65:8-9 tells us why God held off on destroying Judea, when he destroyed Israel after declaring He was not their God and they were not His people, Hosea 1:9.

The nation of Israel is an impostor.  You can call a weed a rose, it doesn't make it so.    That weed is particularly noxious, very much the opposite of a rose.”

 

 

You clearly said “There no longer is a nation of Israel…..

And yet Paul refers to national Israel twice in the very verses you are trying to twist.

How do you reconcile your statement that “There no longer is a nation of Israel” when God clearly refers to national Israel in this very passage?

 

 

 

And you still have not done this board the basic common courtesy of introducing yourself in the intro section.

 

Edited by DaveW

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So in other words you don't like what Paul wrote under the inspiration of God and so you choose to ignore it.

No point in continuing this, as you obviously are only here to push false doctrine.

And you still refuse to properly introduce yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.

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You quite obviously did not read my posts properly or you would not misrepresent my posts the way you do.

In any case, it is time to move on from this argument as you obviously cannot read either my responses nor the Bible correctly.

I refer you to another passage:

Rev 7

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

God here refers to the tribes of the children of Israel, and to his use of them in the end times.

Why is it that God STILL refers to Israel in the end times?

 

And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.

Edited by DaveW

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21 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

The tribes in Revelation 7 no longer exist in a literal sense.  Revelation's reference to them is symbolic.

You just hop from one place to another, as you lose points in one place after another.   Given not all Israel is Israel, how can that be?  Why don't you answer questions against the core of your doctrines?

 

Excellent - so then which tribe are you a "spiritual part" of?

Rev 7

4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

 5  Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

 6  Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

 7  Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

 8  Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

You deliberate misrepresented my points from the previous passage, and refused to answer the actual point, so there was no further point in continuing there. Everyone else could see my point, as evidenced by the likes of my posts. Why you could not is simply because you refuse to.

So it was time to move to another passage where God refers to national Israel AFTER you say they no longer exist.

So then...... how do you explain that God refers to "the tribes of the children of Israel" and then refers to each tribe BY NAME  after the time that you say Israel no longer exists?

And in your answer you probably need to show an instance of where the specific phrase "the children of Israel" is used to refer some group OTHER than physical Israel. It might be there, but I haven't found it yet.

 

Why is it that God STILL refers to Israel in the end times?

 

And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.

Edited by DaveW
Paste from previous added extra

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1 hour ago, Shoostie said:

Why don't you answer questions against the core of your doctrines?

Ummmmm - I just went back and I can only find 1 question and it was a stupid question which you answered yoursel, so I didn't need to.

Can you give ANY EVIDENCE from the passage that it is symbolic?

It isn't symbolic just because you say it is - there must be a reason for it to be considered symbolic.

And why would God go to all the trouble of naming and designating the VERY TRIBES if they didn't exist in the time that God is referring to.

As far as Only 144000 jews left..... Have you actually read the passage?

Nowhere does it indicate that these are the ONLY israelites left..... go back and read the actual passage and report back.

Let's just ask the question - if God wanted to indicate that these 144000 young men from the individual tribes of the nation of Israel, how would he have to write it to convince you?

He uses the term "the children of Israel" which I contend ALWAYS refers to the Nation of Israel; He refers to each of the twelve tribes BY NAME, distinctly indicating each of the twelve individual tribes.

 

It appears as though your only evidence for it being a "highly symbolic" passage is that you want it to be, and if it is not it proves you are 100% wrong that God is finished with the nation of Israel.

Your proposition that "I'm right and you're wrong" is not evidence of any kind.

Oh yeah - do you really think that God can't preserve the tribes if He so wishes? 

 

I could not follow such a limited god. I prefer the God of the bible to your weak version.

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18 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

Your evidence is a highly symbolic passage of 12Kx12 Isrealites.  The tribes don't exist today.  These tribes not only don't exist today, they can't exist today because a tribe can't be preserved by people who don't know their tribe.  Your evidence is a highly symbolic passage that defies being taken literally.   You can't make them exist by insisting Revelation 7 refers to 12 distinct tribes existing today.  You can't be right about Revelation is your doctrine requires something to exist that doesn't exist.

Why 144,000?  Do you think in the end times, there will only be 144,000 "Jews" left?  Do you think they can really be servants of God today if they've rejected Christ?  And, if they've accepted Christ, who are you to say they're not spiritual Israel that includes Christians? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry, I just can't believe that this is your so called reason for this passage being symbolic.......

For starters although you say the tribes don't exist today, you are wrong. Many Israelites today know their tribe, whether you believe it or not.

I have spoken to some of them, and they are certain they know.

Secondly, even if "the tribes don't exist today" ( which is incorrect) why would you think God wouldn't know which tribe was which?  And that if He wanted to He couldn't resurrect the tribes for this purpose? What sort of god do you follow?????

This is your "proof"?

That the tribes no longer exist so the passage must be symbolic?

But if the passage is not symbolic then the tribes must exist....... your reasoning is circular.

You are trying to prove that the tribes don't exist because the passage is symbolic, and the passage is symbolic because the tribes don't exist......

I have already shown that God refers to national Israel after the time that you say they ceased to exist (whether you accept that or not).

And this passage, stating by name the tribes that are part of "the children of Israel", also proves that national Israel exists after the time that you say they ceased to exist.

And by the way I can keep this up. There are plenty more passages that refer to national Israel from Acts onwards.....

 

 


And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.

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9 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

The tribes don't exist today.  You've never spoke to anyone who knew what tribe they're of.  You've spoken to kooks who have decided on their own that they belong to a certain tribe.  Maybe you should have asked "How do you know?"  Did they marry someone of the same tribe?

They don't exist for God to know one from another.  As explained to you, a tribe can't be preserved by people who don't know what tribe they're from.  Most of the tribes have been lost for over 100 generations.  They are loooooooong gone, and are completely mixed with practically every person on Earth.

How would God resurrect a tribe?  Have 2000-year-old bones jump out of the ground?  If God's going to do that, then I can say they're from before Christ.

Don't expect me to change my doctrine because you insist something exists that doesn't exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So you are legitimately going to base your whole argument on "I'm right and you're wrong"?

You are unbelievable.....

All I can say to you is that your assessment of the people I have spoken to is totally wrong and based on absolutely zero evidence. It is based only on your wanting to be so.

You are so deceived.....

And your god is not the God of the Bible, for my God can do what He promises.

When He notes the 144000 as " the children of Israel", and designates them by naming each and every tribe, I MUST believe that He has preserved the tribes, and I KNOW He is able to do whatsoever He promises.

Your whole argument is based only on your wanting it to be so, but it just isn't. 

I have presented verses, passages, and Biblical evidence, and reported first hand information to back up my position.

You have done nothing more than say I am wrong.

I genuinely feel sorry for you - the god you follow is weak and small, and not the Almighty,  all-knowing, all-powerful God of the Bible.

 

 


And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.

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48 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

KJVO only people measure the accuracy of other Bibles by comparing it to the KJV.  They'd compare the original manuscripts to the KJV and declare the original manuscripts full of errors.  That's what you do, you measure the world by your doctrines, and then deny the world is wrong when it doesn't match your doctrines.

Your doctrine says the 12 tribes still exist, and you're not going to let the reality that they don't exist get in your way.  And, because you believe they exist, you think their existence proves my doctrine is wrong.

 

On both counts you are wrong.

Many KJV people have done considerable study into both translation matters and manuscript matters. Comparing modern versions to the KJV can be useful, but it is not the whole matter.

Secondly, I have first hand experience of conversations and been shown evidence in Israel of those who can follow the tribal history. This is legitimate, provable, evidence based fact, not your personal denial of such. (What is it with you and the whole "I'm right and you're wrong" stuff - you don't present any evidence, and have not done so as far as I can see in ANY of your posts.)

As far as biblical evidence of national Israel's existence being acknowledge by God, I am glad you asked.

It is not "my doctrine" that says national Israel still exists, it is God's.

I would like you to respond to EVERY verse and passage listed here, with the exception of those which are clearly historical record (as marked).

Here is every use of the word “Israel” that occurs in the Bible after the Resurrection of Jesus (Excluding the Gospels).

 

There are 46 verses. In each of these 46 verses the name of Israel is used by the writer UNDER THE MOVING of the HOLY GHOST. Not one of these uses is an incorrect usage of the name “Israel” (Because the Bible is perfect.)

Act_1:6  When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

The Disciples were not rebuked by Jesus for referring to national Israel.

Act_2:22  Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Act_2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The men then standing before Peter were not saved men, but were Israelites. Many of them were saved AFTER Peter finished his preaching.

 

Act_3:12  And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

Again, the men being spoken to in this passage were not saved at that time, but were Israelites.

Act_4:8  Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Act_4:10  Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

Chapter 4 was preaching before the Hebrew council, the overwhelming majority of whom were unsaved at that time. Peter twice calls them Israel, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.

Act_4:27  For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

They were praying to the Lord when they referred to national Israel specifically in this passage.

Act_5:21  And when they heard that, they entered into the temple early in the morning, and taught. But the high priest came, and they that were with him, and called the council together, and all the senate of the children of Israel, and sent to the prison to have them brought.

This is not referring to some kind of “Senate of saved people” but to the (Largely unsaved) senate of “the children of Israel” (There is that term....)

Act_5:31  Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

This one is a reference to the purpose of Jesus, and therefore being mentioned after the death and resurrection of Jesus is not relevant to this discussion.

Act_5:35  And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men.

This was a man of the council referring to “the men of Israel”, and not an Apostle, so it is not directly relevant.

Act_7:23  And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.

Act_7:37  This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.

Act_7:42  Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?

The previous 3 verses are all record of the history of Israel and therefore not relevant to this discussion.

Act_9:15  But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

This is GOD HIMSELF, speaking of the commission of Saul (Paul) to testify of God before the Gentiles and “the children of Israel” (There is that term again...) This is ABSOLUTELY speaking about unsaved people, and in this case it is the direct recording of the WORDS OF GOD HIMSELF.

Act_10:36  The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)

It could be argued that this reference is historic, but it is referring to national Israel when it uses that term (there is that term again...)

Act_13:16  Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.

Act_13:17  The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought he them out of it.

Act_13:23  Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Act_13:24  When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

This is Peter preaching to a gathering of people, and vs 16 is interesting to this discussion for it mentions “Men of Israel”... “and ye that fear God”, making a distinction between the two groups that were there present.

 

Act_21:28  Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

This was a false charge against Paul, and therefore made by an unsaved man. As a result it cannot be used in this discussion.

Act_28:20  For this cause therefore have I called for you, to see you, and to speak with you: because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.

The Hope of Israel is Jesus Christ, and therefore this verse is not relevant to this discussion.

Rom_9:4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Rom_9:6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

These two verses have already been discussed, but the intervening verses are all directly relating to national Israel.

Rom_9:27  Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

Historical reference.

Rom_9:31  But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

The use of the word “Hath” which is a present tense word brings the reference into the time of the statement, therefore showing that “Israel” had not at that time attained righteousness (salvation), but that Israel was AT THAT TIME A VALID REFERENCE to the nation.

Rom_10:1  Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Clearly, if Israel was “spiritual Israel” ONLY, then this verse makes no sense. National Israel is being referenced here.

Rom_10:19  But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Historical reference.

Rom_10:21  But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Historical reference but obviously relevant to that day also.

Rom_11:1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom_11:2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

In verse 1 Paul not only calls himself an Israelite, but then defines what he means by that, when he gives the lineage of his Physical birth. He is stating that physically he is an Israelite.

Then is vs 2 he states that He hath not cast his people away - the physical lineage is what he is talking about not spiritual...

 

Rom_11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

If this is spiritual Israel, then it is saying that not all saved people are saved. Sounds like something Calvin would say......

Rom_11:25  For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Blindness in part is happened to Israel..... does this mean that some saved people are blinded? and it mentions a timeline here - until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. Part of Israel will be blind until that time....... but after that time we have the next verse.

Rom_11:26  And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

So all Israel shall be saved when the fullness of the gentiles be come in. That is not yet.... so part of Israel (as distinct from the Gentiles by the way) is currently in blindness.

1Co_10:18  Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

“Israel after the flesh” “Eat of the sacrifices of the altar”...... Has to be National Israel, no other explanation makes sense.

2Co_3:7  But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Historical reference, but there is that term again.....

2Co_3:13  And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Historical reference, but there is that term again.....

 

2Co_11:22  Are they Hebrews? so am I. Are they Israelites? so am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so am I.

All terms which speak about national Israel, and used in such a way as to emphasise that aspect.

Gal_6:16  And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

This verse makes a distinction between the saved and “the Israel of God”, apparently asking God to give them peace and mercy.

Eph_2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Neither saved, nor citizens of the nation of Israel, and not associated with the covenants of promise (which were given to national Israel), and having no hope, and without God.

The rest of the passage makes the point that it makes no difference what nation you come from, everyone has sinned and everyone needs to be saved.

Php_3:5  Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Of the stock of Israel - obviously a reference to national Israel.

Heb_8:8  For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

House of Israel and the house of Judah - obviously national Israel (and national Judah).

Heb_8:10  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Context has not changed - national Israel.

Heb_11:22  By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.

Historical reference.

Rev_2:14  But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Historical reference.

Rev_7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Tribes mentioned - why would God mention the individual tribes if he was speaking “symbolically”? They have no spiritual reference.

Rev_21:12  And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Why would God write the names of the twelve tribes on the gates of His Holy City if He did not consider them His people?

 

There are some of these that are not relevant either because they are simply an historical record, or in two cases it is an ungodly man making the reference. These men could be misusing the reference, and so it is not reasonable to use them as evidence.

HOWEVER, every reference to national Israel that occurs after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ proves that God still considers the nation of Israel to be a legitimate nation.

If He did not, He would not record the nation as a nation in His Word.

Along with this, there is the statement of Romans 11:

Rom 11:1-2 KJV

(1)  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

(2)  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

 

Paul directly addresses this question, and no matter a person may do with the rest of the passage, Paul asks and then answers the question - emphatically God has not cast away His people which he foreknew, the physical nation which Paul references in vs 1.

 

The point here with all of these verses, is that God constantly and repeatedly throughout the New Testament and after the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ (which is when you say that Israel ceased to be a nation) refers to the nation of Israel in terms that indicate it is still a legitimate nation. Now, personally, I think God knows what He is talking about, and if He is happy to constantly and repeatedly refer to the nation of Israel, I am happy to accept that God recognises them as a legitimate nation.

Further to this, if God uses references to the tribes, or individual tribes, on several occasions in the New Testament, then I am happy to accept that God knows who makes up those tribes that He states clearly that He is going to use TWICE in the book of Revelation. The God of the Bible is able to do that.

Your god apparently cannot.

And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.

 

Edited by DaveW

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Oh yeah, and you haven't designated the "Spiritual tribe" you are part of.....

You really do have to explain what the purpose is of naming each if the twelve individual tribes. If it is symbolic (and it isn't) then what do each of the tribes symbolise?

Because if they are symbolic it makes ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE to include that section.

Explain away the tribes in Rev 7.

 

 

And you still refuse to do this board the basic good manners of properly introducing yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.

 

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6 hours ago, Shoostie said:

We live in the age of the Internet.   Your "experience and conversations" aren't good enough.  Post links that document this tribal history.

Acts 1:6 is the only New Testament passage that comes close to saying anything about restoring Israel. But, it's was a question of when Jesus was going to free the existing Jewish state from Roman occupation.  And, Jesus essentially answered it with Pentecost, a spiritual restoration of Israel, which occurred when the disciples returned to Jerusalem.  In essence, Jesus said the church was Israel.

Acts 1:6b Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel [not "restore Israel"]? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.  8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost [Pentacost]....

I can't reply to all of your verse references, but they all agree with me.

 

 

You post evidence backing up your claim.

I have been to Israel, spoken to Israelies who know their heritage, been to places that list their heritage. Not internet waffle but genuine experience.

And you won't answer any of the verses because you can't. 

God, in His perfect Word, constantly and repeatedly refers to national Israel after you say He has forsaken then.

You are wrong, and your " I'm right and you're wrong" attitude will not change that.

 

And you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section..

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3 hours ago, Shoostie said:

Backing up my claim that the tribes of Israel no longer exists. Would you like evidenced that there's not a Tyrannosaurus family living in your back yard?  It's your burden to prove that that the tribes still exist.  I knew you wouldn't provide any links because there are no links supporting your bad doctrine-based delusion that the tribes still exist.   Genuine experience?  More like genuine poppycock.  If there are places that list their heritage, it would be on the internet. 

I quoted 46 verses of evidence to back up my personal experience. 

Why would I need more?

Surely MY personal experience is AT LEAST as relevant as you unsupported opinion....

And you still haven't shown any evidence that Rev 7 is symbolic in that section, nor of which "spiritual tribe" you are a part, AND you haven't actually answered EVEN ONE verse of those I posted, the majority of which state clearly that God still considers Israel to be a legitimate nation.

I would rather follow God's opinion than yours...

 

 

And OF COURSE you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section, which is a glaring commonality with the false teachers who come to this forum to cause trouble.

Edited by DaveW

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Not that I care much because I have seen the monuments and walls with such info, but the very first link I came across was this:

To this day there are Jews who trace their descent from the ancient tribe of priests (kohanim) and levites (leviim) of the Jewish Bible and who still receive special recognition in areas such as the Jewish synagogue service.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › J...
Jewish genealogy - Wikipedia

So at least one tribe still knows, but I was led around Israel by a guy who has traced his lineage to Benjamin, and many - not all, but many Israelies can and do know their tribal heritage.

So then, personal experience, web site support, and that little matter of 46 verses showing that God doesn't agree with you.

This again is pointless, because you refuse to address the EVIDENCE placed before, but somehow think that to counter with "I'm right and you're wrong" is good enough.....

Time to move on to YET ANOTHER section that goes against your false teaching.

 

And OF COURSE you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section, which is a glaring commonality with the false teachers who come to this forum to cause trouble.

Edited by DaveW

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Next matter then.......

(And note that I am not changing because I cannot answer you, I am changing because YOU WILL NOT answer the previous points.)

Genesis 17

 7  And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

 8  And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. note

 9  And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

 10  This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

 11  And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

 12  And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. note

 13  He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

 14  And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

 

God made an EVERLASTING COVENANT that the lan would be an EVERLASTING POSESSION.

I hope the everlasting life that God promises is not like your idea of an everlasting covenant - one that can be broken and is therefore not actually everlasting.

I hope everlasting life is JUST LIKE God's everlasting promises - IT LASTS FOREVER.....

So then - if it was given as an everlasting covenant then the people MUST still exist or it has failed and WAS NEVER everlasting in the first place.

Explain how it is that your position makes God  liar, but you still think you are right and....... God is wrong?!?!?!?!

 

And OF COURSE you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section, which is a glaring commonality with the false teachers who come to this forum to cause trouble.

Edited by DaveW

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   God certainly isn't through with LITERAL Israel. All the tribes still DO exist, although none outside the Jews know they're Israelis at all. But GOD knows! HE will reveal to them who they are when His time comes.

 

  In Ezekiel, Israel & Judah are called Aholah(Samaria) & Aholibah(Jerusalem). And Aholibah was to receive the greater punishment because she saw Aholah punished with exile by the Assyrians, but went on to exceed Aholah in sin. And the history of the Jews proves they are indeed the actual physical Jews. No other distinct people have borne the hatred & persecution for centuries, as the Jews have, but yet remained a distinct people & kept their national identity. Only GOD could accomplish that!

 

  But God will keep the promises He made to Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob concerning their posterity. (And to David as well.)

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And yet it DOES SAY that they can follow back to them - This disproved your assertion. And it was only the first that was listed on my search.

You are the one making the false claim, so you need to prove it, not me.

I have shown verse after verse after verse after verse that proves you are wrong.

THAT is reliable testimony.

I have seen the lists on the walls and seen the monuments standing, and spoken with people who follow their lineage to Benjamin specifically, and I don't remember the others.

But even that is nothing compared to the verse after verse that shows you are wrong.

In response to the verses I listed you simply said they "all agree with me" and refused to respond to EVEN ONE OF THEM. You sidestepped one single verse and answered something irrelevant instead.

Your ENTIRE argument process appears to consist of "I'm right and you're wrong" and you present no evidence but accuse everyone else of having no proof.

You are a troublemaker, and are only here to cause division - but as you will have noticed, as indicated by the number of likes my posts have, you are not causing division among us.

You sir are a wolf, with the single intent of deceiving, and overthrowing the faith of some.

You will fail on this forum.

And this is precisely why you refuse to give this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself - this is what every false teacher has done when they come to this board, and this one action designates you as a false teacher.

 

How about then you answer the point about Genesis 17?

I know you can't but I want to see you squirm as you try.

And of course you still refuse to introduce yourself, which is just plain basic good manners and well known forum etiquette- but you care nothing for any of that because good manners is not a part of causing dissention, which is you intent.

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And I noted from the article that "at least one" could follow it back - thank you for confirming that and adding that the number according to that article is actually two.

 Not bad for a nation that you claim doesn't exist at all - you have confirmed that at least 2/12's of that nation still exist, which is enough to prove you are wrong.

If they still exist, the the others also do, and the God I believe in is certainly able to keep track of who is who, and call out 12000 from each tribe, even if He has to identify each and every individual.

The god that you follow is a liar, and is not powerful enough to know who is who.....

I will continue to follow the God of the Bible rather than your weak, counterfeit, lying god.

 

 

And you still refuse to do this board the basic courtesy of a proper introduction in the intro section.

Edited by DaveW

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      *Paul describes the nation of Israel as his brothers "according to the flesh". Rom 9:3. The church are not Paul's brothers according to the flesh, church members are made family by adoption through the Holy Spirit, not by promise of covenants with Israel. Rom 8:23. Thus Paul sets the entire tone of Romans chs 9-11 by identifying his discourse about Israel as being his physical lineage, not about promises given to the church by transference.
      *The other view often cite Luke 13 where Jesus cursed the fig tree as evidence that Israel will never be restored. However, Rom 11:15clearly shows that God will raise Israel as a nation "from the dead". Therefore Luke 13 can only be temporary as is confirmed by Paul in Romans 11:25.
      *Paul repeatedly makes distinctions between the Jews and Greeks (gentiles) throughout Scripture (Rom 1:16, Acts 28:29 which you will only find in a KJV). In Rom 11:13, Paul confirms that he is the apostle to the Gentiles and makes the distinction between his office over the Gentiles, and those who are of his flesh (v 14).
      *Revelation 7:4-8 clearly shows that during the tribulation, 144,000 Jews will be sealed. If those who profess that the church replaced Israel, then let me ask to which of the twelve tribes listed in Rev 7:5-8 do you belong to?
      *It is obvious from Daniel 9:25-27, 2 Thess 2:1-12, and Rev 11:1-2 that there will be temple rites practiced again during the tribulation, such as would not be practiced by the church. Furthermore, saints saved during the tribulation are said to "sing the song of Moses and of the Lamb". The church would not be singing the song of Moses, that is a clear indication that there will be literal, physical blood-line Jews present during the tribulation that are saved in accordance to God's promises to them in the OT and Paul's statement in Romans 11:26.
      * I mentioned this early but worth saying again. In Rev 2:2, 2:9, and 3:9, Jesus praises the Jewish churches for identify false Jews. First thing to note, is that in order to identifying a false Jew, there needs to be a true Jew as a standard of comparison. Secondly, there is nowhere in the epistles to the church where a Gentile believer is admonished to "try them which say they are Jews and are not". During the dispensation of grace, there is neither "Jew nor Greek" (Gal 3:27-28), but in Revelation 2-3, the emphasis is back on the Jew.
      Another thing to note about Romans 11:26 where Paul says "all Israel will be saved", if that was a reference to the church, would that not be redundant? The church is sealed right now (Eph 4:30, 1:13), there is no possible loss of that salvation so why would Paul make a reference to a future salvation of the church? That makes it obvious that Paul is referring to a future salvation of Israel as a nation, and not to a future salvation that is made up of Gentile believers.
      *If the church replaced Israel, why would Paul bother writing an entire book to HEBREWS, and James write a book "to the twelve tribes scattered abroad"?
       
      The church is under a completely different calling and set of prescriptions than the nation of Israel, and the confusion over Bible prophecy is the failure to understand the difference between the two. The church is a "mystery" not previously known, Eph 3:1-12, Col  1:26-27. Jesus said, "on this rock I will build my church", thus the church can not be Israel because the church is in a building process build separate from the nation of Israel which will culminate when the voice John hears that speaks as a trumpet (and notice this trumpet sounds before the 7 trumpets begin) tells the church to come up hither. Rev 4:1.
       
      Additional Signs That Validate The Current State of Israel
       
      The following are numerous signs that have occurred in Israel that show that God is fulfilling prophecy in the CURRENT land of Israel.
       
      *A PURE LANGUAGE: "I will restore until the peoples a pure language" Zeph 3:9. For nearly 2000 years, Israel has been scattered through out the earth, yet in the last 50 years, they have revived the Hebrew language spoken as it was 2000 years ago.
       
      *ISRAEL BECAME A NATION IN A DAY: Despite the reneging by Churchill on the Balfour Declaration that chopped up the land of Israel, and the opposition of their enemies, in ONE DAY Israel became a nation in fulfillment of Isaiah 66:8. Not only that, but when they were regathered, the ORDER that they would be gathered in was predicted. Isa 43:5-6, and 21.
       
      *LAND DIVIDED FOR GAIN. Winston Churchill and the UN and the Pope refused to allow the Jews all of the land that they claimed as part of their heritage with the borders listed in Deut and Joshua, and divided the land for gain. Joel 3:1-2. 
       
      *ISRAEL BECOMES CENTER OF WORLD CONTENTION: Israel is said to be a stumbling block to all the nations and there can be no question today that all of the conflicts in the middle east revolve around the nation of Israel. Zech 12:3
       
      *THE SHEKEL REVIVED: For 2000 years Israel had not national currency, and now that they have been regathered and restored as a nation, they have revived the currency of the shekel as predicted in Ezek 45:12-16.
       
      *ISRAEL BARREN LAND BECOMES PRODUCTIVE AGAIN: For 2000 years that land of Israel was barren, dessert, even under the occupation of Turks, and other Arabs and the Ottoman empire, there was never any agriculture in the land,and no forestation, but now Israel produces more fruit (particularly the grapes) to rival the largest producers in the world. Isaiah 26:6, Isaiah 35:1-2.
       
      There are scores of other prophecies that I could list here, but these demonstrate clearly that the CURRENT land of Israel not only fulfilled prophecy in it's regathering, but is CONTINUING to fulfill prophecy, and will be the center of prophecy during the coming great tribulation.
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