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What does 'Israel' mean in the Old Testament and in the New?


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Greetings, all,

Hope you are all doing great and the Lord is smiling and offering you all His kind Grace and blessings.

Studying the Good Book, questions rise after questions, i hope it's a good thing.

Reading the Old testament, we come across the word 'Israel' when God tells Jacob:

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Genesis 32: 28:

And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

 

i believe this is the first mention of that name, and then it has been mentioned multiple times on and on, especially through the book of Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Hoshua, Judges, Ruth, I Samuel, II Samuel, I Kings, II Kings, I Chronicles, II Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, a good number of Psalms, starting with Psalm 14 and ending with Psalm 149, Proverbs 1, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Micah, Nahum, Zephaniah, Zechariah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Phiippians, Hebrews, and finally in Revelation 21: 12.

if i am not wrong, this word: 'Israel' has been mentioned about 2714 times!

i understand that most of the time this word is refered to as the people, or the land, or children of Jacob and suchlike, but what about the first time it was mentioned? and what about the time when it is mentioned in the New Testament? For instance:

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Glatians 6: 16:

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

 

Or better still:

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Romans 11: 26:

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written . . .

 

Surely here 'Israel' does not only refer to the Jews or the children of Jacob, and is different, or at least i humbly believe so, but being a nurd, i'd like to make sure.

 

Thanks a lot for your time and kindness.

 

Bless your hearts,

Totoo

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Romans 11:26 does refer to the Jews, the 12 tribes that are still alive and remain after a certain point in the tribulation period. The Lord is going to lead them in the wilderness and purge out the rebels. Those who are left - ie. all (remaining) Israel will be saved.

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Hi!

You've broached a very broad topic that isn't easily answered.

As to your last question regarding Romans 11:26...

My understanding; is that, in light of the book of Zechariah, it does indeed mean that all Israel (those Israelis) who survive until the end of the great tribulation period...shall be saved.

Take care!

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Israel means "God's Prince" which meant that God gave him power and authority and protection, both in heaven and in Earth, to rule over God's nation of Covenanted people. When Jacob ruled in faith the Bible would call him Israel but when he was fearful or in doubt of God's promises and protection he would be called Jacob in the Bible. Many times His name would alternate from Jacob to Israel in joining chapters. The "Nation of Israel" is more properly called "the Children of Israel" and is in reference to all of those who exited Egypt with Moses (including the mixed multitude that did not come physically from Jacob) and partook of the Israelite Covenant at Mount Sinai. Often when God promises to do something for the the nation of Israel, even when they do not have faith in His promises, then He will refer to the nation as Jacob. The "Israel of God" is in reference to those in the covenant of Israel and are also believers in Christ. The "Israel of God" does not include all believers but only the believers who are also in the "covenant of Israel". Those who do not believe in Christ but were born in the covenant of Israel will be "cut off in Righteousness" when Christ returns to set up the Kingdom of Heaven on Earth. I can give a verse study later that shows these things, when I have more time. 

Edited by John Young
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Dear John,

As always, many thanks and your kind reply is much appreciated.

Makes much sense now, and you already replied my next question about the shift between Israel and Jacob, thanks for that, too.

i eagerly await your follow up discussion, it is a tough topic to digest and i cannot have enough help, cheers and bless your heart.

Totoo

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My humble opinion...

Israel ultimately represents the Glorified Body. More specifically, the Spiritual Genetics of the Glorified Body.

I'm referring to verses like this...

Romans 11:24

"For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"

The Saved are grafted in.

Another way to look at it is that the Saved become Abraham's Seed...

Galatians 3:29

"And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise"

How is that possible? We must be Born Again.

Edited by MJW
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"Israel" refers to the 12 tribes descended from the patriarch Jacob whose name God changed to "Israel". These 12 tribes were one nation til God split them into Israel & Judah.

 When Scripture mentions "Jacob" or "Israel" after Jacob died, it's referring to the whole nation collectively. When Scripture says "Judah" or "Jew/Jews", it's referring only to the descendants of Judah, Benjamin, & Levi. Feel free to carefully check this out.

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Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

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Yes, I am one of the chosen in Christ because I have trusted in His finished work upon the cross of Calvary. Have you? Maybe you haven’t and that is the reason you cannot understand any of the Bible.

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Thanks - but most or all here are very sad for you if you cannot say the same. You are either saved or lost, going to Heaven or to Hell, in Christ or damned for all eternity. Of course, a lost person can repent of their sins and trust the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation thereby changing their condition. Hopefully you have done so or will do so soon - asking endless questions won’t get you to Heaven - trusting in Jesus Christ alone to save you from your sins will.

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  I believe when Scripture says "Israel' or "Jacob" & isn't referring to the man, it means the whole nation or people of Israel. When it says "Judah" or Jew, again when not referrint o the man, it means the Jews only, that is, the people of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, ot Levi.

  The other Israelis are not Jews, but all Jews are Israelis. While we don't know who the other Israelis are today, GOD knows, & He will make their true ID known when His time comes.

  Nowhere does Scripture read "a Jew from the tribe of Asher", etc. so the Jews are wrong to claim all Israelis are Jews.

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Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

So are the non-Judah Israelies not included anywhere in this?

Once again we find that the Bible disagrees with your spoutings.

 

 

 

 

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But the Bible makes a difference between spiritual Israel and physical Israel.

Often people who use your phrasing are doing so to indicate that God has forsaken Israel and replaced them with Christianty.

What is your position on this?

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Okay, but that doesn't really answer the question.

What is your position on the nation of Israel in God's future plan?

Are you of the opinion that the nation of Israel has been forsaken in favour of "Spiritual Israel", and therefore God will have nothing further to do with the nation of Israel?

 

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3 hours ago, Shoostie said:

"...what is the "Israel" that not all Israel is part of, which is most relevant to this topic." The Israel "not of faith is cut off" but they are not cut off of Israel. They are cut off from the promise. Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. ...30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained [grafted in] to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained [cut out/off] to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
 

"In Romans 11, to what are gentiles grafted where the natural branches have been cut off?" Psalm 80:14-19 Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine; 15 and the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch that thou madest strong for thyself. 16 It is burned with fire, it is cut down: they perish at the rebuke of thy countenance. 17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. 18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name. 19 Turn us again, O Lord God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved. "If you can say Israel, you'll be right." Actually you would be wrong as the olive tree is Christ and his body. 12:5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. "Also, in Romans 11, "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in", what is it that  Gentiles are coming into, if not the just expressed Israel?" They are being called into Christ.

"Ephesians 2 says, "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel".  If before Christ gentiles were aliens of Israel, what are they in Christ?  Paul goes on to answer, "fellow citizens" in the household of God, which is?" The household of God is not Israel the Nation but rather the Spiritual house/tabernacle of David. (2 Samuel 7, Psalm 89, Acts 15:13-18, Amos 9:11-12) We Gentile and Israel are one Body in the house hold of God by the body of Christ, by virtue of believers being graphed in to him and and the unbelievers being cut out. Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:...2 Samuel 7:12-14 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

"Paul tells the Galatians Christians are the children of Abraham and Sarah, and that unbelieving ethnic Jews are not the children of Abraham and Sarah, and therefor are not the children of Jacob/Israel.  And, if Christians are the children of Abraham and Sarah through Christ, whom also is the seed of Israel, then Christians are Israel." In Galatians Paul is using Abraham's wives to illustrate the two covenants that bind people to the household of God. One of service and after the flesh (Israel's covenant) and one of son ship (Christ's covenant). At death, those only in the first, (Israelite after the flesh only), are cast out of God's house but the sons after the Spirit abides forever. The Galatians were sons only and not Israelites, yet desired to become bondservants after the flesh by following after the covenant of Israel. It was not about thier ethnicity but their covenants. Believing Israelite were in both covenants first by their flesh and second by their faith. In fact Paul was admonishing them NOT to become "spiritual" Israelites! They had liberty by remaining Spiritual gentiles. Acts 21:19-26 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.  20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

 

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1 hour ago, Shoostie said:

"The Olive Tree in Romans 11 is the Promise?  ... Didn't you just equate the Promise with the Olive Tree?  Now you say Jesus?  Jesus has no children, and therefor no natural branches.Christ is the mediator of the Promises and is the promised seed of Abraham and David that was to build the Spiritual house and city of God. John 15:3-6 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned....Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his....1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in  him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

"You say the Galatians are sons only, but not Israelites?  Sons of what?" Sons of God. Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus...Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.... Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

"2 Samuel 7 verse 5 looks like it says David's house is the house of Israel, which is Israel." No where does it say his house is equal to Israel. In fact his Spiritual house is equivalent to New Jerusalem and Not Israel. John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.... Psalm 87:2-62 The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob. 3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah. 4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there. 5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. 6 The Lord shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah....1 Peter 2:4-6 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded....Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city....Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

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Romans 9

3  For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

 4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

 5  Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

Why would the Apostle Paul, under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, refer to his kinsmen according to the flesh as Israelites, if God was now done with national Israel and had replaced them?

Yet Paul very specifically denote his kinsmen according to the flesh as "Israelites".

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33 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

You couldn't quote just one more verse, which answers your question?  I have already spoken about that verse in this thread.

I didn't need to quote just one more verse, because it doesn't do what you suggest.

The plain fact is that God, through the Apostle Paul, refers to the nation of Israel as Israel AFTER your appointed time of Him so called rejecting them.

God still consider national Israel to be Israel, REGARDLESS of the next verse.

I am not by the way rejecting the rest of the passage, just pointing out that the next verse and continuing do NOT nullify the point of verses 3 - 5.

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Oh yeah, you still haven't done the basic thing of good manners and introduced yourself in the intro section.

I don't think I have ever joined a forum that didn't have an introduction section, and it was simply expected as part of decent forum etiquette that any new member posted a formal introduction post. In some fora I have been a part of you could not post anywhere except the intro section until after you had posted an intro post.

This is the only place I can remember where so many people not only don't automatically post an intro, but actually refuse to do so when asked.

In the overwhelming majority of cases where people refuse to post an intro, it turns out that they are only here to cause trouble. Just an observation.....

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20 hours ago, Shoostie said:

How does that answer anything I've said?  I asked how a promise, or Jesus, can have natural branches, when they don't have children.  They don't have natural branches, therefor they aren't the Olive Tree in Romans 11.  The Olive Tree is Israel.

How can you even say no where does it say his house is equal to Israel?  David is of Israel, therefor his house is of Israel. 

David is physically part of Israel after the flesh but we are not talking about a physical Olive Tree with physical branches or the physical people after the flesh. We are  talking about the Spiritual Olive Tree  that is in the House of God, which is Christ. Because David trust in Christ He is in the Spiritual Tree. He is not in the tree by mere fact of being of Israel but by faith which is the oil that flows from the Olive Tree of God.

Psalm 52 To the chief Musician, Maschil, A Psalm of David, when Doeg the Edomite came and told Saul, and said unto him, David is come to the house of Ahimelech. 1 Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth  continually. 2 Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully. 3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah. 4 Thou lovest all devouring words, O thou deceitful tongue. 5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah. 6 The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him: 7 lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness. 8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever. 9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

The Natural Branches are those that were born into the physical covenant nation of God to whom "were committed the oracles of God" they had the most opportunity to believe before being cut off by sin, unlike the Non covenanted nations who were "wild" by NATURE. 

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14 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

David is the olive tree, Jesus is the olive tree, and the Promise is the Olive tree, have all apparently been floated as the Romans 11 Olive Tree in, in this thread.  Two of those have no natural branches.  Who are the natural branches of David?  Jesus was one.  But, really, you want to limit the Olive Tree in Romans 11 to just the descendants of David and graphed-on Christians?  The Olive Tree in Romans 11 isn't David, and even if it is David, he's part of Israel, and so Christians are still Israel.  

No, we're not talking about an olive tree with physical branches.  I'm talking about an olive tree that represents Israel and the branches are the natural children of Jacob.  And, Christians are graphed onto that tree and the natural branches without faith are cut off.  I don't know what you're talking about.

In the garden of God there were two main trees, The Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 3). In Israel's Temple for God, (The physical house Solomon built for God) there were two cherubs in the oracle room made of Olive Trees and overlaid in Gold along with two doors made of olive trees (1 Kings 6:23, 32). Zechariah was shown these two trees conveyed oil into the Seven Lamps of God (the seven spirits of the churches) that lighted and guided the churches of God (Zechariah 4, Revelation 1:20). In regards to mankind these two trees/testaments are mediated by two shepherds/ anointed ones/ Moses and Elijah, one representing Law/flesh (Bands) and the other representing Grace/spirit (beauty). In regards to Israel, their churches/synagogues were to be guided and fed with oil from from both trees but their shepherds stopped up the flow so God said he would break both "staffs". Bands which was for Israel and Beauty which was for all people. Beauty was paid for instead of broken and it was sacrificed on the cross and Israel the nation was disbanded. It goes on to say that Israel's shepherds would go on using broken Bands but would be blinded to Beauty and therefor would not see Christ (THE BRANCH, Zechariah 3:8, 6:12) coming to them from that olive tree of Life (Zechariah 11). This Leading up to the tree in Romans 11 shows the Olive Tree they were cut off from was the tree of Life that is in the garden of God and from Christ and faith in him even though they still trusted in Bands (which was broken).

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

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13 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

Verse six, which you didn't quote, nullifies your position. Yes, the Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory... but the adoption, glory, etc does not apply to all of Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh, because not all Israel (the flesh) is Israel (of God).  And, then Paul goes on to belabor that point.  

 

Oh you mean this verse 6:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

You mean this verse where God makes a distinction between physical Israel, STILL CALLING THEM ISRAEL.

Why would God refer to them as Israel, if He no longer considered them to be Israel?

So this verse, like the previous ones I mentioned, STILL POSE THE PROBLEM for you that God Himself continues to make the distinction and refer to national Israel as Israel.

Now are you seriously suggesting that the covenants etc are not regarding national Israel, "of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came"...?

4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 

 5  Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

You need to understand context, because vs 3, vs 4, and vs 5 are all referring to national Israel.

Paul designates it in vs 3, and national Israel is ABSOLUTELY still the subject and the people through whom Christ came. 

You cannot change the context at a whim.

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4 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

Next time you post, I expect you to claim something else is the Olive Tree in Romans 11.  So far in this thread, instead of the correct answer of Israel, we have the Promise itself, Jesus, David, and now the Tree of Life have all been offered as the Olive Tree in Romans 11.  

Who are the natural branches of the Tree of Life? 

As I stated before...In regard to the context of Romans 11....

4 hours ago, John Young said:

The Natural Branches are those that were born into the physical covenant nation of God to whom "were committed the oracles of God" they had the most opportunity to believe before being cut off by sin, unlike the Non covenanted nations who were "wild" by NATURE. 

The Wild Branches in the context of Romans 11 are those who in spite of being born in other nations that had no covenant of service with God (Bands), going their own ways, and therefor no oil flowing to them, they heard the words of Life and were graphed in to the Tree Of Life (Beauty).

In Paul's day only the Jews were teaching the precepts of God and were therefor the natural Branches that led to the tree of life. Today the natural branches are those born to Godly Families of all nations that attend Godly churches that "flow the oil" by teaching Christ. These are the churches that are lead by the seven angels to which flow the light of Christ. They were present in the synagogues of the Jews and they are present today in the churches of Christ.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

1 Corinthians 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Zechariah 4:2-3 and said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold [the churches synagogues], with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof: 3 and two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.....11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side  thereof? 12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches [bands and beauty, Moses and Elijah, law and grace,] which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves? 13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord. 14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.

Revelation 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength....20 the mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches....Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent....Revelation 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.

Zechariah 11:17 Woe to the idol shepherd that leaveth the flock! the sword shall be upon his arm, and upon his right eye: his arm shall be clean dried up, and his right eye shall be utterly darkened.

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On 9/13/2019 at 2:50 PM, Shoostie said:

There no longer is a nation of Israel. Once Jesus came, ethnic Israel no longer served a function.

According to the Romans 9: 3-5 AND 6 God disagrees with you.

If you were right, and there was no longer a nation of Israel after Jesus Came, then WHY does God refer to national Israel as Israel?

It really is not that hard to understand.

And you still haven't introduced yourself in the intro section...….

That also is not hard to do, nor is it hard to understand why you should do it.

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23 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

 

You're arguing against your false caricature of the doctrines of others.  No one said God no longer considers anyone to be Israel.   The unbelieving Isrealites were never the Israel of God and the believing Israelites are eternally the Israel of God.  You've been studiously ignoring the argument that has been presented to you, that there are two Israels one of the flesh and one of the Promise.   

Not all Israel is Israel.  

You define Israel as ethnic Israel, and then read that into scripture everywhere, even though Paul is clear there are two Israels.  And, Paul is clear that Christians are part of Israel.  

 

 

 

This is a blatant and total misrepresentation of what I have said.

Clearly Paul sees national Israel -his brethren according to the flesh, as legitimately Israel - he names them as such.

National Israel is Biblically referred to as Israel twice in this passage.

I have nowhere said that every reference to israel is "ethnic Israel"  ( in fact I have not used that term at all).

But plainly God refers to national Israel as Israel after your designated timing.

You are not only twisting my words, you are also twisting Scripture.

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Let’s make this really simple so you can follow it.

 

Rom 9:3-8

(3)  For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

 

(4)  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

(5)  Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(6)  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

(7)  Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

(8)  That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

 

His kinsmen according to the flesh can only be national Israel. No other option is possible.

And to emphasise that fact, the Nation was adopted by God (Abraham was called from another nation), the Glory of God was revealed to the nation of Israel (To Moses, then to the nation by the plagues, deliverance from Egypt, Protection and provision in the wilderness), the Covenants were given to the Nation of Israel (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, then to the Nation as the covenant of the Law), the Nation was the ONLY NATION called to serve the Lord specifically, with Laws, rules, regulations, and commands on how to do so, and the only nation to which the promises of God were given.

Then verse 5 speaks of the fathers of that nation, and that nation of whom “concerning the flesh Christ came”……. All of this is fulfilled in the Nation of Israel.

Everything in verses 4 and 5 is clearly referring to the history of the nation of Israel

And THEN there is the point that not all Israel is of Israel. I HAVE NEVER DENIED THAT.

But if you notice, the division is then very quickly turned to refer to some of them as the children of God – this is the division WITHIN THE NATION, that there are those who are the children of the flesh (unsaved) and those who are the children of God (Saved), but the subject is ISRAEL.

The point that Paul is making is that being an Israelite never saved anyone...….

The division is saved Israelites and unsaved Israelites.

 

And to make this ABSOLUTELY PLAIN  you said:

There no longer is a nation of Israel. Once Jesus came, ethnic Israel no longer served a function. Isaiah 65:8-9 tells us why God held off on destroying Judea, when he destroyed Israel after declaring He was not their God and they were not His people, Hosea 1:9.

The nation of Israel is an impostor.  You can call a weed a rose, it doesn't make it so.    That weed is particularly noxious, very much the opposite of a rose.”

 

 

You clearly said “There no longer is a nation of Israel…..

And yet Paul refers to national Israel twice in the very verses you are trying to twist.

How do you reconcile your statement that “There no longer is a nation of Israel” when God clearly refers to national Israel in this very passage?

 

 

 

And you still have not done this board the basic common courtesy of introducing yourself in the intro section.

 

Edited by DaveW
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So in other words you don't like what Paul wrote under the inspiration of God and so you choose to ignore it.

No point in continuing this, as you obviously are only here to push false doctrine.

And you still refuse to properly introduce yourself, which is the standard modus operandi of false teachers who come here.

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