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What does 'Israel' mean in the Old Testament and in the New?


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Not that I care much because I have seen the monuments and walls with such info, but the very first link I came across was this:

To this day there are Jews who trace their descent from the ancient tribe of priests (kohanim) and levites (leviim) of the Jewish Bible and who still receive special recognition in areas such as the Jewish synagogue service.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki › J...
Jewish genealogy - Wikipedia

So at least one tribe still knows, but I was led around Israel by a guy who has traced his lineage to Benjamin, and many - not all, but many Israelies can and do know their tribal heritage.

So then, personal experience, web site support, and that little matter of 46 verses showing that God doesn't agree with you.

This again is pointless, because you refuse to address the EVIDENCE placed before, but somehow think that to counter with "I'm right and you're wrong" is good enough.....

Time to move on to YET ANOTHER section that goes against your false teaching.

 

And OF COURSE you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section, which is a glaring commonality with the false teachers who come to this forum to cause trouble.

Edited by DaveW
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Next matter then.......

(And note that I am not changing because I cannot answer you, I am changing because YOU WILL NOT answer the previous points.)

Genesis 17

 7  And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

 8  And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. note

 9  And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

 10  This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

 11  And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

 12  And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. note

 13  He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

 14  And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

 

God made an EVERLASTING COVENANT that the lan would be an EVERLASTING POSESSION.

I hope the everlasting life that God promises is not like your idea of an everlasting covenant - one that can be broken and is therefore not actually everlasting.

I hope everlasting life is JUST LIKE God's everlasting promises - IT LASTS FOREVER.....

So then - if it was given as an everlasting covenant then the people MUST still exist or it has failed and WAS NEVER everlasting in the first place.

Explain how it is that your position makes God  liar, but you still think you are right and....... God is wrong?!?!?!?!

 

And OF COURSE you still have not done this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself in the intro section, which is a glaring commonality with the false teachers who come to this forum to cause trouble.

Edited by DaveW
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   God certainly isn't through with LITERAL Israel. All the tribes still DO exist, although none outside the Jews know they're Israelis at all. But GOD knows! HE will reveal to them who they are when His time comes.

 

  In Ezekiel, Israel & Judah are called Aholah(Samaria) & Aholibah(Jerusalem). And Aholibah was to receive the greater punishment because she saw Aholah punished with exile by the Assyrians, but went on to exceed Aholah in sin. And the history of the Jews proves they are indeed the actual physical Jews. No other distinct people have borne the hatred & persecution for centuries, as the Jews have, but yet remained a distinct people & kept their national identity. Only GOD could accomplish that!

 

  But God will keep the promises He made to Abraham, Isaac, & Jacob concerning their posterity. (And to David as well.)

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And yet it DOES SAY that they can follow back to them - This disproved your assertion. And it was only the first that was listed on my search.

You are the one making the false claim, so you need to prove it, not me.

I have shown verse after verse after verse after verse that proves you are wrong.

THAT is reliable testimony.

I have seen the lists on the walls and seen the monuments standing, and spoken with people who follow their lineage to Benjamin specifically, and I don't remember the others.

But even that is nothing compared to the verse after verse that shows you are wrong.

In response to the verses I listed you simply said they "all agree with me" and refused to respond to EVEN ONE OF THEM. You sidestepped one single verse and answered something irrelevant instead.

Your ENTIRE argument process appears to consist of "I'm right and you're wrong" and you present no evidence but accuse everyone else of having no proof.

You are a troublemaker, and are only here to cause division - but as you will have noticed, as indicated by the number of likes my posts have, you are not causing division among us.

You sir are a wolf, with the single intent of deceiving, and overthrowing the faith of some.

You will fail on this forum.

And this is precisely why you refuse to give this board the basic courtesy of properly introducing yourself - this is what every false teacher has done when they come to this board, and this one action designates you as a false teacher.

 

How about then you answer the point about Genesis 17?

I know you can't but I want to see you squirm as you try.

And of course you still refuse to introduce yourself, which is just plain basic good manners and well known forum etiquette- but you care nothing for any of that because good manners is not a part of causing dissention, which is you intent.

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And I noted from the article that "at least one" could follow it back - thank you for confirming that and adding that the number according to that article is actually two.

 Not bad for a nation that you claim doesn't exist at all - you have confirmed that at least 2/12's of that nation still exist, which is enough to prove you are wrong.

If they still exist, the the others also do, and the God I believe in is certainly able to keep track of who is who, and call out 12000 from each tribe, even if He has to identify each and every individual.

The god that you follow is a liar, and is not powerful enough to know who is who.....

I will continue to follow the God of the Bible rather than your weak, counterfeit, lying god.

 

 

And you still refuse to do this board the basic courtesy of a proper introduction in the intro section.

Edited by DaveW
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6 hours ago, Shoostie said:

It doesn't say you can follow them back.  It says some Jewish families have traditions (like Senator Warren's native American ancestry), which  is far short of your claim.  The article can't even provide one example of any genealogy that can be followed back to Israel. The best genealogy it has, it says was broken in the 1500s, and there's no verification of its credibility, even if it wasn't broken.   The facts don't support your doctrines. 

God made an everlasting covenant, but a covenant is a two-way agreement, which the Jews broke when they rejected Christ, and earlier when they worshiped pagan gods.  If the Jews could not break the covenant, why did God say Israel is not his people and he is not their God?   You won't see my squirm, but I'll see you squirm.

 

 

 

 

Once again you fail to read the Bible. In the first place, not all covenants are two way agreements. See Genesis 15.

Secondly the passage I quoted gives the entirety of this particular covenant and the condition for the Israelites is given in verse 14, and it applies to INDIVIDUALS, not the nation.

Read it. Read it carefully.

You are wrong.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Shoostie said:

You xxxxxxxxxx, he has said it far more than twice.  Maybe just twice in this thread.

I repeated it because you refused to do so. I stopped as soon as I was asked.

I would have stopped the moment you gave this board the proper respect of an intro.

Your foul descriptions however should not pass the keyboard of a Christian.

Edited by DaveW
Edited to remove the offending reference.
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I actually think it is a bit of a pity this ended up like this.

I genuinely want such people to properly answer the points put to them. It helps me to understand the arguments.

Of course this guy was not properly responding in any case, but it is still a pity he decided to force the mods to act.

Thanks to the mods for acting appropriately and quickly by the way.

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On 9/16/2019 at 9:23 PM, John Young said:

Ezekiel 9, 47, 48 

  Actually, they DO; they just don't know their tribal or national identity now, except for the Jews. Remember. God said the coming 144K special witnesses would include 12K from each tribe. GOD knows who they are today.

  I readily admit they're likely mixed with other peoples, same as many Jews are, but if their genealogy could be traced to ancient times, they'd be from old Israel.

  And yes, there's SPIRITUAL  Israel, which can include anyone, racial Israeli or not. It consists of all Christians of all peoples. And it's separate from physical Israel.  God has plans for both physical and spiritual Israel, as He's made plain in Scripture.

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Ezekiel shows us that the 144,000 are sealed in Jerusalem at the abomination of desolation and that tribal affiliation will be based on what district of Israel they are living in. So not symbolic but literal people living in a literal Israel, in the actual land, sealed by a literal Angel (Ezekiel 9). Additionally Israel is a covenant relationship, not a racial, genetic, or cultural. The only saved Israelites will be part of the "Spiritual Israel". The false Jew will be cut off from the nation and those gentile believers who wish to enter the Israeli covenant must enter by the terms of that covenant, not by mere virtue of believing on Christ alone but must also be circumcised and keep the Passover every year, etc or be cut off from it. (Exodus 12:47-49, Numbers 19:13).

Edited by John Young
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  No, a Christian is NOT required to follow the "Mosaic" law. remember, Scripture says that if one seex justification by keeping the law, one must keep every jot & tittle of it without fail, which no one but Jesus has ever done.

  There's no separate salvations for Israeli & gentile. There's but ONE way for all. And that's thru JESUS.  There are many Scriptures which make that clear. Here's an example:

 

Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

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The Law and the National covenant of Israel was never about giving salvation but about teaching us Sanctification and creating an environment in which it would be harder for sin to take root. Within the Law and the national covenant, sin's evil and destructive influence would be greatly reduced and Holy and helpful influences would increase. Within  that environment the goal was preservation of righteousness on earth and the lifting up of and drawing of men to the light of Christ.

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Edited by John Young
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