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What does 'Israel' mean in the Old Testament and in the New?


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  I believe when Scripture says "Israel' or "Jacob" & isn't referring to the man, it means the whole nation or people of Israel. When it says "Judah" or Jew, again when not referrint o the man, it means the Jews only, that is, the people of the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, ot Levi.

  The other Israelis are not Jews, but all Jews are Israelis. While we don't know who the other Israelis are today, GOD knows, & He will make their true ID known when His time comes.

  Nowhere does Scripture read "a Jew from the tribe of Asher", etc. so the Jews are wrong to claim all Israelis are Jews.

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Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

So are the non-Judah Israelies not included anywhere in this?

Once again we find that the Bible disagrees with your spoutings.

 

 

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...
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Okay, but that doesn't really answer the question.

What is your position on the nation of Israel in God's future plan?

Are you of the opinion that the nation of Israel has been forsaken in favour of "Spiritual Israel", and therefore God will have nothing further to do with the nation of Israel?

 

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3 hours ago, Shoostie said:

"...what is the "Israel" that not all Israel is part of, which is most relevant to this topic." The Israel "not of faith is cut off" but they are not cut off of Israel. They are cut off from the promise. Romans 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. ...30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained [grafted in] to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained [cut out/off] to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33 as it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
 

"In Romans 11, to what are gentiles grafted where the natural branches have been cut off?" Psalm 80:14-19 Return, we beseech thee, O God of hosts: look down from heaven, and behold, and visit this vine; 15 and the vineyard which thy right hand hath planted, and the branch that thou madest strong for thyself. 16 It is burned with fire, it is cut down: they perish at the rebuke of thy countenance. 17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself. 18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name. 19 Turn us again, O Lord God of hosts, cause thy face to shine; and we shall be saved. "If you can say Israel, you'll be right." Actually you would be wrong as the olive tree is Christ and his body. 12:5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. "Also, in Romans 11, "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in", what is it that  Gentiles are coming into, if not the just expressed Israel?" They are being called into Christ.

"Ephesians 2 says, "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel".  If before Christ gentiles were aliens of Israel, what are they in Christ?  Paul goes on to answer, "fellow citizens" in the household of God, which is?" The household of God is not Israel the Nation but rather the Spiritual house/tabernacle of David. (2 Samuel 7, Psalm 89, Acts 15:13-18, Amos 9:11-12) We Gentile and Israel are one Body in the house hold of God by the body of Christ, by virtue of believers being graphed in to him and and the unbelievers being cut out. Acts 15:16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:...2 Samuel 7:12-14 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

"Paul tells the Galatians Christians are the children of Abraham and Sarah, and that unbelieving ethnic Jews are not the children of Abraham and Sarah, and therefor are not the children of Jacob/Israel.  And, if Christians are the children of Abraham and Sarah through Christ, whom also is the seed of Israel, then Christians are Israel." In Galatians Paul is using Abraham's wives to illustrate the two covenants that bind people to the household of God. One of service and after the flesh (Israel's covenant) and one of son ship (Christ's covenant). At death, those only in the first, (Israelite after the flesh only), are cast out of God's house but the sons after the Spirit abides forever. The Galatians were sons only and not Israelites, yet desired to become bondservants after the flesh by following after the covenant of Israel. It was not about thier ethnicity but their covenants. Believing Israelite were in both covenants first by their flesh and second by their faith. In fact Paul was admonishing them NOT to become "spiritual" Israelites! They had liberty by remaining Spiritual gentiles. Acts 21:19-26 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.  20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: 21 and they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. 22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. 23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; 24 them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. 25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication. 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

 

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1 hour ago, Shoostie said:

"The Olive Tree in Romans 11 is the Promise?  ... Didn't you just equate the Promise with the Olive Tree?  Now you say Jesus?  Jesus has no children, and therefor no natural branches.Christ is the mediator of the Promises and is the promised seed of Abraham and David that was to build the Spiritual house and city of God. John 15:3-6 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned....Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his....1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in  him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

"You say the Galatians are sons only, but not Israelites?  Sons of what?" Sons of God. Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus...Romans 8:16-17 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.... Galatians 3:1-3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

"2 Samuel 7 verse 5 looks like it says David's house is the house of Israel, which is Israel." No where does it say his house is equal to Israel. In fact his Spiritual house is equivalent to New Jerusalem and Not Israel. John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.... Psalm 87:2-62 The Lord loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob. 3 Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah. 4 I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there. 5 And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her. 6 The Lord shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah....1 Peter 2:4-6 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5 ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded....Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city....Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

Edited by John Young
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Romans 9

3  For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

 4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

 5  Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

 

Why would the Apostle Paul, under the Inspiration of the Holy Spirit, refer to his kinsmen according to the flesh as Israelites, if God was now done with national Israel and had replaced them?

Yet Paul very specifically denote his kinsmen according to the flesh as "Israelites".

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33 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

You couldn't quote just one more verse, which answers your question?  I have already spoken about that verse in this thread.

I didn't need to quote just one more verse, because it doesn't do what you suggest.

The plain fact is that God, through the Apostle Paul, refers to the nation of Israel as Israel AFTER your appointed time of Him so called rejecting them.

God still consider national Israel to be Israel, REGARDLESS of the next verse.

I am not by the way rejecting the rest of the passage, just pointing out that the next verse and continuing do NOT nullify the point of verses 3 - 5.

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Oh yeah, you still haven't done the basic thing of good manners and introduced yourself in the intro section.

I don't think I have ever joined a forum that didn't have an introduction section, and it was simply expected as part of decent forum etiquette that any new member posted a formal introduction post. In some fora I have been a part of you could not post anywhere except the intro section until after you had posted an intro post.

This is the only place I can remember where so many people not only don't automatically post an intro, but actually refuse to do so when asked.

In the overwhelming majority of cases where people refuse to post an intro, it turns out that they are only here to cause trouble. Just an observation.....

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20 hours ago, Shoostie said:

How does that answer anything I've said?  I asked how a promise, or Jesus, can have natural branches, when they don't have children.  They don't have natural branches, therefor they aren't the Olive Tree in Romans 11.  The Olive Tree is Israel.

How can you even say no where does it say his house is equal to Israel?  David is of Israel, therefor his house is of Israel. 

David is physically part of Israel after the flesh but we are not talking about a physical Olive Tree with physical branches or the physical people after the flesh. We are  talking about the Spiritual Olive Tree  that is in the House of God, which is Christ. Because David trust in Christ He is in the Spiritual Tree. He is not in the tree by mere fact of being of Israel but by faith which is the oil that flows from the Olive Tree of God.

Psalm 52 To the chief Musician, Maschil, A Psalm of David, when Doeg the Edomite came and told Saul, and said unto him, David is come to the house of Ahimelech. 1 Why boastest thou thyself in mischief, O mighty man? the goodness of God endureth  continually. 2 Thy tongue deviseth mischiefs; like a sharp razor, working deceitfully. 3 Thou lovest evil more than good; and lying rather than to speak righteousness. Selah. 4 Thou lovest all devouring words, O thou deceitful tongue. 5 God shall likewise destroy thee for ever, he shall take thee away, and pluck thee out of thy dwelling place, and root thee out of the land of the living. Selah. 6 The righteous also shall see, and fear, and shall laugh at him: 7 lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness. 8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever. 9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

The Natural Branches are those that were born into the physical covenant nation of God to whom "were committed the oracles of God" they had the most opportunity to believe before being cut off by sin, unlike the Non covenanted nations who were "wild" by NATURE. 

Edited by John Young
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14 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

David is the olive tree, Jesus is the olive tree, and the Promise is the Olive tree, have all apparently been floated as the Romans 11 Olive Tree in, in this thread.  Two of those have no natural branches.  Who are the natural branches of David?  Jesus was one.  But, really, you want to limit the Olive Tree in Romans 11 to just the descendants of David and graphed-on Christians?  The Olive Tree in Romans 11 isn't David, and even if it is David, he's part of Israel, and so Christians are still Israel.  

No, we're not talking about an olive tree with physical branches.  I'm talking about an olive tree that represents Israel and the branches are the natural children of Jacob.  And, Christians are graphed onto that tree and the natural branches without faith are cut off.  I don't know what you're talking about.

In the garden of God there were two main trees, The Tree of Life and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen 3). In Israel's Temple for God, (The physical house Solomon built for God) there were two cherubs in the oracle room made of Olive Trees and overlaid in Gold along with two doors made of olive trees (1 Kings 6:23, 32). Zechariah was shown these two trees conveyed oil into the Seven Lamps of God (the seven spirits of the churches) that lighted and guided the churches of God (Zechariah 4, Revelation 1:20). In regards to mankind these two trees/testaments are mediated by two shepherds/ anointed ones/ Moses and Elijah, one representing Law/flesh (Bands) and the other representing Grace/spirit (beauty). In regards to Israel, their churches/synagogues were to be guided and fed with oil from from both trees but their shepherds stopped up the flow so God said he would break both "staffs". Bands which was for Israel and Beauty which was for all people. Beauty was paid for instead of broken and it was sacrificed on the cross and Israel the nation was disbanded. It goes on to say that Israel's shepherds would go on using broken Bands but would be blinded to Beauty and therefor would not see Christ (THE BRANCH, Zechariah 3:8, 6:12) coming to them from that olive tree of Life (Zechariah 11). This Leading up to the tree in Romans 11 shows the Olive Tree they were cut off from was the tree of Life that is in the garden of God and from Christ and faith in him even though they still trusted in Bands (which was broken).

Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Edited by John Young
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13 minutes ago, Shoostie said:

Verse six, which you didn't quote, nullifies your position. Yes, the Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory... but the adoption, glory, etc does not apply to all of Paul's kinsmen according to the flesh, because not all Israel (the flesh) is Israel (of God).  And, then Paul goes on to belabor that point.  

 

Oh you mean this verse 6:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

You mean this verse where God makes a distinction between physical Israel, STILL CALLING THEM ISRAEL.

Why would God refer to them as Israel, if He no longer considered them to be Israel?

So this verse, like the previous ones I mentioned, STILL POSE THE PROBLEM for you that God Himself continues to make the distinction and refer to national Israel as Israel.

Now are you seriously suggesting that the covenants etc are not regarding national Israel, "of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came"...?

4  Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 

 5  Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

You need to understand context, because vs 3, vs 4, and vs 5 are all referring to national Israel.

Paul designates it in vs 3, and national Israel is ABSOLUTELY still the subject and the people through whom Christ came. 

You cannot change the context at a whim.

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