Vision\Angles

[Guest Cindy098]

Has anyone on this forum ever had a miracle or supernatural experience as a Christian.

Do they happen ? 

What are some bible verses on visions 

[DaveW]

More importantly, the Bible is our authority. No vision of any kind can or will supercede or override Scripture.

Keep that in mind, and discuss whatever you like about visions.....

[Jerry]

What’s your “angle” in this thread?

Just joking around with the spelling error - but I am curious where you are going with this topic?

[Tanemahuta]

It's either a yes or no answer. But experiences are subjective. Everyone perceives things differently. That's just how the human brain works. Most of what you will hear on this subject some incomprehensible gibberish about how someone heard about someone seeing or doing or being healed from something.

Plus in controlled conditions, absolutely no one that we can tell has ever had a real supernatural experience. Again, anecdotes, etc. Anecdotes are just stories. They aren't even close to evidence.

I used to be a Christian. (Please don't use the No True Scotsman fallacy. It's bull, and everyone knows it.)I loved it. No joke. I did everything I did to bring "souls" to Jesus. I was pretty good at it too. But times change. So do people. 

What I'm trying to say is this: Be wary of people who claim to have seen the impossible, or can do the impossible. Think of it this way. If faith healing worked, hospital rooms would be full of praying and no modern medicine would even be necessary.

If something sounds improbable, it probably is.

[Jim_Alaska]

10 minutes ago, Tanemahuta said:

     I used to be a Christian.

These six words, out of the rest of the text, just about says it all. It pretty much says you wore the name as a garment. i.e. Put it on when it suits you and take it off when you want to be something else.

[DaveW]

Faith healing, tongues etc, are a different thing altogether.

I agree that if faith healing was true today these people would go hospitals not stadiums - sicknpeople are typically found in hospitals, not stadiums where you normally have to buy a ticket.

But I do think God can still work miracles. The problem with the testing that you mention is that you are trying to test spiritual things by physical methods. Sort of like trying to test the speed of a plane by measuring trees - you aren't going to get anything useful because you are testing the wrong thing, meanwhile the plane still goes by at a rate of knots. 

The thing still happens, you just can't  see any spiritual evidence because you are trying to measure by physical means - the result is there, the reason behind it is not measurable. 

[Tanemahuta]

Like I said. No True Scotsman. My faith was quite literally the most important thing for me. But, you see., I got curious. So, I started studying things aside from my Bible. And guess what I found? The Bible was wrong, about a great many things. You see, that was when I realized that my belief was no longer a matter of will. I realized that I would rather be accurate than believe what I know to be false.

Oh, and Jim, obviously I need to explain something else to you. I have been an Atheist since I was 20. I am now 39. that means I have been wearing the same "garment" for 19 years. You see, I can't fake it 'til I make it. Now, I can only believe that which has sufficient evidence to support it. 

If what you believe is out of faith, that's fine and up to you. But you don't get to tell anyone what they believe, or how they do it. That is for them to decide.

 

[DaveW]

24 minutes ago, Tanemahuta said:

But you don't get to tell anyone what they believe, or how they do it.

Oh you mean like what you tried to do in you first post????

Maybe your "brand" of "Christianity" was false (many are) but the Bible is not. Then again maybe your Bible was false - many are.

How about you start a thread about the errors in the Bible that convinced you......

Then again, if you don't believe anything about the Bible why are you even here?

Is you purpose to destroy the faith of some here?

If you don't believe in anything then what difference does make if others do? - why not leave them to be happy?

[DaveW]

 

Ok, I don't know of this guy will ever come back - I somehow doubt it as he joined up to make some claims and accusations, and is just unlikely to come back now that he has made those statements. 

I however would like to address some of them for future readers.

His claim of "No true Scotsman" etc is a matter of opinion not evidence. He knew someone would question his salvation and wanted to head it off at the pass, but despite his protestations, it is a legitimate question to pose. If this man gave up on his salvation, then was he ever saved in the first place? He even said at one point:

4 hours ago, Tanemahuta said:

You see, I can't fake it 'til I make it. 

In which he basically admits that he was faking it, and thereby PROVES his "No true Scotsman" issue.

Secondly he calls for people to:

5 hours ago, Tanemahuta said:

Be wary of people who claim to have seen the impossible, or can do the impossible.

But he himself has not really defined what he means by "the impossible" and he also presents no proof that miracles are not true. He present an argument from silence - evidence doesn't exist to prove it so it must not be true.

This is not accurate in two ways:

1. Evidence does indeed exist, he just doesn't like it.

2. Lack of evidence is no evidence against something. For Instance, I don't see polar bears in my area. I don't find any tracks, any scat, and I have never seen one. I know there are pictures, but I suspect they have been doctored and therefore I refuse to accept them as valid. I have no valid evidence for the existence of polar bears, Therefore polar bears cannot exist. (Note: I do believe Polar bears are real - it is for the sake of example.)

You can see that the lack of evidence for something is not evidence against something.

4 hours ago, Tanemahuta said:

So, I started studying things aside from my Bible. And guess what I found? The Bible was wrong, about a great many things.

He speaks about evidence but provides none. If he ever comes back I really do hope he starts a thread about the errors in the Bible, but I hope he first of all notes which Bible and which form of Christianity he was a part of, and which doctrines he is speaking of. What people teach about the Bible is full of errors - even the best meaning preacher makes mistakes, let alone those who do so with intent.

So to make such a claim without evidence goes against the very process which he says pulled away from "Christianity ".

4 hours ago, Tanemahuta said:

Now, I can only believe that which has sufficient evidence to support it. 

Interesting that he speaks of evidence here while providing absolutely none in his accusations.

I have to ask what evidence there is for what he now "believes"? Do you believe in the evolutionary process by any chance? Because if you have studied any field of evolutionary science, you must know that there is not enough evidence to back them up.

I am happy to discuss any field of evolutionary science with you and show the basic assumptions involved in them for which there is no evidence - that is why they are assumptions- the real question is whether those assumptions are REASONABLE, not whether there is solid evidence. There just isn't  the evidence, that's  why they make assumptions.

So, what evidence is there for what he believes? 

Well since we don't know what he believes other than being an atheist, we can't really answer that.

By the way an atheist is one who believes there is no God, but to know that for certain you would have to have all knowledge of all things, otherwise you have to admit that somewhere in the small amount of things you don't know, God might just be there......

Now by definition who is the only one that has all knowledge of all things?

That's right only one, and that one would be.........God.

So for an atheist to truly be an atheist, he would have to be God.......You sir, are not really an atheist, you are an agnostic who wants there to be no God.

Edited April 15, 2019 by DaveW
Auto correct, and added parenthesis about polar bears.

[John Young]

I know a lot of people who look saved for one reason or another but aren't. Some grew up as Christians and knew the actions and even liked the culture and had it in the head as a nice way to live life and even perceived it as intellectually viable, or even believed in Christianity on some level but it was never in their heart. God was never their authority and when something better to them came along, they took it. Parable of the four soils as an example.

Atheism is just another religion, and like another, attempts to convert to their cause and sow seeds of doubt. If he merely became a secularist and naturalist then he would not care about Christians, as its all over when we die anyway. Much less come on a Baptist forum. He would just think to live and let live. His appeal to the fallacy of the "no true Scotsman" is plain silly considering he is an apologist for atheism. If he is to claim that fallacy then he would have to reasonably prove his conversion by providing at least his salvation and baptism testimonial, his local church contact information so we can verify his Christian service. Then, if he held up to the outward signs of being a true born again Christian and then we who examined him removed or modified the scriptural qualifications, only then could he claim the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. As it stands he could just be some white dude in a kilt claiming to be a Scotsman.

[No Nicolaitans]

To assume that all  "Christians" believe in the same doctrines is erroneous. He has come to the wrong place for that.

If the OP writer is still here, please share with us what denomination you belonged to.

What you will find is that the long-time members here don't subscribe to such things as you described.

Belief isn't about miracles and such...it's about a daily walk; wherein, the believer becomes more like Christ. We are molded more into his image...instead of us molding him into a puppet on a string.

[No Nicolaitans]

11 hours ago, Tanemahuta said:

So, I started studying things aside from my Bible. And guess what I found? The Bible was wrong, about a great many things.

I have to ask this, and I'm not requesting for you to answer...I merely would request that you honestly think about the question and answer it honestly within your own heart.

Did you truly find that the Bible was wrong...or...did you find that what you had been taught that the Bible says was wrong?

There's a huge difference.

Over the years, I've come to realize that some things that I was taught about the Bible was wrong. Did it affect me? Oh yeah...it sure did.

Now...I've never believed in any type of Charismatic doctrines; such as, healings and miracles "at the will, the request, or the demand of man". Even as a young Christian, I saw the fallacy of that, and I couldn't understand how folks could buy into it...and many folks literally BUY into it. Yes, I believe in angels...but not in the way that you're implying. Visions? In the way you're implying? No. I believe that the Holy Spirit can impress...or lead a believer...but as far as visions...no.

A few of the things that I once believed (and later learned weren't true) did cause me some issues...just being honest here. However, it never caused me to turn away from Christ. What it did do was this...it caused me to study God's word more deeply in order to find his truth. My issue was never with the Bible; the issue was what man told me the Bible said...

One last question. Again, I'm not asking you to answer here...answer honestly to yourself and in your own heart...

You stated that your faith was once the most important thing for you. What was your faith truly grounded in...was it grounded in God's word, or was it in grounded in what you had been taught that God's word said?

Many people are deceived by false doctrine, because they put their faith in what man tells them God says instead of studying God's word for themselves to see if it's true.

Not all Christians believe the same. That would be similar to saying all Americans are the same. Some Americans hate America. Some Americans love it. Some Americans kind of like it, but they would love it if they could take away America's freedoms so that it would become a Socialist country. They can all claim to be Americans, but in their heart is what separates them from being true Americans.

 

[Alan]

56 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

 They can all claim to be Americans, but in their heart is what separates them from being true Americans. 

 

The heart makes the difference.