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2 hours ago, DaveW said:

Well then, according to the plain order of events laid out in Acts 2:41, you MUST believe that baptism is part of salvation, because the order is: recieved the word, THEN baptized, THEN added unto them (the church).

If the church is that universal group of all believers then according to Acts 2:41 baptism completes your salvation.

If however the church is local, the order does not add baptism to salvation, but they three separate events, occurring in a specific order: salvation, baptism, added to a local church.

Scripture is absolutely clear on this point of the order of events.

Universal church nessecitates baptismal regeneration, local church shows them as separate events.

Dave has brought out a valid point that should be addressed and not ignored in this discussion.

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2 hours ago, DaveW said:

Well then, according to the plain order of events laid out in Acts 2:41, you MUST believe that baptism is part of salvation, because the order is: recieved the word, THEN baptized, THEN added unto them (the church).

If the church is that universal group of all believers then according to Acts 2:41 baptism completes your salvation.

If however the church is local, the order does not add baptism to salvation, but they three separate events, occurring in a specific order: salvation, baptism, added to a local church.

Scripture is absolutely clear on this point of the order of events.

Universal church nessecitates baptismal regeneration, local church shows them as separate events.

I do NOT believe baptism is part of salvation, baptism is an ordinance and should not precede "church" membership. Acts 2:47 confirms that:

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." Acts 2:47 KJV

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1 minute ago, BobbyH said:

I do NOT believe baptism is part of salvation, baptism is an ordinance and should not precede "church" membership. Acts 2:47 confirms that:

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." Acts 2:47 KJV

I didn't think you did believe that baptism is a part of salvation, but the verses that I have pointed to show that in order to make "church" from that passage the universal group of all believers, a person MUST believe in baptismal regeneration, for the order of events is indisputable. 

The order of events in vs 41 is: received the word, baptised, added unto them - this order states clearly that they were baptised before they were added (vs 47 identifies what they were added to, the church).

There are two possible ways to look at this passage then - either:

  • "the church" mentioned is not the universal group of all believers, and then we can easily say that salvation and baptism are not part of the same process, or
  • "the church" IS the universal group of all believers, in which case baptism is clearly a requirement to finish salvation, for it is ONLY AFTER being baptised that they were added to the church.

This is the simple issue in this passage - the order is exceptionally plain - received the word (saved) THEN baptised, THEN added unto them (the church).

This is what the Bible says - there is no way around this matter. either it is a local church and salvation is totally separate to baptism and totally separate to being added to the church, or it is a universal church and baptism comes after receiving the word, BUT before being added

The order of the events mentioned in Acts 2:41 is clear:

Received (saved) -----------------------------> Baptised -------------------------------> Added (vs 47 to the church).

If church is universal group of all believers, then baptism MUST happen before you are added to that group. This equals baptismal regeneration, or baptism as part of salvation.

If church is local church. then salvation can still add to the group of all believers (unstated in this passage), but then the order remains as above, baptised, then added to the local church.. Salvation is separate to baptism, and baptism is separate to church membership - the timing of these things is not referenced in the passage ONLY THE ORDER.

 

And vs 47 does not say that baptism doesn't come before church membership - that would contradict vs 41. Vs 47 simple omits that information because it is commentary, not instruction. That they were baptised is already referred to in vs 41.

 

I have done nothing more than highlight the order of these events from the Bible passage, and show the logical conclusions involved.

There would appear to be no further purpose to me taking part in this discussion as I will only be restating the same information.

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14 hours ago, DaveW said:

 

The order of events in vs 41 is: received the word, baptised, added unto them - this order states clearly that they were baptised before they were added (vs 47 identifies what they were added to, the church).

There are two possible ways to look at this passage then - either:

  • "the church" mentioned is not the universal group of all believers, and then we can easily say that salvation and baptism are not part of the same process

This is the simple issue in this passage - the order is exceptionally plain - received the word (saved) THEN baptised, THEN added unto them (the church).

This is what the Bible says - there is no way around this matter. either it is a local church and salvation is totally separate to baptism and totally separate to being added to the church, or it is a universal church and baptism comes after receiving the word, BUT before being added

The order of the events mentioned in Acts 2:41 is clear:

Received (saved) -----------------------------> Baptised -------------------------------> Added (vs 47 to the church).

If church is universal group of all believers, then baptism MUST happen before you are added to that group. This equals baptismal regeneration, or baptism as part of salvation.

If church is local church. then salvation can still add to the group of all believers (unstated in this passage), but then the order remains as above, baptised, then added to the local church.. Salvation is separate to baptism, and baptism is separate to church membership - the timing of these things is not referenced in the passage ONLY THE ORDER.

 

And vs 47 does not say that baptism doesn't come before church membership - that would contradict vs 41. Vs 47 simple omits that information because it is commentary, not instruction. That they were baptised is already referred to in vs 41.

 

I have done nothing more than highlight the order of these events from the Bible passage, and show the logical conclusions involved.

There would appear to be no further purpose to me taking part in this discussion as I will only be restating the same information.

Well, I hate that you want to give up on this discussion. You have helped me to understand your interpretation. Here is what I have learned so far.

1. "The Church" in Acts was a local church which included all those saved and baptized at the time.

2. That it took Salvation and Baptism to be added to "The Church"  at that time.

3. Without baptism you could not be added to "The Church" at that time. You can be saved and not be part of "The Church".

If you respond, good, if not I appreciate your time.

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On 1/18/2019 at 1:26 AM, BobbyH said:

Well, I hate that you want to give up on this discussion. You have helped me to understand your interpretation. Here is what I have learned so far.

1. "The Church" in Acts was a local church which included all those saved and baptized at the time.

2. That it took Salvation and Baptism to be added to "The Church"  at that time.

3. Without baptism you could not be added to "The Church" at that time. You can be saved and not be part of "The Church".

If you respond, good, if not I appreciate your time.

It is not that I "want to give up", it is simply that there is basically no point to me constantly restating what the Bible says and what I have clearly explained.

As to your points, I do not like and do not agree with your added proviso of "at that time."

By adding that phrase in each of the points as you have done, you are redefining my statements, because you are attempting to summarise what I have said, but you are adding in a thought which I have not presented, did not suggest, and do not believe.

And as you have added that same phrase in each of the points, I can only assume you have done so with careful consideration.

As such you are misrepresenting me.

I was not going to bbn other clearing that up, but it is a misrepresentation of what I have stated.

What I have stated is best summarized by my little simple graphic representation of Acts 2:41.

There is no need to redefine and re-present what is the simplest form of what the Bible says in that passage.

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