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Well, Jesus is talking to the disciples at that time - the obvious conclusion is that they are the church he was talking to.

They were baptized believers, they were organized as displayed by the fact that they had a Pastor and a treasurer, and they were gathered to do the will of God - what else do they need to be a church?

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The first question would be, what constitutes the church. At the least, it must consist of Blood-bought, born-again believers. When were people born again according to the Gospel as presented in I Corinthians 15:2-4? If we take the Scripture as presented, no one is born again until after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus speaks future tense concerning His church: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18 KJV).

If the church only consists of born-again believers, and no one was born again until later, the Matthew 18:17 must also be of a future fulfillment. Further, my view is that the church was established officially on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit of God descended and endowed those meeting in the upper room. Shortly after that others were added to the church.

At the same time, Jesus was transitioning from the Old covenant to the New and certain aspects of the coming church were being established such as the officers that DaveW mentions.

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2 hours ago, DaveW said:

Well, Jesus is talking to the disciples at that time - the obvious conclusion is that they are the church he was talking to.

They were baptized believers, they were organized as displayed by the fact that they had a Pastor and a treasurer, and they were gathered to do the will of God - what else do they need to be a church?

I will agree with the believers part and at that time they were all the believers that existed. I recognize the Pastor as Jesus Christ..wasn't Judas the keeper of the purse at the time (treasurer)? IMHO I just believe that salvation adds to the Christ's Church (which this was). He is my Shepard (Pastor). I am an under-shepard  of His flock at Old Fort NC. Thanks for the reply and Pray for me.

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1 hour ago, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

The first question would be, what constitutes the church. At the least, it must consist of Blood-bought, born-again believers. When were people born again according to the Gospel as presented in I Corinthians 15:2-4? If we take the Scripture as presented, no one is born again until after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus speaks future tense concerning His church: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18 KJV).

If the church only consists of born-again believers, and no one was born again until later, the Matthew 18:17 must also be of a future fulfillment. Further, my view is that the church was established officially on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit of God descended and endowed those meeting in the upper room. Shortly after that others were added to the church.

At the same time, Jesus was transitioning from the Old covenant to the New and certain aspects of the coming church were being established such as the officers that DaveW mentions.

Surely the 120 in the upper room were blood bought born again believers and I agree they were the first "official" members of Christ's Church. I believe that those added after Peter's message were added at the time of their being blood bought, born again believers. Salvation adds to His Church. Baptism is a public demonstration (confession) of that salvation. I still love my local church here at Brookside Missionary Baptist Church - Old Fort, NC .

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23 hours ago, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

The first question would be, what constitutes the church. At the least, it must consist of Blood-bought, born-again believers. When were people born again according to the Gospel as presented in I Corinthians 15:2-4? If we take the Scripture as presented, no one is born again until after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Jesus speaks future tense concerning His church: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18 KJV).

If the church only consists of born-again believers, and no one was born again until later, the Matthew 18:17 must also be of a future fulfillment. Further, my view is that the church was established officially on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit of God descended and endowed those meeting in the upper room. Shortly after that others were added to the church.

At the same time, Jesus was transitioning from the Old covenant to the New and certain aspects of the coming church were being established such as the officers that DaveW mentions.

HMMMM, BBB, good points, however, I personally believe that the church was started before Pentecost, but not in Matthew 16, John 20 IMHO.  Matthew 16 is a promise for the future and in Acts 2, the church had to be there already, since folk were added to it.  Speaking of adding, if I may do so, I'd like to add a link to a message I brought along those lines a while back from Colossians 1, if you please.  I don't have it all figured out at all, but I believe this will further explain things and be a help/blessing.  Sunday, May 6, 2018 http://jeremiah616.sermon.net/main/main/21147528

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That's okay. I don't even agree with myself half the time. I should probably have said that the church was "empowered" on the day of Pentecost . . . when was it "established"? I agree with you in the sense that there is no verse we can point to which states, on this day I establish the institution which will be known as my body and my bride. But we know it was future in Matthew 16 and present in Acts.

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14 minutes ago, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

That's okay. I don't even agree with myself half the time. I should probably have said that the church was "empowered" on the day of Pentecost . . . when was it "established"? I agree with you in the sense that there is no verse we can point to which states, on this day I establish the institution which will be known as my body and my bride. But we know it was future in Matthew 16 and present in Acts.

I believe Jesus established the church in John 20, which was after his resurrection, although reckon Thomas got in the next service LOL!  John 20:19-23 KJB: 19   Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20   And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.
21   Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22   And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23   Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

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1 hour ago, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

I'm listening to the link you provided. I love the singing!

Thanks so much!  The song is from Bro. James and Sis. Norma Lockard, during a Preacher's Fellowship several years ago, in Auburn, KY, LOVE IT!

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2 hours ago, OFIB Preacher said:

Speaking of adding, if I may do so, I'd like to add a link to a message I brought along those lines a while back from Colossians 1, if you please.  I don't have it all figured out at all, but I believe this will further explain things and be a help/blessing.

I just listened to your fine message. Thank the Lord for you and what you do. I think some are confused on my stand and maybe I am not expressing it well enough. I believe in the "Local Church" and that we have a mighty work to do. In your message you mentioned someone that is truly born again should join with a local church for teaching and growth and I agree to that. If they do not do that right away I believe they are still part of the body of Christ and a member of His "collective" church. Were the churches of the New Testament not all part of this collective Church that began with Jesus and the apostles? I think of Paul's epistle to the Thessalonians about the rapture and I can't help but believe that his instruction was to all born again believers collectively. The New Testament speaks to us all. You pray for me and I'll do the same for you.

Brookside Missionary Baptist Church Old Fort NC

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20 minutes ago, BobbyH said:

I just listened to your fine message. Thank the Lord for you and what you do. I think some are confused on my stand and maybe I am not expressing it well enough. I believe in the "Local Church" and that we have a mighty work to do. In your message you mentioned someone that is truly born again should join with a local church for teaching and growth and I agree to that. If they do not do that right away I believe they are still part of the body of Christ and a member of His "collective" church. Were the churches of the New Testament not all part of this collective Church that began with Jesus and the apostles? I think of Paul's epistle to the Thessalonians about the rapture and I can't help but believe that his instruction was to all born again believers collectively. The New Testament speaks to us all. You pray for me and I'll do the same for you.

Brookside Missionary Baptist Church Old Fort NC

Brother H,

Thanks for listening, thank/praise the LORD for you and your work as well!  I believe that when the LORD saves someone, they'll align themselves with a Bible-believing, Bible-preaching/teaching, Bible-practicing church and in doing so, if they'll listen to the LORD, He'll lead them to an Independent Baptist church.  If they disregard His leading, they'll be in rebellion and I believe they won't go any further in their relationship/fellowship with God.  Are they saved and part of the bride?  Maybe, but if so, they could leave this world prematurely, because of the aforementioned rebellion.  Again, thanks for listening and they encouragement!

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The Church is built by Jesus Christ on the foundation that He is "The Christ" The apostles built local churches with Him as the Chief Cornerstone. All these are still His Church.

 

Are there tares in His Church? Yes. However, He tells us to let Him sort that out!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            

"Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved." Acts 2:47

"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matthew 18:20

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Let me further clarify my previous post, please.  The LORD has always had His local, visible church (and churches) here, ever since He started the first one in John 20.  They may not have always had Independent Baptist on the shingle (so to speak), but they've been here nonetheless.  I believe there are truly born again folk in man-made denominations/churches and they do grow in grace, because God will honor His word (KJB), even though it may not be rightly divided.  Furthermore, individual, local Independent Baptist churches may and do go liberal and when they do, they cease to be one of God's local churches.  Oh and yes, the enemy has sown tares among the wheat, the LORD will take care of them/that.

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20 hours ago, DaveW said:

What are the requirements for a church to be a church?

Were the 12 disciples saved? (aside from Judas)?

Were they gathered together for the purpose of serving the Lord and doing His will?

Were they baptised?

Were they organised and orderly?

What more did the disciples and Jesus need to be classified as a church?

If it swims like a duck, and flies like a duck, if it waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, what do you think it might be?

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On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 9:19 AM, BobbyH said:

Surely the 120 in the upper room were blood bought born again believers and I agree they were the first "official" members of Christ's Church. I believe that those added after Peter's message were added at the time of their being blood bought, born again believers. Salvation adds to His Church. Baptism is a public demonstration (confession) of that salvation. I still love my local church here at Brookside Missionary Baptist Church - Old Fort, NC .

"Salvation adds to His Church"

in respect to this one single portion, can I ask you to consider something?

Act 2:41
(41)  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
and:

Act 2:47
(47)  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
verse 47 clarifies exactly what they were added to - I think there is little debate about that point - added to the church.

However, in considering this passage, what is the order of events here?

Is it not "received his word" (saved), then "baptised", then "added unto them" (the church: see vs 47)?

It is very clear that baptism comes before being added to the church - so if we believe that baptism is not part of salvation (and I certainly believe that baptism is not part of salvation), then we have to understand a couple of things from this passage.

These people were added not to the group of all believers, for that is salvation, and they were clearly baptised BEFORE being added. The church being spoken of here MUST be a local church, or else you MUST follow after baptism being a part of salvation.

The order is clearly noted -  "received his word" (saved), then "baptised", then "added unto them" (the church: see vs 47).

And before someone tries to make this baptism something other than water baptism:

Act 2:38
(38)  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter, in this verse is clearly noting that "baptism" in this context is a separate thing to the "receiving of the Holy Spirit". This baptism IS NOT HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM, because Peter say it is not......

(And I don't believe that Peter is teaching baptism is part of salvation either, but if we go down that trail we will simply be adding confusion - one passage at a time folks.)

 

Funny isn't it, that my use of these passages seems to support baptismal regeneration - but ONLY if you accept the idea of a universal church - if the Bible is speaking of a local church ONLY in this passage, then it absolutely defies the concept of baptismal regeneration...….

 

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On 1/14/2019 at 6:50 PM, Baptist_Bible_Believer said:

That's okay. I don't even agree with myself half the time. I should probably have said that the church was "empowered" on the day of Pentecost . . . when was it "established"? I agree with you in the sense that there is no verse we can point to which states, on this day I establish the institution which will be known as my body and my bride. But we know it was future in Matthew 16 and present in Acts.

The First Baptist Church of Jerusalem was started on the shores of Galilee when Jesus called Simon Peter and Andrew to follow him.  From this point on the local church functioned as the local, visible, church described in the scriptures.

"And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they straightway left their nets, and followed him." - Matthew 4:18-20

 

"Now as he walked by the sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and Andrew his brother casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.  And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.  And straightway they forsook their nets, and followed him." - Mark 1:16-18

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13 hours ago, DaveW said:

"Salvation adds to His Church"

 

Act 2:41
(41)  Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
and:

Act 2:47
(47)  Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
verse 47 clarifies exactly what they were added to - I think there is little debate about that point - added to the church.

However, in considering this passage, what is the order of events here?

Is it not "received his word" (saved), then "baptised", then "added unto them" (the church: see vs 47)?

 

 

I appreciate your thorough explanation. My prayerful conviction is that baptism does not add you to the Lord's Church. Salvation does. I do believe baptism is an ordinance as well as communion. I believe it is necessary as part of the great commission. I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost after I was saved not to join a local church, but to be obedient to Christ. I want to tell you I had never even heard of this doctrine until recently. I have been Baptist my entire Christian life. I am not Protestant and I am not catholic, but I do believe that Jesus's Church is the collective total of His called out assemblies of true local churches. Prayer Requested.

 

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3 hours ago, BobbyH said:

 I am not Protestant and I am not catholic, but I do believe that Jesus's Church is the collective total of His called out assemblies of true local churches. Prayer Requested.

 

If this were accurate how would anyone obey this command of Jesus that you referenced in your first post?  Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

According to your definition of "church", we would have to tell it to all the collective assemblies. Please note that even in your interpretation you use the plural "assembles" in place of the singular, "church".

Could it be that Jesus is talking about His church as an institution rather than a universal church?

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46 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

If this were accurate how would anyone obey this command of Jesus?  Mt 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

According to your definition of "church", we would have to tell it to all the collective assemblies. Please note that even in your interpretation you use the plural "assembles" in place of the singular, "church".

Jesus was talking about the local church at Jerusalem which was "The Church" at that time. His teachings are applicable to all "local churches" and to "His Church" as scripture. Is what Paul wrote to The Church at Rome not applicable to The Church at Ephesus? These churches did not exist at the Matthew 18:17 time frame, but if you are a follower of Christ it is unto you scripture. I do believe in local churches but just how autonomous are they? There is One Christ. I have noticed that you also use local "church" for several churches.

 

Edited by BobbyH
spelling it

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29 minutes ago, BobbyH said:

 I have noticed that you also use local "church" for several churches.

Bro. H 

My use of the  word "church" (singular) is never meant to be understood as more than one church., but rather it is to be understood as either a single church or the church as an institution.  A worldly example might go like this: "The car is a wonderful invention."  Everyone would understand that I do not mean any one car, but rather the invention of the mechanical thing we call a car.

Scripture never uses the word "church" (singular) to mean anything other than a single church or the church as an institution. When Scripture indicates more than one church it always uses the word "churches" (plural)

 Ac 9:31 Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Ghost, were multiplied. 

 Ac 15:41 And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches. 

 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 

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5 hours ago, BobbyH said:

I appreciate your thorough explanation. My prayerful conviction is that baptism does not add you to the Lord's Church. Salvation does. I do believe baptism is an ordinance as well as communion. I believe it is necessary as part of the great commission. I was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost after I was saved not to join a local church, but to be obedient to Christ. I want to tell you I had never even heard of this doctrine until recently. I have been Baptist my entire Christian life. I am not Protestant and I am not catholic, but I do believe that Jesus's Church is the collective total of His called out assemblies of true local churches. Prayer Requested.

 

Well then, according to the plain order of events laid out in Acts 2:41, you MUST believe that baptism is part of salvation, because the order is: recieved the word, THEN baptized, THEN added unto them (the church).

If the church is that universal group of all believers then according to Acts 2:41 baptism completes your salvation.

If however the church is local, the order does not add baptism to salvation, but they three separate events, occurring in a specific order: salvation, baptism, added to a local church.

Scripture is absolutely clear on this point of the order of events.

Universal church nessecitates baptismal regeneration, local church shows them as separate events.

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4 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Bro. H 

My use of the  word "church" (singular) is never meant to be understood as more than one church., but rather it is to be understood as either a single church or the church as an institution.  A worldly example might go like this: "The car is a wonderful invention."  Everyone would understand that I do not mean any one car, but rather the invention of the mechanical thing we call a car.

 

 

"Institution" is a curious word. I am going to have to chew on that for a while!  

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