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Eustace

Why Large Families?

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Background: My family attends an English speaking independent fundamental Baptist church in Germany.  I am not comfortable asking certain questions at the church because I don't really think the people there are equipped to discuss many subjects on a meaningful level, and I do not want to disrupt what has become something of a social club for my wife.  My church growing up was a pre-1995 Southern Baptist one.

I've definitely noticed that having many children (4+) is a major point of pride for the church going crowd, missionaries, etc.

I am aware of the parts of Genesis where God instructs man to "be fruitful and multiply" and "fill the Earth and subdue it."  But modern interpretations of Christianity seem to decry the existence of nations and emphasize that the Kingdom of God is in heaven.  Many Christian sects push open borders and the mixing of all the peoples of the Earth.  So why do modern Christians still have large families?  And I've noted that a large majority of these large Christian families are all of the same "nation."

Some modern Christian sects are known to adopt children from Africa and push especially hard for open borders and the abolition of the nation state.  It seems logically inconsistent for modern Christians to marry within their nation and produce many children when they could marry outside of their nation and adopt disadvantaged children from Africa or other poor parts of the Earth.  So, how do you resolve this logical contradiction?  Why do modern Christians have many children when most modern interpretations of Christianity seem to preach contradictory messages?

nation (n.)

c. 1300, nacioun, "a race of people, large group of people with common ancestry and language," from Old French nacion "birth, rank; descendants, relatives; country, homeland" (12c.) and directly from Latin nationem (nominative natio) "birth, origin; breed, stock, kind, species; race of people, tribe," literally "that which has been born," from natus, past participle of nasci "be born" (Old Latin gnasci), from PIE root *gene- "give birth, beget," with derivatives referring to procreation and familial and tribal groups.

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Welcome from America Eustace!  Ask your questions to the pastor.

As for families, you also can look to the Psalms, that it is a blessing for a man to have a quiver full of children.  Children belong to God, we raise them up for Him.  Christian churches pushing open borders are no longer following the bible and instead have become useful idiots, pushing one world communism.  Without a border and citizenship you do not have a country.  The scriptures make clear that nations and citizens are part of His plan since the fall.  Without a country, it is impossible to secure the blessings of God for a people.

My wife and I love children and she loved carrying them.  I was too selfish at the time and we stopped at three.  Another bad decision.  A few years later the Lord saved me from my sins and I quickly learned that had I leaned on the Lord to provide and not on my own, he would have given my wife and I as many children as He saw fit.

 

The left's destruction of the family by promoting adultery, fornication and the murder of the unborn among other reasons is why we no longer see as normal couples having large families.  Both of my parents and my wife's came from large families.  And yet, because of abortion, they did not have large families and even some of our siblings survived being aborted!  The parents turned around on the way to the butcher and those lives were spared.  How wicked and evil a society has become to promote such as normal and an option.

 

I cannot, you cannot afford to have a large family robycop3; but God can supply all that is necessary for a large family if we put our trust in Him.  

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Swathdiver, we could've afforded several more, but we stopped at two, and here's why: The 1st pregnancy went textbook-smooth, but the 2nd one had quite a few probs. However, both babies were fine & are now Christians & pro firemen in their 30s, with kids of their own.

 

  During the time of their childhood, my wife & I both worked 2 jobs, & had just-enough ATTENTION to supply both boys. And we believe God was telling us "Enough " with the complications of the 2nd pregnancy. 

 

  I don't believe it's automatic for Christian families to breed like rabbits. I believe God chooses limits for all. And again, there's the matter of having enough ATTENTION for all. I believe the RCC encourages large families in hopes of their raising more RCs.

 

  And we must remember God has many ways to etll us "enough is enough".

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When my wife and I were working, the day care center spent more time with our children than we did.  That certainly was not enough, nor was the effort we spent undoing over dinner the indoctrination our oldest endured in government school during the day.  We sacrificed proper parenting for materialism.

Whatever their motivations, it is not wrong to encourage parents to have many children, that's just plain bible.  It's obvious that you are disparage this line of thinking with that remark about rabbits.  

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  Yes, I'm quite dead-set in that respect. I believe it's wrong to have more children than a couple can care for completely. Having worked as a cop and a paramedic, I've seen too many "fertile" people produce too many kids who became criminals, welfare cases, etc.  God has many ways of communicating, and I firmly believe He lets a couple know when they've had enough kids my one means or another. We'll just hafta agree to disagree on this.

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34 minutes ago, Matt Souza said:

While I understand what you are saying, God is bigger than you, myself and money in this area. If God wants someone to have a large family and the money is not there, God WILL provide. God has been known as the Lord who will provide (Genesis 22:14 & 2 Peter 1:11). Did it make sense for the Israelites to leave Egypt when they did not have enough water or food for the trip for the children? Did it make sense for Abraham to bring Isaac into the mountain for a sacrifice? Please don't limit God's ability.

I dont think it's fair to make a blanket statement about what you've seen. I have seen what you have seen, and I also have seen God supply and take care of large families that had no financial way to take care of the kids, and I saw God provide and meet need after need. The quantity of kids is not a situation that is across the board. I must trust God in what He tells me, regardless of my bank account. GOD is bigger than anything.

Thank you brother, well said.

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  Yes, God IS bigger than all of us put together, and He has countless ways to communicate His will. And I believe that, in a Christian family, when circumstances indicate that having more kids would be a hardship on the whole family, God is telling them they've had enough children. And none of us know how many children He may choose for a given family to have.  But, when we see Christian parents with a large family, with several of the offspring becoming criminals, druggies, etc. then it's likely those parents ignored God's signals.

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6 hours ago, robycop3 said:

Yes, God IS bigger than all of us put together, and He has countless ways to communicate His will. And I believe that, in a Christian family, when circumstances indicate that having more kids would be a hardship on the whole family,  God is telling them they've had enough children.

Why did God not provide for them then? How many kids did God tell them to have? How many kids is a large family? How much money should one make per kid? Circumstances dictate how many kids? All of what you said removed God and placed you there instead.

6 hours ago, robycop3 said:

and none of us know how many children He may choose for a given family to have. 

Exactly!! If you don't know how many God has chosen for a certain family, then you can't say they have more than God told them. The problem is with sin and not the amount of kids.

6 hours ago, robycop3 said:

But, when we see Christian parents with a large family, with several of the offspring becoming criminals, druggies, etc. then it's likely those parents ignored God's signals.

Then with what you are saying, nobody should have kids. I live in one of the most populated areas in the US, and I know just as many small families with kids in jail and on drugs as I do with large families. The problem is sin and not obeying the Bible, not in you telling people if they have too many kids. It's dangerous to play God.

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First, let me preface this with the fact my grandmother's funeral is today and we a lot of family in town. Last night, a few of us got together for dinner at the hotel. I have one cousin and his wife which were there with their 6 kids.  And his older son. He was going to go into the Catholic priesthood, but just before that, he learned his girlfriend was pregnant. He had one child with her. He married his wife and they now have 6 small children. However, from what I know is he has never been self sufficient, providing for his family on his own. He believes God will provide. And he does. But a lot of financial support is from his father. Who's current wife is rightfully angry at the fact the grandfather of the 7 kids helps support them and his 35 year old son and wife.  They're both great parents, but I'm conflicted of them having more until they can independently support their current family. But it's also not my business and I would never say anything to them. 

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2 hours ago, Miss Daisy said:

First, let me preface this with the fact my grandmother's funeral is today and we a lot of family in town. Last night, a few of us got together for dinner at the hotel. I have one cousin and his wife which were there with their 6 kids.  And his older son. He was going to go into the Catholic priesthood, but just before that, he learned his girlfriend was pregnant. He had one child with her. He married his wife and they now have 6 small children. However, from what I know is he has never been self sufficient, providing for his family on his own. He believes God will provide. And he does. But a lot of financial support is from his father. Who's current wife is rightfully angry at the fact the grandfather of the 7 kids helps support them and his 35 year old son and wife.  They're both great parents, but I'm conflicted of them having more until they can independently support their current family. But it's also not my business and I would never say anything to them. 

I can understand that conflict. I know a young family who lost their 3-4 kids to Child Protective Services (rightly), and it is now a burden on the grandparents to raise them so they stay in a Christian family. Then they had another baby - who was also taken (in fairness, CPS was not blameless in their approach to this last child).  One is frustrated at them for adding another child to this complicated mess. 

On the other hand, I know a family that just had their 6th, and one expecting their 5th. I am happy and excited for them - because they provide for and properly raise their children. The problem is not the number of children. It's not even that families make little money and can't afford children (my parents raised two on disability pension - trust me, they probably couldn't 'afford' even one). The problem is people who will not step up and take care of those they have. If your cousin was acting the adult and taking care of his own family, I'd bet you would be feeling no conflict at all about his number of kids. Am I right? 

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Thank you. Yes, your right. They're great parents. On the other side of the family, I have a cousin who had 5 kids, 4 dads. And they were all taken away by CPS rightfully so. The stepdad's teenage son was raping the 10 year old. Very sad. They've all been adopted by other families. But she's not "fixed" and will have another baby I'm sure as soon as she finds a donor.  The kids all knew their extended family and were not able to be adopted by any relations because they knew they would see their mother at family functions or knew the mother would find them or the crazy grandmother would.  She and the husband and all her kids (5) and his (4) all state aid cases from food to medical and on and on. So truly very different cases. But still similar but at the same time, so different fathers. Both unwilling to financially work to support their own brood.

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On 3/10/2019 at 12:42 PM, Matt Souza said:

Why did God not provide for them then? How many kids did God tell them to have? How many kids is a large family? How much money should one make per kid? Circumstances dictate how many kids? All of what you said removed God and placed you there instead.

Exactly!! If you don't know how many God has chosen for a certain family, then you can't say they have more than God told them. The problem is with sin and not the amount of kids.

Then with what you are saying, nobody should have kids. I live in one of the most populated areas in the US, and I know just as many small families with kids in jail and on drugs as I do with large families. The problem is sin and not obeying the Bible, not in you telling people if they have too many kids. It's dangerous to play God.

  'Tis at least as dangerous to tell a couple to breed like rabbits.

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The matter of children becoming criminals and drug addicts has NOTHING to do with the number of children and everything to do with the teaching and leading of the parents.

If the parents are doing what they should as parents then the GREATEST LIKELIHOOD is that the children will at least grow up to be "good kids" and most likely they will grow to be decent serving Christians. Every man will still walk his own path and is individually responsible, but the greatest influence is godly parents, not the number of children in a family.

One could just as easily pull statistics to show that children from families where both parents work are more likely to become criminals.

One could very easily show that children from single parent families are more likely to end up as criminals. 

Statistically both of these are true.

But they are not solid laws that cannot be overcome.

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6 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  'Tis at least as dangerous to tell a couple to breed like rabbits.

You completely ignored my response to make an assumption that was never there. Please re-read my post. Not one single person here has said to tell couples to breed like rabbits, all we said is we dont know how many kids God told certain people to have other than ourselves. I will gladly change my views if you can use at least just one verse of Scripture to prove your point. Scripture is my final authority, not someone's opinion, so if you're telling me something is wrong, then you must have a Bible verse to back that up.

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1 hour ago, Matt Souza said:

You completely ignored my response to make an assumption that was never there. Please re-read my post. Not one single person here has said to tell couples to breed like rabbits, all we said is we dont know how many kids God told certain people to have other than ourselves. I will gladly change my views if you can use at least just one verse of Scripture to prove your point. Scripture is my final authority, not someone's opinion, so if you're telling me something is wrong, then you must have a Bible verse to back that up.

 Well, ACTUALLY, I was posting the alternative. If it's dangerous to tell people not to have kids, it's just-as-dangerous to tell them  to have a large number.

  And yes, I've seen small families raise jailbirds, & large families saise all saints, but those are exceptions rather than rules.

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@robycop3 Since you did not use Scripture, this issue of family size is a personal issue for you, not a Biblical one?

To be honest, I really don't want to carry on a conversation about what is right or wrong when the person will not use scripture to validate a position.

10 minutes ago, robycop3 said:

And yes, I've seen small families raise jailbirds, & large families saise all saints, but those are exceptions rather than rules.

Not saying you are wrong, but it sounds as if you are stating this as fact. I would like to see the numbers. Can you show me stats on this? 

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One thing that can be statistically proven is that families where both parents work have more of such problems than families where the wife stays at home to raise the children.

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Is this guy still around?

On 3/12/2019 at 2:35 AM, robycop3 said:

  'Tis at least as dangerous to tell a couple to breed like rabbits.

“Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.” - Pslams 127:5

How do you square your belief against the Lord's here?

It's horse sense to me that when my view contradicts God's Word, it's my view that needs a changin'!

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On 3/12/2019 at 11:18 AM, Matt Souza said:

Not saying you are wrong, but it sounds as if you are stating this as fact. I would like to see the numbers. Can you show me stats on this? 

@robycop3 When you get some time, can you please show me where the stats are. I genuinely know want to know if the majority of jail cells are filled with people coming from large families like you claimed.

4 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Is this guy still around?

I hope so. I've been trying to get Biblical answers myself. lol

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19 minutes ago, Matt Souza said:

@robycop3 When you get some time, can you please show me where the stats are. I genuinely know want to know if the majority of jail cells are filled with people coming from large families like you claimed.

I hope so. I've been trying to get Biblical answers myself. lol

  I'm going by my own experiences as a cop, which involved interviewing correctional-facility inmates. When I conducted such interviews, I had to include some background on the inmate(s) being questioned, so as to attempt to convince a judge or jury of those inmates' veracity.

  i have never consulted any statistics on the matter at hand here.

  As for having large families or not, my advice is to PRAY about it.

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On 3/24/2019 at 7:01 AM, robycop3 said:

  I'm going by my own experiences as a cop, which involved interviewing correctional-facility inmates. When I conducted such interviews, I had to include some background on the inmate(s) being questioned, so as to attempt to convince a judge or jury of those inmates' veracity.

How many of those large families with children in trouble with the law were raised with a mother and father who attended church regularly?

It's a little over 24 hours since you answered Matt's question.  Can I have mine answered now please?

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11 hours ago, swathdiver said:

How many of those large families with children in trouble with the law were raised with a mother and father who attended church regularly?

It's a little over 24 hours since you answered Matt's question.  Can I have mine answered now please?

  I know one family that had SIXTEEN children. The parents were devout Christians, bur the last five of their kids stayed in trouble with the law. And both parents died in their 50s from overwork; both worked at least 2 low-paying jobs 7 days a week, while managing to attend church regularly.

   I still believe in having only as many kids as a couple can afford to raise properly, having enough ATTENTION to give each child.

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2 hours ago, robycop3 said:

  I know one family that had SIXTEEN children. The parents were devout Christians, bur the last five of their kids stayed in trouble with the law. And both parents died in their 50s from overwork; both worked at least 2 low-paying jobs 7 days a week, while managing to attend church regularly.

   I still believe in having only as many kids as a couple can afford to raise properly, having enough ATTENTION to give each child.

That's too bad.  If they were saved the bible's way I reckon the Lord said to them, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant".

As to your last, I don't think any child can get enough of their parent's attention!  We've got an adult child with a child who still demands more time from us than her teenage sisters.

I believe that children are a gift from God and they belong to God.  We're to raise them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, as many as He wants to give us.  If we do our part, He'll provide all that is necessary.

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