Jesus is truly Israel - Mat 2:13-15; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21

[EvangAlived 5]

Jesus is truly Israel. Mat 2:13-15; Hos 11:1; Jer 31:33; Rom 9:6-8; Heb 2:13; Isa 8:16,18; Jhn 13:33, 16:33, 17:12, 18:9, 21:5; 1 Cor 15:46; 2 Cor 1:20; Gal 6:16; Heb 3:6, 8:8,10; Rev 3:21.

How can we be sure?  Well, let's go to the texts and ask some very simple questions.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Who is this, "Israel" in Hosea 11:1 and how do we know?

Further details may be seen here - http://www.pearltrees.com/awhn/sanctuary-psalms-thy-way-god/id14724670

Edited October 24, 2018 by EvangAlived

[DaveW 3,675]

Ummmm……. Nup. Not so

Not one of those passages that you reference says that Jesus is Israel.

And I read each and every passage that you reference here.

You sir, are proclaiming a falsehood in this thread.

[EvangAlived 5]

56 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Ummmm……. Nup. Not so

Not one of those passages that you reference says that Jesus is Israel.

And I read each and every passage that you reference here.

You sir, are proclaiming a falsehood in this thread.

Please, I beg you, again, 'sir' means 'lord'.  Please do not call me that. 'EA' is ok, if you prefer to never use the word 'brother' with me (though my own heart aches, and suffers it).

Matthew 2:13 KJB - And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Matthew 2:14 KJB - When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Please notice that the scripture [KJB; which cannot be broken, John 10:35 KJB] by the Gospel writer, Matthew, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost [2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:21 KJB], is citing an Old Testament prophecy [Hosea 11:1 KJB], and claims its proper and actual fulfillment is in Christ Jesus [not Israel after the flesh, who [person [Jacob, son of Isaac] and nation [his physical children]] was merely a type [Koine Greek, 'τύπος', transliterated 'tupos'], an example, earthly, a shadow [Koine Greek, 'σκία', transliterated 'skia'] [Romans 5:14; 1 Corinthians 10:6,11; Philippians 3:17; Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:5, 10:1 KJB], while Jesus Christ is the anti-type [Koine Greek, 'ἀντίτυπον', transliterated 'anti-tupon', see also 1 Peter 3:21 KJB], substance, body [Koine Greek, 'σῶμα', transliteration 'swma' [thus 'soma'] [where 'w' is O-mega, not O-micron], reality, heavenly and Light [1 Corinthians 10:3-4; Colossians 2:17; Hebrews 8:5, 10:1 KJB]]. What prophet gave the prophecy? It was the prophet Hosea:

Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

According to the prophet Hosea, “Israel” is the [male, “him”] “child”, even the “son” of God [JEHOVAH, the Father], whom God “called” “out of Egypt”.

Compare again to the words specifically used by Matthew in Matthew 2:13-15:

"the young child", "into Egypt", "the young child", "him", "the young child", "into Egypt", "that it might be fulfilled" "which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet", "Out of Egypt", "have I called", "my son".

To the words used in Hosea 11:1:

“a child”, “him”, “called” “my son” “out of Egypt”.

Who then according to Matthew and Hosea [under inspiration of the Holy Ghost] is really and truly “Israel” and the fulfillment of the coming out of Egypt.

Is it 'Jacob, son of Isaac' [Israel after the flesh], or Jesus the Christ [Israel, after the Spirit]?

While Israel after the flesh [Jacob, son of Isaac] was indeed called out of Egypt [in the days of Moses], this was not the truest fulfillment, but merely a shadow, a type, an example of the great plan of redemption, in miniature.

Jesus is throughout the entire scriptures, in type, and in reality [Proverbs 40:7; Luke 24:27; John 1:45; John 5:39; Hebrews 10:7; Acts 3:18, 28:23 KJB, etc].

Jesus Christ, is the true person, Israel, the true Son of God the Father, who Matthew [under inspiration of the Holy Ghost], says was the fulfillment of the prophecy of Hosea. The New Testament passage explained the Old Testament passage. Who will say, “Not so.” unto the Holy Ghost? I warn, in love.

I did not say so, the scripture [KJB] itself, said so, for scripture interprets scripture [Genesis 40:8; 1 Corinthians 2:13; Isaiah 28:10,13 KJB, etc], and it is God who defines His own word.

What does "Israel" mean?

[Jim_Alaska 1,869]

While the prophecy in Hosea can no doubt find its fulfillment in Mat. 2:15, and can certainly be taught as a type of Jesus coming out of Egypt, to categorically state that Jesus is very Israel is absurd.

Please note that I did not question the Scripture. I am saying that your interpretation of the Scripture, where you try to make Jesus and Israel one and the same is absurd.

[DaveW 3,675]

I also did not question the Scripture, just the statement that Jesus IS Israel, which the Bible NEVER DOES SAY.

For someone who keeps saying that they only stand on the Bible, this guy spends a lot of time going beyond what the Bible actually says, saying nothing of outright denying the Bible on at least one occasion so far.

[EvangAlived 5]

2 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

While the prophecy in Hosea can no doubt find its fulfillment in Mat. 2:15, and can certainly be taught as a type of Jesus coming out of Egypt, to categorically state that Jesus is very Israel is absurd.

Please note that I did not question the Scripture. I am saying that your interpretation of the Scripture, where you try to make Jesus and Israel one and the same is absurd.

Matthew did not say a 'type'.  Matthew, under inspiration of the Holy Ghost clearly says that Hosea 11:1 ("Israel", which is God's (my) "son") was "fulfilled" in Jesus Christ:

Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Can't get around that brother.  You can 'say' it was 'fulfilled' in Moses and the peoples, but that is not what is stated by Matthew.

Paul stated that Moses and the peoples was merely the type in 1 Cor. 10.

1Co 10:6  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Jesus is the True Israel (the everlasting Covenant was made with Him in eternity, ratified at the cross and ascension, texts upon request), even as He is the True Adam, the True Levi, the True Solomon, the True David, the True Isaac, True Melchizedec; etc, etc.  Would you like texts for those too?

I do not say you question the scripture brother.  I say you are in disagreement with the Holy Ghost inspired Matthew.  I have to go with Matthew, and not anyone else.  The Bible is my final authority.

As for absurd, well that is your present opinion brother.

Jesus is throughout the entire scriptures, in type, and in reality [Proverbs 40:7; Luke 24:27; John 1:45; John 5:39; Hebrews 10:7; Acts 3:18, 28:23 KJB, etc].

2 hours ago, DaveW said:

I also did not question the Scripture, just the statement that Jesus IS Israel, which the Bible NEVER DOES SAY.

For someone who keeps saying that they only stand on the Bible, this guy spends a lot of time going beyond what the Bible actually says, saying nothing of outright denying the Bible on at least one occasion so far.

What does "Israel" mean brother DaveW?  Who overcame all things?  Who is the "Prince" with God?

Then see Revelation 3:21; Luke 11:22; John 16:33

Edited October 24, 2018 by EvangAlived

[DaveW 3,675]

Why would you expect us to accept your version of what the Bible says, when it DOESN'T say that, and when you refuse to answer when your false teaching is pointed out.

You still have made no answer to the Bible refuting your claim of the sacrifice and oblation ceasing in AD 31 - which it did not.

I have nothing to answer here because the Bible just doesn't say what you are saying. Jim's explanation is correct.

But you are proven to be a false teacher who disregards what the Bible says because your only appeal against the Bible showing your AD31 claim to be incorrect is that I "am not ready to receive it".

In other words, you are blaming me for not understanding that you are right when the Bible clearly shows you are wrong.

As it also does in this instance.

[EvangAlived 5]

2 hours ago, DaveW said:

I also did not question the Scripture, just the statement that Jesus IS Israel, which the Bible NEVER DOES SAY.

It so does say brother DaveW.  Right here.  Who is speaking?  Who inspired this text?

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

I know why you disagree.  It has nothing to do with Matthew or Hosea.

[DaveW 3,675]

We all know that in Hosea it is talking in the past tense which means that the primary application of the Hosea passage is to the Nation of Israel.

Further the passage in Matthew 2 which states it is the fulfillment of  Hosea says:

15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

Notice something missing from this verse?

Yep, that's right - the name "Israel" - because that part of the Hosea passage had already been fulfilled and was not relevant.

So now you misrepresent the Bible as well as members here.

And you still give us no reason to trust you.

You claim that I am either too stupid or too unspiritual to understand Dan 9 because I pointed out to you that your idea of AD31 being the end of the obligation and sacrifice is ANTI-BIBLICAL.

You refuse to answer that instead simply trying to belittle me.

Why should trust anything you say?

[Jim_Alaska 1,869]

After all we have seen from this person in just a very short time, it never ceases to astound me that people of his ilk that come here always put on the same show. That show is the act of being surprised that we do not allow anyone other than IFB to use the IFB section of these forums.

They burst on the scene as full blown teachers that are gong to straighten us all out. It is almost like someone walking into a strange church that they are not a member of and expecting to be able to just enter the pulpit and start preaching. Just a bit presumptuous in my mind.

The Apostle Paul spoke of and warned against just this sort of danger to the truth of God's Word:

 1Tim 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do. 
 5  Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned: 
 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 
 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm. 

[EvangAlived 5]

23 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

They burst on the scene as full blown teachers that are gong to straighten us all out. It is almost like someone walking into a strange church that they are not a member of and expecting to be able to just enter the pulpit and start preaching. Just a bit presumptuous in my mind.

Paul spoke of those messengers who would come to you, as prophets of old.

You are not rejecting me.

[EvangAlived 5]

12 hours ago, DaveW said:

We all know that in Hosea it is talking in the past tense which means that the primary application of the Hosea passage is to the Nation of Israel.

God is outside of time and sees all time.  He declares the end from the beginning.  To Him it is all, already "finished" even from the foundation of the world.

I asked you a question.

Who is speaking in Hosea 11:1?

Who did Matthew say was the "fulfilled" aspect of it?

Go to Hebrews 3:6,

Heb_3:6  But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Jer_31:31  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer_31:33  But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jesus is not only Israel, but also Judah (the Lion).

You say Matthew doesn't say Jesus is Israel.  He didn't have to.  He cited Hosea 11:1, whose context declares the very name (Jesus has many names) of the "son" who came out of Egypt.

Matthews state that Jesus is the real fulfilment, not Moses/Jacob of old.

You do not seem to understand who the Everlasting/Eternal (aka New) covenant was made with and 'when'.  It was made with the Son in eternity past, with Himself and the Father, witnessed by the Holy Ghost.

The Everlasting Covenant [New, which existed before the 'old', even from eternity, for the Father and Son clasped hands in agreement, the Holy Ghost as Witness, should [when] sin [the mystery of iniquity] arise, they would work out the plan of Redemption, thus it is “the everlasting covenant” or the covenant of life and peace, or the counsel of peace, ratified by the blood of the Son of God Himself and by the Father in Heaven, see Psalms 89:3,28,34, 105:8; Isaiah 13:12, 42:6; Malachi 2:5 [Jesus is the True Levi, meaning attached unto His Father], 3:1; John 19:30 [he finished laying the foundation, the words were unto His Father], 17:24 [the agreement in eternity past was made, Jesus kept His word, performed His vows, and now the promise from the Father was to be fulfilled]; John 3:16; John 19:28; Hebrews 13:20; Revelation 13:8; Psalms 40:7-8; Hebrews 10:7-9; Psalms 116:14-18; Ezekiel 38:23; John 17:19; John 10:18; 8:28; Psalms 110:4; Zechariah 6:13, etc., etc. for surely as the Rainbow is above God's throne, so the covenant between Father and Son, witnessed by the Holy Ghost, is eternal, KJB] is God's, “I will ...”, His Promise; more on this in detail later, as needed. The 'old covenant' is not the same as God's 'my covenant', which we establish by Faith [Romans 3:31 KJB]. They are two things, not one, which will be demonstrated in thorough detail later, as needed. God's Ten Commandments are all perfect promises, without fault, more on this later, as needed.]

It was 'ratified' by the blood of Christ Jesus, who fulfilled His vows, His side of the covenant.

Psa_116:14 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people.
Psa_116:18 I will pay my vows unto the LORD now in the presence of all his people,

It was 'ratified' by the Father after Christ Jesus ascended the first time, and accepted the Selfless Sacrifice of the Son.

Psa_61:5 For thou, O God, hast heard my vows: thou hast given me the heritage of those that fear thy name.

 

[EvangAlived 5]

13 hours ago, DaveW said:

You refuse to answer that instead simply trying to belittle me.

What does "Israel" mean brother DaveW?  Who overcame all things?  Who is the "Prince" with God?

Then see Revelation 3:21; Luke 11:22; John 16:33

Who is refusing to answer simple questions?

[Salyan 1,704]

16 hours ago, EvangAlived said:

Paul spoke of those messengers who would come to you, as prophets of old.

You are not rejecting me.

Wow. You think waaaaayyyyy too highly of yourself, IMO. You are only a man.  

16 hours ago, EvangAlived said:

Who is refusing to answer simple questions?

Really? Dave asked first.

 

Seriously, EvangAlived, we have no issue with non-IFBs who want to interact congenially and honestly (just ask Alimantado). But coming here just to preach at us is neither polite nor appreciated (and we've had a lot of it, so if we seem quick to react, it's from experience!).   The issues you are experiencing are not because this board is rejecting 'truth' (as you define it), or because we're a bunch of old fuddy-duddies, but because you are refusing to follow board rules (i.e. no flooding the board) and common courtesy in your interactions here. If you end up getting yourself banned, it will be a result of your own actions and choices (so don't leave and glory in your 'persecution'!) Such behavior is neither likely to get true results for eternity nor honor Christ.

[DaveW 3,675]

22 hours ago, EvangAlived said:

I asked you a question.

In the first place, you are the one defending a false argument not me - you need to actually answer what has been asked of you,  and secondly, you are only asking me questions to confuse the issue.

 

22 hours ago, EvangAlived said:

God is outside of time and sees all time.  He declares the end from the beginning.  To Him it is all, already "finished" even from the foundation of the world.

This is is an irrelevant argument that is designed to avoid the truth.

It has nothing to do with my statements except to avoid the fact that you are wrong.

Go back and look again at my answer to your false claim and answer the fact that the Bible NEVER says that Jesus IS Israel.

Then maybe we can address the new false information that you are trying to introduce, that the everlasting covenant was not given to the nation of Israel......

So now we have two separate false issues that you are teaching, that you are then basing whole doctrines on, but in both cases your basis is false and that means what you build on that false foundation has no BIBLICAL BASIS.

 

22 hours ago, EvangAlived said:

What does "Israel" mean brother DaveW?  Who overcame all things?  Who is the "Prince" with God?

Then see Revelation 3:21; Luke 11:22; John 16:33

Who is refusing to answer simple questions?

I am refusing to answer your questions because you are basing them on a FALSE PREMISE of your own making.

I am not answering your questions because they are designed to avoid the truth that you are a false teacher.

I am not answering your questions because you refuse to give us even the most basic information about your doctrinal bias and affiliation.

Jesus IS NOT ISRAEL according to the Bible.

[DaveW 3,675]

Oh yeah, I meant to add this too.

I care about what the Bible ACTUALLY SAYS, and in Matt 2:15 - incidentally the ONLY passage that you reference to say that Jesus is Israel - in Matt 2:15, where the Bible quotes the Hosea passage, the Bible leaves out the use of the name "Israel". This is significant in that we all know that Hosea is referencing the escape of the nation from Egypt.

Prophetically Hosea is referring to Jesus returning after his family flees Herod's attempt to kill Him, BUT, - and it is a very important but - the Matthew passage DOES NOT USE THE NAME "ISRAEL" WHEN SPEAKING OF THE FULFILLMENT of the prophecy.

Arguing about God being outside time is irrelevant - what is important is the words that are used in the Bible.

And it never says that Jesus IS Israel.