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Defining a PERFECT BIBLE


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The exact, specific words spoken by Paul and other apostles by means of the Holy Spirit and later written referred to those words that were written in the original languages (1 Cor. 2:13, 2 Pet. 1:21, 2 Pet. 3:16, 2 Pet. 3:2, John 17:8, Luke 18:31, Heb. 1:1-2).  The Lord Jesus Christ directly referred to “the things that are written by the prophets” (Luke 18:31), and the actual words directly written by the prophets themselves would have been in the original language in which God gave them by inspiration to the prophets.  The oracles of God [the Old Testament Scriptures] given to the prophets were committed unto the Jews in the Jews‘ language (Rom. 3:2, Matt. 5:17-18, Luke 16:17).  The specific features “jot“ and “tittle“ at Matthew 5:18 and the “tittle” at Luke 16:17 would indicate the particular original language words of the Scriptures given by inspiration of God to the prophets.  The actual, specific, exact words which the LORD of hosts sent in His Spirit by the prophets would be in the original language in which God gave them (Zech. 7:12).  Would not the actual words written by the prophet be in the same language in which he originally wrote them (Matt. 2:5, Luke 18:31)?  Would not the words spoken by the LORD by the prophets be in the language in which God gave them (2 Kings 21:10, 2 Kings 24:2)?  It would be sound to conclude that the actual words of the prophets themselves would be in the original language in which they were given (Acts 15:15).  The scriptures of the prophets (Rom. 15:26) would be in the language in which they were given to them.   The actual words of Haggai the prophet would be in the language in which he spoke or wrote them (Haggai 1:12).  The scroll of the LORD to be sought and read at the time that Isaiah the prophet wrote would have been a scroll written in Hebrew (Isa. 34:16).  The apostle John referred to his own actual words he himself was writing in the language in which he wrote them (1 John 2:12-14).  “Moses wrote all the words of the LORD” (Exod. 24:4). 

 

The Lord Jesus Christ stated:  “For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.  But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?” (John 5:46-47).  In another apparent reference to the writings of Moses, Jesus asked the Pharisees concerning whether they had not read them (Matt. 19:4, 7-8, Luke 10:26).  The actual writings of Moses referred to by Jesus would have to be in the original language in which Moses directly wrote them.  The word of the LORD by the hand of Moses (2 Chron. 35:6, Num. 4:45) would be in the original language in which Moses spoke or wrote it.  The LORD commanded by the hand of Moses (Lev. 8:36, Num. 4:37, Num. 15:23, Num. 27:23), and the LORD had spoken by the hand of Moses (Lev. 10:11).  When later Jewish scribes made a copy of the writings of Moses, they copied his same words in the same language in which Moses had originally wrote them.  Do these Scripture passages teach or at least clearly infer that the doctrine of preservation would concern the actual specific original-language words given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles?

 

     A sound understanding of some additional Bible truths would affirm or demonstrate that Bible preservation would have to concern the Scriptures in the original languages.  The scriptural truths (Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32, Prov. 30:6, Rev. 22:18-19) that warn against adding to and taking away from the Scriptures would clearly and directly relate to the doctrine of preservation and to the making of copies of the original-language Scriptures.  Concerning which specific words did God directly state these warnings and instructions?  These commands and instructions must embrace the Scriptures in the original languages since the very nature of translation requires that words may have to be added or omitted to make it understandable in another language.  Thus, these verses were important instructions and warnings given particularly and directly concerning the Scriptures in the original languages.  These verses could also be understood to suggest that God gave to men an important role or responsibility in preservation of the Scriptures on earth.  These commands or instructions would indicate the need and responsibility for the making of exact, accurate copies of the Scriptures in the original languages.  These commands or instructions also demonstrate that the source being copied was the standard and authority for evaluating the copy made from it.  These commands would also suggest that the copies of Scripture were not given or made by the means or process of a miracle of inspiration.  For when a king [or whoever] copied them, he would have needed to make an accurate, exact, and complete copy of them to be able to “keep all the words” (Deut. 17:18-19). 

 

     A copy of Scripture should have the exact, same words as the source from which it was copied, and it could be tested or evaluated by its source (Exod. 34:1, Deut. 10:2, 4, Deut. 17:18, Deut. 27:8, Jer. 36:28, John 17:8, Jer. 23:28).   Jesus gave the exact same words to the apostles or disciples that God the Father gave to Him (John 17:8, John 14:24, John 12:50). 

 

     Just as the source definitely had to be the correct standard, proper authority, and just measure or balance for evaluating the copy; likewise, the words in the preserved original language sources would have to be the proper standard and greater authority for evaluating the different words in a translation made from them (Rom. 11:18, Prov. 16:11, Deut. 16:20, Job 14:4, Deut. 25:13-15, Lev. 19:35-36, Ezek. 45:10, Matt. 7:17, Prov. 11:1, Micah 6:11).  Do the Scriptures themselves provide examples that would show that original-language words would be the authority, source, and standard for translated words that translate, interpret, or give the meaning in another language (Matt. 1:23, Mark 5:41, Mark 15:22, Mark 15:34, John 1:41, Acts 4:36)?  Appeals to what was written by a prophet or by the prophets would be an acknowledgement of the authority and standard of the original-language words of Scripture (Matt. 2:5, Luke 18:31, John 5:47).  Unless the preserved Scriptures in the original languages are the authority, norm, and standard for Bible translations, there would be no sound, true criteria for distinguishing between a good, accurate translation and a poor, inaccurate translation.  Would not the original-language Scriptures given by inspiration of God and preserved by God be profitable for correction of any errors made or introduced by imperfect men in translating and in printing? 

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I do not consider applying scriptural truths soundly and justly straining at a gnat.   Advocating scriptural truths is not being a blind guide.

Luke 16:10

He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much:  and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.

Edited by Tyndale
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It is obvious you don't consider it so, but Jesus certainly did. I firmly believe that the words preserved for me in the Bible were the mechanism that brought me to Christ.

Romans 10:17 (KJV) So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

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It should be obvious that I actually accept and believe what the Scriptures themselves state and teach about preservation.   I believe what the Lord Jesus Christ taught concerning the Scriptures.  I properly and soundly explain what I mean by preservation while many seem to be unclear in what they mean by preserve or they do not define the term or do not use it with the same exact meaning.  My statements were clearly based on what the Scriptures state and teach.

 Exact word preservation would mean that the actual exact same original-language words given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles would be the words that had to be preserved.   Different words in a different language would not preserve the exact same words as was given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles.

Any suggestion that the words in the KJV preserve the original-language Scriptures would have to refer to some type "meaning" preservation since the KJV does not actually have the exact same words as were given by inspiration to the prophets and apostles.    Sometimes the KJV may give a dynamic equivalent meaning instead of a literal word-for-word meaning.    Those who use the term preservation to refer to the KJV do not demonstrate that they are actually soundly teaching what the Scriptures teach about the preservation of what God gave by inspiration to the prophets and apostles.  

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8 hours ago, Tyndale said:

Exact word preservation would mean that the actual exact same original-language words given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles would be the words that had to be preserved.   Different words in a different language would not preserve the exact same words as was given by inspiration of God to the prophets and apostles. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Actually, this is a precisely correct statement.  

Do we believe in the doctrine of preservation?  I believe that we would declare - YES!!!  So then, what are the precise details of the doctrine of preservation as taught by God's Own Word?  Indeed, what precisely does God's Own Word promise to preserve?  Does God's Own Word promise to preserve the inspired Scriptures in a "jot and tittle" manner?  Does God's Own Word promise to preserve the inspired Scriptures through translations?  Does God's Own Word promise to preserve the inspired Scriptures in all languages of the world?  Does God's Own Word promise to preserve the inspired Scriptures in any particular language or languages?  

Now, if we are to answer these questions correctly, we must provide the answers from God's Own Word on the matter.

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11 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, this is a precisely correct statement.  

Do we believe in the doctrine of preservation?  I believe that we would declare - YES!!!  So then, what are the precise details of the doctrine of preservation as taught by God's Own Word?  Indeed, what precisely does God's Own Word promise to preserve?  Does God's Own Word promise to preserve the inspired Scriptures in a "jot and tittle" manner?  Does God's Own Word promise to preserve the inspired Scriptures through translations?  Does God's Own Word promise to preserve the inspired Scriptures in all languages of the world?  Does God's Own Word promise to preserve the inspired Scriptures in any particular language or languages?  

Now, if we are to answer these questions correctly, we must provide the answers from God's Own Word on the matter.

These are really solid questions for people to think through. 

Edited by Jordan Kurecki
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I heard someone say this years ago,
and it is still just as truthful today, as it was then.
"The Bible that I hold in my hand, is God's infallible word."

 

Now, it is not hard to find scriptural support for this statement.
Just choose any of the verses in Psalms 119.

 

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13 hours ago, Donald said:

I heard someone say this years ago,
and it is still just as truthful today, as it was then.
"The Bible that I hold in my hand, is God's infallible word."

 

Now, it is not hard to find scriptural support for this statement.
Just choose any of the verses in Psalms 119.

 

To play devils advocate here 

I know one Ugandan language that has a Bible that is missing the comma in 1st John 5:7.

Can that Ugandan use Psalm 119 as proof that the bible he holds in his hand is infallible? 

What about the many other language translations that are also missing 1 John 5:7?

You have two options here

1. Admit that God failed to keep his promises in Psalm 119 that everyone would have a perfect translation of the scriptures

2. Re-examine what Gods promises about his word really are. Pastor Markle gave some excellent questions to think through earlier in this thread. 

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H. D. Williams asserted:  “Translations of the Words of God are words that have been ’tooled’ by men [Exod. 20:25, Deut. 27:5].  Words declared pure by God in the received Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts, which were made available throughout the generations of men for translations, have not been ’tooled’ by man (2 Pet. 1:19-21)” (The Pure Words of God, pp. 29-30).  Williams claimed:  “If we attribute purity and inspiration to the translated Words of God in any language, we are in reality claiming double inspiration, double purity, and double Apostolic or prophet-like men who chose them and who wrote them” (p. 63).

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On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2020 at 12:54 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

  Does God's Own Word promise to preserve the inspired Scriptures through translations? 

No, I do not find any scriptures where God clearly promised to preserve the inspired Scriptures through Bible translations made after the end of the giving of the New Testament?

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What the LORD asserts in Psalms 119 (as well as all over God's Word), is that He has "given us", His Word, so that we can know the TRUTH about Him and how to know Him better.

THE "workings" of this marvellous interaction, between "a believer & God's Word", goes beyond the printed words on a page. Because "we have the actual author of the original autographs", in our hearts. And as we STUDY God's Word, the Holy Spirit reveals the TRUTH to us, at the Spiritual level that we are at.

Therefore, as we STUDY God's Word DEEPER,
(1)by Simply meditating on the words in our Bibles, or
(2)going even deeper, by comparing what the original languages have to say, and revealing all the wrangling that has taken place, in order for is to have God's Word in our language...

....What is happening goes beyond, questioning God's ability to preserve his word for us.

 

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Disagreeing with human, non-scriptural KJV-only reasoning is not actually questioning God's ability to preserve His word for us.

I believe what the Scriptures state and teach about their preservation.   It has not been soundly demonstrated that I question God's ability to preserve His word for us.

Where do the Scriptures say or teach that the word of God is bound to the textual-criticism decisions, Bible-revision decisions, and translation decisions of one exclusive group of Church of England priests/scholars in 1611?

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On 6/17/2020 at 9:47 AM, Tyndale said:

No, I do not find any scriptures where God clearly promised to preserve the inspired Scriptures through Bible translations made after the end of the giving of the New Testament?

So then, those who DO believe that God has preserved His Holy Word in and through a given translation need to provide Scriptural support that the Lord our God did indeed promise to preserve His Word through translations.  If this can be done, then a given translation may be presented as fulfilling this divine promise (if it fulfills the Biblical requirements for such).  However, if this cannot be done, then claiming such for any given translation goes beyond the specific doctrine that is taught in God's Holy Word concerning preservation.

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