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Thief on the Cross

What would you do?

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Well I guess there are differing opinions on how an unbeliever should be treated .  I guess we will all have to answer to the Lord for what we do.   

Also another thing that I wonder is are we supposed to be erecting large buildings to hold our meetings in.  Is this building the "house of God"?  Or are we the house of God.   Is God dwelling there if we are not?     Why do we put up signs, with service times,  special events and such.   Or do you have "everyone welcone" .  Is it true?    What I believe reflects how I treat unbelievers, because I was one.  

We had a man who would come in stinking of alcohol,  he was not disruptive,   but he stunk.   We were happy he was there.   He heard the gospel many times over a few months.   We bring a boy often , who also smells badly .   We pick him up and need to put the windows down he smells so awful.    His parents couldnt care less.    He never bathes or has clothing washed.   We have washed his clothing a few times  when we brought him home and given him clothing, but they quickly become like the rest, as he never takes them off.     We believe we are doing the right thing bringing him to church or including him in activities.    This would also be considered poor behavior.    Why are certain things ok or acceptable so they can be reached and not others.      I would never say to him he cant attend unless he cleans himself up first.   He doesn't know any better .    I also believe the same of the Lady who attends in what she believes is a nice outfit.   

 

 

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Thief on the Cross said:

Well I guess there are differing opinions on how an unbeliever should be treated .  I guess we will all have to answer to the Lord for what we do.   

Also another thing that I wonder is are we supposed to be erecting large buildings to hold our meetings in.  Is this building the "house of God"?  Or are we the house of God.   Is God dwelling there if we are not?     Why do we put up signs, with service times,  special events and such.   Or do you have "everyone welcone" .  Is it true?    What I believe reflects how I treat unbelievers, because I was one.  

We had a man who would come in stinking of alcohol,  he was not disruptive,   but he stunk.   We were happy he was there.   He heard the gospel many times over a few months.   We bring a boy often , who also smells badly .   We pick him up and need to put the windows down he smells so awful.    His parents couldnt care less.    He never bathes or has clothing washed.   We have washed his clothing a few times  when we brought him home and given him clothing, but they quickly become like the rest, as he never takes them off.     We believe we are doing the right thing bringing him to church or including him in activities.    This would also be considered poor behavior.    Why are certain things ok or acceptable so they can be reached and not others.      I would never say to him he cant attend unless he cleans himself up first.   He doesn't know any better .    I also believe the same of the Lady who attends in what she believes is a nice outfit.   

Sister,

Please understand that I myself do NOT stand in complete agreement with Brother Stafford on this matter.  Nevertheless, I would recognize that your comparative examples above are something like comparing "apples to cucumbers."  Smelling badly is NOT a moral issue.  Dressing immodestly (toward that which God's Word defines as "nakedness") IS a moral issue.  The two issues are NOT an equivalent comparison.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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3 minutes ago, Thief on the Cross said:

Well I guess there are differing opinions on how an unbeliever should be treated .

No, I believe we all agree that an unbeliever  should be treated with as much dignity and respect as anyone else.  With regard to our subject of modesty in church, we can uphold standards without treating people poorly.

We had a man who would come in stinking of alcohol,  he was not disruptive, but he stunk.   We were happy he was there.   He heard the gospel many times over a few months.   We bring a boy often , who also smells badly .   We pick him up and need to put the windows down he smells so awful.    His parents couldnt care less.    He never bathes or has clothing washed.   We have washed his clothing a few times  when we brought him home and given him clothing, but they quickly become like the rest, as he never takes them off.     We believe we are doing the right thing bringing him to church or including him in activities.    This would also be considered poor behavior.    Why are certain things ok or acceptable so they can be reached and not others.      I would never say to him he cant attend unless he cleans himself up first.      

I agree with how your church is welcoming them, helping them and sharing the Gospel with them.   You mentioned that they are dirty, but made no mention of them being dressed immodestly.  One can be dirty and dressed modestly at the same time.

He doesn't know any better.  I also believe the same of the Lady who attends in what she believes is a nice outfit.   

It is true that many women, adult or youngsters, do not understand what appropriate clothing is.  That is why we teach them.

 

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7 minutes ago, Thief on the Cross said:

Well I guess there are differing opinions on how an unbeliever should be treated .  I guess we will all have to answer to the Lord for what we do.   

Also another thing that I wonder is are we supposed to be erecting large buildings to hold our meetings in.  Is this building the "house of God"?  Or are we the house of God.   Is God dwelling there if we are not?     Why do we put up signs, with service times,  special events and such.   Or do you have "everyone welcone" .  Is it true?    What I believe reflects how I treat unbelievers, because I was one.  

We had a man who would come in stinking of alcohol,  he was not disruptive,   but he stunk.   We were happy he was there.   He heard the gospel many times over a few months.   We bring a boy often , who also smells badly .   We pick him up and need to put the windows down he smells so awful.    His parents couldnt care less.    He never bathes or has clothing washed.   We have washed his clothing a few times  when we brought him home and given him clothing, but they quickly become like the rest, as he never takes them off.     We believe we are doing the right thing bringing him to church or including him in activities.    This would also be considered poor behavior.    Why are certain things ok or acceptable so they can be reached and not others.      I would never say to him he cant attend unless he cleans himself up first.   He doesn't know any better .    I also believe the same of the Lady who attends in what she believes is a nice outfit.   

 

 

 

 

 

Don't stop doing what you're doing. You know, this very thing turned my son off from the last church he was a member of. My son was in charge of the bus ministry at his IFB church and had begun bringing some kids like that. But one day his pastor called him aside to tell him, during "fellowship", to have these kids sit in a separate room and bring them takeout plates AFTER everyone else had gone through the line. When my son later went to him to question him about this, the pastor began a progression of retaliation towards my son and ended up taking  him off the bus ministry. THAT is the "Behavior" which "stinks" in the nostrils of God.

James 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

Continue treating your lady visitor, and the rest, like honored guests. It is LOVE that draws people to Christ.

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6 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Don't stop doing what you're doing. You know, this very thing turned my son off from the last church he was a member of. My son was in charge of the bus ministry at his IFB church and had begun bringing some kids like that. But one day his pastor called him aside to tell him, during "fellowship", to have these kids sit in a separate room and bring them takeout plates AFTER everyone else had gone through the line. When my son later went to him to question him about this, the pastor began a progression of retaliation towards my son and ended up taking  him off the bus ministry. THAT is the "Behavior" which "stinks" in the nostrils of God.

James 2:3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:

Continue treating your lady visitor, and the rest, like honored guests. It is LOVE that draws people to Christ.

Amen, and AMEN!!!!!

My comment above was NOT intended at all to discourage, only to explain.

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15 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

2.  1 Timothy 2:9-10 -- "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works."  

Seems some have ripped this page from their bible and replaced it with being haughty.

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10 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

Seems some have ripped this page from their bible and replaced it with being haughty.

I believe that 1 Timothy 2:9-10 is being addressed to believers. Maybe I'm wrong. I've seen church ladies and preacher's daughters, in an IFB church, come in the house of God with cleavage displayed  and "slits" way up their thighs and nothing was ever said about it from the pulpit  That verse should be preached from the pulpit along with verses to the men. IE  "men shouldn't look.....ladies shouldn't solicit looks". Also, back in the Sunday School rooms, Godly ladies should be teaching all the younger lady-believers how to dress and behave, while Godly men teach men how to dress and behave. When all the church folk are doing right, the visitors will stand out like a sore thumb. I mean, guys, how would you feel when you walk in in casuals and everyone else is dressed in three piece suits? A little out of place huh? It's probably an even bigger deal when a woman wearing revealing clothes walks in and everyone else is dressed modestly. Just that is a huge statement to the visitor without having to say a word.

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9 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

I believe that 1 Timothy 2:9-10 is being addressed to believers. Maybe I'm wrong. I've seen church ladies and preacher's daughters, in an IFB church, come in the house of God with cleavage displayed  and "slits" way up their thighs and nothing was ever said about it from the pulpit  That verse should be preached from the pulpit along with verses to the men. IE  "men shouldn't look.....ladies shouldn't solicit looks". Also, back in the Sunday School rooms, Godly ladies should be teaching all the younger lady-believers how to dress and behave, while Godly men teach men how to dress and behave. When all the church folk are doing right, the visitors will stand out like a sore thumb. I mean, guys, how would you feel when you walk in in casuals and everyone else is dressed in three piece suits? A little out of place huh? It's probably an even bigger deal when a woman wearing revealing clothes walks in and everyone else is dressed modestly. Just that is a huge statement to the visitor without having to say a word.

Indeed, one of the ways in which the light is able to reveal and reprove the darkness is simply by shining faithfully. (See Ephesians 5:8-13)

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5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister,

Please understand that I myself do NOT stand in complete agreement with Brother Stafford on this matter.  Nevertheless, I would recognize that your comparative examples above are something like comparing "apples to cucumbers."  Smelling badly is NOT a moral issue.  Dressing immodestly (toward that which God's Word defines as "nakedness") IS a moral issue.  The two issues are NOT an equivalent comparison.

Sorry I realize they were not the best examples.  The man I mentioned it was the alcohol smell , meaning he had been drinking and recently before service, by the strong odor.  The boy I mention , because of the discussion of proper church behavior.   But yes a smell is not the same.   

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5 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Seems some have ripped this page from their bible and replaced it with being haughty.

Im not sure if this is directed at me , but I apologize if I came across that way.   Its difficult in a venue where body language and voice inflections are not heard.   Its like when we deal with the deaf.   Just making the signs is often not enough for them to understand,  body language and facial expressions help to get a full meaning.  

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19 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Sarcastic comments such as this are unbecoming to Christians. I, for one, can do without them and would encourage your future comments written in a godly manner. 

I would admonish all participants of this thread to check their spirits and attitudes. 

Even if your position and stance are right, that does not give an excuse for a proud, arrogant, or condescending attitude. 

I find it interesting how someone can get so upset and treat others so harshly for their views about modesty and treating visitors, yet could at the same time be so very harsh to other children of God. 

there is a passage that comes to my mind: 

Matthew 7

1  Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2  For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3  And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4  Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5  Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

NOTE I did not highlight vs 1, that is how the copy and paste came out.

 

Edited by Jordan Kurecki

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1 hour ago, Thief on the Cross said:

Im not sure if this is directed at me , but I apologize if I came across that way.   Its difficult in a venue where body language and voice inflections are not heard.   Its like when we deal with the deaf.   Just making the signs is often not enough for them to understand,  body language and facial expressions help to get a full meaning.  

Sister, I am not Brother "Swathdiver" and do not claim to speak on his behalf; however, having followed each part of this thread discussion, I do NOT believe that this comment was directed against you.

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31 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

Like many people, I read a proverb every day.  Today's is interesting:

"As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion." (Proverbs 11:22)

I do not disagree with the Word of God.  But not what I would quote to an unsaved woman who happened to walk in to a service.   😁😁.  

Here is another good one from today.

"When pride cometh, then cometh shame, but with the lowly is wisdom. (Proverb 11: 2)

I need wisdom when dealing with the unsaved .  Just like the woman that first invited me to church.  She new my biggest issue was not undress , but unbelief.  

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I could be wrong, but I don't think the word "discretion" in that verse is referring specifically to a woman's clothing (or lack thereof).

The word "discretion" as defined in the 1600s...

From Robert Cawdrey's "A Table Alphabeticall"...

https://extra.shu.ac.uk/emls/iemls/work/etexts/caw1604w_removed.htm#d

Quote

discretion, wise choise of one from another

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33 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I could be wrong, but I don't think the word "discretion" in that verse is referring specifically to a woman's clothing (or lack thereof).

The word "discretion" as defined in the 1600s...

From Robert Cawdrey's "A Table Alphabeticall"...

https://extra.shu.ac.uk/emls/iemls/work/etexts/caw1604w_removed.htm#d

My answer was in keeping with the original post and discussion.   I do not understand the point of the proverb being posted in any other context.    If it was not directed at the woman of the OP , I dont see the point othervthan to cause contention,    im to sick and tired (literally) to go around in circles .   I was hoping to have civil discussion and fellowship on this site as Im shut in quite alot.   I dont think this is the place for me.   

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Yes, that is a good verse. And NoNi, you'r right. It has nothing to do with clothing (but I don't think that was the thought behind the posting anyway 😉)

Thief, Proverbs 11:22 is an excellent verse that does apply to your OP.  How would I apply it? I would say that it applies in the manner in which an unsaved (or even newly saved) woman is treated when she comes to church.  Wise choices (discretion) would mean loving the visitor, befriending her, and once saved, discipling her; teaching her to love the Savior, His Word, and His church. Modesty in dress would be part of that, but would not be the complete focus.  (for women...men, you take other men under your wing, not women 😜 )

I would also like to address the idea that was raised about a woman coming in to church in a bikini...I strongly disagree that the men of the church would be horrid sinners with no self control if they looked (and looked again) at the woman. (the children as well - because I guarantee the kids would gawk) Why do I say that? Because any woman who wears a bikini into church is doing it FOR ATTENTION. Even in this day and age of people putting on as little clothing as possible, people know better than to wear a bikini to church (even the lost...and, really, very often the lost are MORE concerned with how they dress for church). A woman who wears a bikini to church is doing it as a poke in the eye to the members of that church. Some might argue that, but I know I'm correct (husbands, ask your wives what they think about it...I bet they'd agree with me. Because we're women and we know how women think...).  (men coming in spandex might just be men who don't think...I know someone who came to work in a public library dressed in his biking shorts...gross...he didn't do it a second time, because the boss told him not to. But he didn't see anything wrong with it. In all my years at the library - 17 - no woman ever came in in her bikini [without being modestly covered, let me qualify]. His employer can tell him not to do that. But should a church forbid him entrance unless he changes clothes? I'm not sold on that...but on the bikini? Yes, I think I am...)

As was pointed out, modesty is a moral issue. It is an important principle to learn, to understand, and to teach. But the lost are not children of God. They have not the Spirit, and so they will only dress as they were taught to do in the home and as their associates do around them, unless they ask someone at church. Discretion - wise choices in every area, including how we speak to the lost. The lack thereof in a woman is like putting jewelry in a pig's nose. My Dad raised pigs. He loved those piggies. But he NEVER put jewelry in their snouts because that would be ludicrous.  

MEN need to be discrete as well. Proverbs 2 deals with that. Wise choices. In how we deal with the lost. With the newly saved. With those who've been saved a long time. With fellow forum members.

Here is a great scripture for discretion in our words, for everyone: "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth [no choices here...no means none], but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. And grieve not the holy Spirit of God..."

Folks, let's practice that discretion, yes? Don't post inflammatory things simply to hammer your opinions into someone's head. Let's not post snarky comments directed personally at people with whom we have a disagreement. And let's most definitely not use scripture to try and shame someone. Let's let the Holy Spirit do His work and mold us the way HE desires.

@Thief on the Cross - I sure hope you don't leave. Sadly, things like clothing incite a lot of emotions that aren't always very well handled. Sometimes it's zealousness, so if we can remember that, mayhap it would be easier to "handle." One thing that I think is good: I think it's a truth that the folks on this site love the Lord and wish to see people saved. Sometimes we just differ in how we go about it.

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3 hours ago, Thief on the Cross said:

My answer was in keeping with the original post and discussion.   I do not understand the point of the proverb being posted in any other context.    If it was not directed at the woman of the OP , I dont see the point othervthan to cause contention,    im to sick and tired (literally) to go around in circles .   I was hoping to have civil discussion and fellowship on this site as Im shut in quite alot.   I dont think this is the place for me.   

I certainly meant no disrespect, nor did I mean it to be a jab at anyone.  I was just sharing a bit of scripture that I thought fit.  I apologize if it was the wrong thing to do. 

Please, stay with us.  This really is a helpful place.

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10 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

I certainly meant no disrespect, nor did I mean it to be a jab at anyone.  I was just sharing a bit of scripture that I thought fit.  I apologize if it was the wrong thing to do. 

Please, stay with us.  This really is a helpful place.

Thank you for clarifying, Bro. S. I'm glad it wasn't meant as a jab. Sharing the scripture was not the wrong thing to do, at all! Sometimes, though, when emotions have become involved, things can be taken in a way not intended. No fault on either side, it just happens.

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