What would you do?

[HappyChristian]

2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Agreed, and it is partially my fault.  For that I do apologize, and I shall refrain from adding anything further in this thread discussion to the "rabbit trail."

I honestly don't mind the discussion. We've had it many times here, but each time I learn something new. Mayhap starting another thread would be the answer?

[Jim_Alaska]

I find it interesting that this thread has taken the direction it has. The Op was in regard to a lost woman wearing inappropriate clothing to church. I has now taken a turn for the wearing of suits and ties for members and leaders.

While not strictly off topic, I would still contend for my original reply above that said in effect, "she is lost and we can't, or shouldn't dictate to a visitor how she should dress."

Which is more important for the ministry of our church, what a visitor wears, or the fact that their very attendance might have a saving, life changing influence, resulting in proper Christian qualities?

[Saved41199]

If a lost person shows up at church, they should be shown the love of Christ, not slammed for their clothing...they're lost, they don't know any better. Perhaps instead of singling out that person or immediately talking trash about their wardrobe, maybe have a member of the congregation reach out to them in love and disciple them. 

No, I no longer wear pants most of the time, I wear dresses and skirts. BUT...if I had walked into a church wearing jeans and a t-shirt and was immediately run off, whatever spark of faith I had would have been quenched and I would have had my opinion of Christians reinforced. 

DO not be a stumbling block to these searchers...if they show up at church, their hearts are tender towards the Lord. Foster that, nurture that. In discipling them, they can learn the other standards. 

Remember, Jesus didn't toss anyone out for their clothing (or lack thereof)...why should we be any different? 

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[Salyan]

6 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

I don't think anyone in this thread has suggested that we "slam" or "talk trash" about anyone.  Kindly addressing something is a far cry from talking trash.

She's explaining it from the point of view of the visitor, and she's right. To walk up to a first time, possibly unsaved visitor and tell them that they have to change their clothing to visit the building/service, no matter how 'kindly' meant, is just plain rude.  (And kind intentions are no excuse for rude behavior.) The visitor will feel humiliated and unwelcome.  

 

Mod Post: I feel that we're beginning to run around in circles on this. Thief, has your question been answered?  If so, I'd encourage you to consider closing this conversation. If not, by all means, continue. 

[Saved41199]

1 hour ago, Salyan said:

She's explaining it from the point of view of the visitor, and she's right. To walk up to a first time, possibly unsaved visitor and tell them that they have to change their clothing to visit the building/service, no matter how 'kindly' meant, is just plain rude.  (And kind intentions are no excuse for rude behavior.) The visitor will feel humiliated and unwelcome.  

Exactly. I know if I had been spoken to about my clothing the first time I set foot in a church, I'd have never returned. In my pre-IFB days, my primary wardrobe was jeans, concert t-shirts or tank tops and tennis shoes. If I had gone into a church and someone decided to pick on my wardrobe rather than being happy I was at least there, well...my mouth would have gotten the best of me and I'd have never returned. It would have also reinforced the idea I had that Christianity was some exclusive club that only took those who walked, talked, lived a certain way. Fortunately, we were blessed to find a church that did not look down on us because of our situation (pretty much dirt poor and on welfare). We were immediately surrounded by love...and that is what made the difference. 

So, the next time someone shows up at church in raggedy clothing or revealing clothing, understand, they don't know any better and it's not YOUR job to point that out in their first visit. Love them, pray for and with them, and let GOD do what He's good at. Years ago there was a t-shirt that was very popular among the Christian crowd. It said "Fisher of men, I catch them, HE cleans them". There's a lot of profound wisdom in that short, pithy saying. 

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[Saved41199]

15 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

Just out of curiosity, since I;m assuming that you wouldn't allow someone to come in to your church wearing, to the extreme, as little as a bikini, where would you draw the line to where you would speak to them?  

I live in Las Vegas...there are times when you're happy with the bare legal minimum (which ain't much in Sin City). 

In terms of "allowing"...it ain't your church, it ain't my church, it's God's church. 

Now...quit it. 

[Thief on the Cross]

I have been reading through all the comments and finding them interesting.

  I am still after several years attending an IFB church ,( which I love for the most part) trying to figure out some of the practices.   The dress code has always been one .  You see I attened 2 different churches prior, well actually 3.  The church I was saved in I only attened 3 times as I moved , it was a sovereign grace baptist.    I attened in jeans , no one looked at me differently,  believe me I was looking for it.     After that attended community church and then fellowship baptist.  What I don't undrrstand is why I was never convicted of the Lord or by any church member all 9 yrs about my clothing.   It was never ever mentioned , preached or talked about,  it was a non issue.    When first saved I read and read every spare moment the bible, its all I wanted to do.   You would think the spirit would have convicted me in that time.     It wasn't until attending the IFB that I had ever heard of such a thing , except for cults like Amish or Mennonite.       What I was convicted of though were my thoughts.   I did not want to dress any longer to appear attractive to the opposite sex or to make other women jealous.      Never did that equate to never wearing pants.      Never all those years prior did I ever look at someones outward appearance and judge whether or not I think them to be saved or sanctified.    I hear this alot where I attend, that people can tell your different by the way you dress.    I will be brutally honest here.    I REALLY dont get it.   The preoccupation of clothing with the IFB , the ties the skirts and dresses ,  the whole dressing for the Lord.    Some of the best times with the Lord Im in my PJs.     I find it to be a burden , that has brought me to tears some Sunday mornings as I look for something to wear that won't draw LOOKS in my direction.     I have never felt the pleasure of the Lord in my spirit by anything I have put on my flesh.  

I am concerned for my son with this issue,  I dont want him to be preoccupied with this.  I dont ever want him to look at a person and make a judgement about them by their outward appearance.     I have had to rebuke him several times.   Once he pointed out a man on the road with tattoos and mentioned "how ungodly "  that man is.   It broke my heart.     There are so many wonderful things about our church , but the clothing , outward appearance issues IMO is not one of them.    I sincerely hope I am not offending anyone,  that is not my intention.  Im just speaking from where Im seeing things.  

 

[Salyan]

No, that's a very fair assessment. Honestly, speaking as a person who does tend to judge outward appearances (although I know I shouldn't), I wish I had your disregard for them!  My observance is that the churches, like people, tend to swing to one of two opposite extremes - either the liberal or the legalistic. Either clothes don't matter at all, or they matter too much.

There are several guidelines I think we can defend Biblically.  You made mention of a couple of them in your testimony above.

1. Modest Apparel (1 Tim. 2:9)  This includes
     A. Covering the body appropriately. 
           This principle was set in place by God Himself in clothing Adam & Eve after the fall. There isn't as much clear definition in Scripture as I'd like to have defining modesty, for sure. I like Isaiah 47:2-3 for a (somewhat lopsided) definition. 
    B. Not dressing out of pride or ostentation (gold & pearls & costly array)

2. Not dressing like the opposite gender (Deut. 2:5)
     Much as I would love this verse to apply to all forms of pants -  I really don't think pants are modest at all, unless you're skiing or trapeze walking - I honestly don't believe we can apply it so in this generation. Three generations ago, sure. 

3. Not causing our brother to stumble (Rom. 14:13, 21)
    I think this, here, ought to cause us ladies to watch our clothing. Men are absolutely responsible for their own thoughts, and this must not be corrupted to blame women for men's sins, but if we really care for our brothers, wouldn't we want to give them a break  from everything this world throws at them?

There's one more guideline that I live by, but I'm not sure if it's quite so much a Biblical guideline so much as a cultural one. And that is that in this culture, we wear out best when going to important places or to meet important people. Different people, depending on their background, or current circumstances, may have widely varied levels of 'best', but the point is that they are being respectful and honoring God by dressing up. (this is constrained by the Biblical principles, of course - I have a fancy dress for concerts that would be too ostentatious for church.)

Edited to add: I do absolutely believe that churches and camps, like any other organization, have the right to set dress standards for their workers. If people don't wish to submit to the standards, they are free to not assist in that area. This isn't the same as simply attending. 

[Saved41199]

What disturbs me greatly here is the idea of "my church" or "your church". The church does not belong to men...It belongs to Christ. 

A person can wear the "right" clothes, say the "right" things and still have a heart blacker than the night. Yet, that person would be welcomed and accepted in IFB-world over someone who isn't wearing the "right" clothes or saying the "right" things, yet DOES the things that Jesus tells us to do "love one another as I have loved you". 

We, as people, cannot judge hearts. So what if someone shows up in a bikini or speedos? Shouldn't you just thank God that they came to church to hear the Gospel? 

Give it a rest folks...clothing is the LEAST of things we should worry about...

[Jordan Kurecki]

13 minutes ago, Saved41199 said:

What disturbs me greatly here is the idea of "my church" or "your church". The church does not belong to men...It belongs to Christ. 

A person can wear the "right" clothes, say the "right" things and still have a heart blacker than the night. Yet, that person would be welcomed and accepted in IFB-world over someone who isn't wearing the "right" clothes or saying the "right" things, yet DOES the things that Jesus tells us to do "love one another as I have loved you". 

We, as people, cannot judge hearts. So what if someone shows up in a bikini or speedos? Shouldn't you just thank God that they came to church to hear the Gospel? 

Give it a rest folks...clothing is the LEAST of things we should worry about...

Well to be fair, saying "my church" doesn't necessarily imply the idea of ownership it actually also contains the idea of belonging to something or associations with something. for example, if I say "my school" it doesn't mean I own it, it means I belong to it, that I have membership. Consider similar phrase "my country" or "my nation" "my tribe" etc. 

Yes the church belongs to Jesus Christ, but honestly how many people who say "my church" actually mean that they think it belongs to them. 

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[Saved41199]

3 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

While I admire your zeal for reaching the lost, what about the saved?  Men have to constantly guard their eyes and thoughts because of the carelessness of immodest women in the world. 

Ummm....nope. Men need to learn SELF-CONTROL. Seriously. My husband can walk down the Strip and not have a single untoward reaction to any of the lovely ladies hanging out. Men can control their own thoughts. Now, do you think women aren't affected visually? I mean, I'm old, not dead. Yet, I can look at a nice-looking man and not think about anything other than..."gee, nice looking guy". 

I'm sick and tired of men blaming women for their lack of self control. I would point you to Galatians 5:22-23 

²² But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

²³ Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

You do know what "temperance" is, right? It's self-control. 

3 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

If a member is struggling with porn addiction, for example, allowing immodestly dressed people into the church would be incredibly cruel to that member.  Cannot they at least have the expectation of a sanctuary when gathering with others to worship God?

Gee...there's that self-control thing again. It is entirely possible to go through life without being tempted by pornography, need some sort of blocking software or controls on your computer. My husband has done it for at least 21 years. 

 

3 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

Guests should also be able to experience an atmosphere where sexual temptations are eliminated as much as possible.  Immodestly dressed members, or other immodestly dressed guests, can provide a very strong distraction and interfere with them hearing the Gospel being presented. Requiring appropriate clothing from both guests and members is for the benefit of both the guests and members.

No, Christians should be able to develop self-control. Get over it. Women have curves and bumps. Men have certain attributes. That's the way God made us. If it makes you get utterly hormonally irrational, then YOU have the problem. Not me. My husband traveled the world in the Navy. I'm sure he saw all sorts of sights...yet, know what makes him more of a man? SELF-CONTROL. Yes, he went to bars, topless bars...and didn't lose his marbles in them. He came home to me. There has been no pornography in my house for 20+ years. Why? Because he is not interested in other women. Why? SELF-CONTROL. 

Don't blame women for your inability to control your own thoughts. You're not an animal, driven by hormonal lusts. 

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