What would you do?

[Salyan]

7 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

I think that not only can and should we have standards of dress in our churches, but that we most definitely do.  I don't believe that there is anyone here that would agree to allow a woman into their church wearing a bikini or a man wearing a speedo; even if it was a church built on a beach.  They would most certainly be spoken to and asked to leave and come back wearing more appropriate clothing.  It is because so many churches have relaxed their expectations of attire that so many people in the world no longer know what is appropriate attire for church; they need to be taught. 

Here's a thought stemming from this point. It's a little bit 'culturally defined', but bear with me. 

The culture at large has a certain sense of 'appropriate dress' or behavior. It varies by location, and definitely isn't up to Biblical standards, but it's there. No one in the world (with a reasonable amount of maturity and self-awareness) would wear that speedo or bikini to a board meeting, or a symphony orchestra. I think they also have a general sense of what is acceptable for visiting a church, and generally, what visitors wear is acceptable - for all but the most modest churches (which is a sad statement on the state of Christianity at large - I'm thinking evangelical churches - more so than on the world). Unless a church's doors actually opened onto the beach sand, I really don't see any visitor ever trying to wear a swimsuit to church.  The 'swimsuit argument' is probably a bit of a straw man.

That all said, if a visitor did walk in in something that even the world culture understood was inappropriate for the setting, I think it would be appropriate to kindly challenge them on that. They either already know that it's inappropriate, or they are severely socially challenged. However, if what they are wearing meets the norms of what the culture/churchianity at large accepts as appropriate church wear, than they are actually trying to be appropriate and respectful. To fail to recognize that, and immediately challenge them to meet 'our' standards... isn't good.  

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Edited March 19, 2023 by ...

[Salyan]

2 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

The problem is that the world keeps changing what it believes to be appropriate attire.  

This is true.

I also find it interesting that some of the strongest push-back I receive on this issue is from female church members.  When I have invited non believers as guests, often they ask my what they should wear, but if they don't ask, I will just tell them that the men usually wear suits and the women wear loose fitting, high neckline dresses that come below the knees when seated.  I have never had any of my guests balk or complain at all.  They always seem to understand and respect it.

That was kinda my point too. When people know what to wear, they're happy to comply. I was speaking to those outsiders who don't know how 'we' precisely dress, so are dressing as they've seen other churches dress. They are trying to be respectful. 

And pushback can come for two reasons: either the women don't agree with the standards themselves (pretty sure that's not me; I'm one of the most conservative in my church), or they have the feminine understanding to know what the unsaid response might be.

We are not to lower our standards for unbelievers.  Many IFB churches have adopted worldly CCM music for their services to appeal to more people.  Some have even started being okay with bible versions, other than the KJV being used by members. Churches in almost every denomination have full scale coffee shops and there are even some that have actual Starbucks in them.  Standards slip a little bit at a time and never stop falling unless intentional action is taken to stop it and/or reverse it.  We are not to lower our standards to accommodate the world.

Never said we should. I was saying that we need to be considerate of the fact that these people are trying to be respectful, in their way, and recognize that we should not expect unbelievers to act like believers. 

 

[DaveW]

4 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

I also find it interesting that some of the strongest push-back I receive on this issue is from female church members. 

And yet you ignore my question?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

5 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

The problem is that the world keeps changing what it believes to be appropriate attire.  There are things that I have seen women wear to church that even prostitutes would not have worn an hundred years ago; one of the reasons being that they would have been arrested.  The world's acceptable standards get lower and more inappropriate every year.

Brother Stafford,

I certainly agree that the world keeps changing its standards of appropriate cultural attire, and that in many cases it changes toward that which would be Scripturally defined as immoral.  Certainly, when that occurs, we should NOT follow along in the way with them.

Yet it is not always wrong for God's people to adapt with the changing standards of cultural attire.  In fact, the suit coat and tie is a cultural development.  They certainly are not found within Biblical revelation.  Furthermore, pants-wear as outerwear (on men or women) is also a cultural development.  Such also is not found within Biblical revelation.  

Here is a question I have often wondered -- If I (an American man) showed up to most Fundamental Baptist churches wearing an embroidered robe, including tassels and bells on its hem, and wearing a girdle type belt, how would I be accepted in such churches? 

Edited August 31, 2018 by Pastor Scott Markle

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Edited March 19, 2023 by ...

[Pastor Scott Markle]

4 minutes ago, Brother Stafford said:

No, I would not insist on a suit for people in the highlands of Papua New Guinea.  However, if there was a church in that area, I would require that if they wanted to attend  services, that they start by covering up their nakedness as it defined by God and work with them from there.  I assume that if enough of them understand the Gospel well enough so that a church would need to be built and that they can be considered for membership in the church, that they would understand that turning toward Christ means to turn away from sin.  I find that once many non western cultures understand the Gospel and what repentance means, they are more willing to adopt new behaviors than western cultures do.  I have also found that indigenous cultures also tend to be hyper sensitive to issues of respect and etiquette.  I found these things to be true when I was in South Africa.

Heck, the very first thing Adam and Eve wanted to do, once they realized they had sinned, was to cover their nakedness.  They did it the best way they knew how, but it was not good enough.  God, Himself, had to cover them.  This has more to do with the requirement for sin being the shedding of innocent blood, but it is interesting that the first example God used was also connected to modesty.

Well said.

[DaveW]

5 hours ago, Brother Stafford said:

Letting the world set the standards for when we draw the line in our churches is a dangerous thing because of the ever lowering of standards of decency.  

This is actually the reason I posted the question.

You are letting the world set your standard, but justifying it because you think it is a high standard.

Different cultures have different levels of "Sunday best" or formal attire.

The standard should not necessarily be "suit and tie", but "culturally formal dress".

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE that the Bible sets a baseline modesty.

But formal dress is not necessarily a suit and tie.

IN YOUR AREA that may be entirely acceptable, but I can tell you that there are many people in Australia who would not darken the door of a church if a suit and tie was a prerequisite.

And I know of American missionaries whose churches here struggle because they have such a requirement.

I always wear a tie, and will wear a jacket if it is not too hot.

I lead by example, but the moment I say the men have to wear a tie is the moment that some of them will stop coming.

A friend of mine is a missionary in a south Pacific island group and he said it is the funniest thing - in official meetings the men turn up in knee length skirts and ties. No shirt - shirts are informal. Just a skirt and a necktie with no shirt.

But the men have been taught to wear a shirt to church because of modesty.

People should dress as though they were meeting their king/president/ruler.

The form that takes is different for different countries and different cultures and IS INDEED influenced by the culture of the time and region.

But in fact I broadly agree with you.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

5 minutes ago, DaveW said:

Different cultures have different levels of "Sunday best" or formal attire.

The standard should not necessarily be "suit and tie", but "culturally formal dress".

Overall, I agree; and I myself do practice and do emphasize the need for culturally "formal dress" in relation to church services.

However, this does raise a worthy question (at least, in my opinion) -- Does God's Word ever indicate some kind of standard for appropriate attire and/or "formal" dress for church gatherings?  (Yes, I certainly recognize the Scriptural standard of modest attire as morally appropriate for any occasion.)

[Jordan Kurecki]

34 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Overall, I agree; and I myself do practice and do emphasize the need for culturally "formal dress" in relation to church services.

However, this does raise a worthy question (at least, in my opinion) -- Does God's Word ever indicate some kind of standard for appropriate attire and/or "formal" dress for church gatherings?  (Yes, I certainly recognize the Scriptural standard of modest attire as morally appropriate for any occasion.)

You mean wearing a suit and a tie is not evidence of being filled with the holy spirit?! haha. Agreed, I grow weary of people pushing the suit and tie culture with things like "professionals wear suits and ties" (even though in our culture that's not always true) (Besides since when do minister's of the Gospel mimic the way worldly business operates?) Then you have the "we should dress our best for God" bit as if God is impressed with our dressing up. (not saying we should dress like a slob either) Honestly, if it wasn't for the fact that other people somewhat expect it, I would not feel bad at all forgoing the whole suit and tie culture, the only reason why I do it is because IFBs expect it. I honestly don't feel like there is something sacred about a suit and tie. In fact, I think our culture really is getting away from that formalism, and of course, you can argue about the reason for that change being bad or whatever, but it's still changing.

I think your question reveals a lot about this matter. 

[DaveW]

My biggest issue with this sort of thing is that it is soooooooo easy to wash the outside and impress people watching, but leave the heart completely unaddressed. 

I think that this one area where a church has liberty (keeping in mind the baseline modesty), and that anyone who wants to honour the Lord will submit to that church's standard.

But someone who is genuinely saved will come to what is considered God honoring dress BECAUSE of the change of their natural man to a new creature.

It may take some people longer than others because we all grow at different rates.

But any organisation has a right to demand basic good manners and basic modesty.

[Jordan Kurecki]

43 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Overall, I agree; and I myself do practice and do emphasize the need for culturally "formal dress" in relation to church services.

However, this does raise a worthy question (at least, in my opinion) -- Does God's Word ever indicate some kind of standard for appropriate attire and/or "formal" dress for church gatherings?  (Yes, I certainly recognize the Scriptural standard of modest attire as morally appropriate for any occasion.)

I think a thread to discuss your question would be helpful and profitable.

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Edited March 19, 2023 by ...

[Salyan]

Eh... I'm not a huge fan of the kilt, but I've never heard of it being a subject for mockery by and large.

[Rebecca]

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Edited August 29, 2021 by Rebecca