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John Keeter

Salvation After Rapture

Question

Does the "strong delusion" in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 mean that those who heard and rejected the gospel before the rapture cannot be saved after the rapture?

If so why? If not...what Does it mean?

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To whom it may concern,

I myself hold that 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 applies to the mid-point of the seven year tribulation, not to the beginning-point, and that it applies unto ALL unbelievers at that time without any exceptions.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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John,

We appreciate your concern for a fuller knowledge of 2 Thessalonians 2: 10-12, "And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

In the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9, we understand that those in the 7-Year Tribulation Period, Revelation Chapter 6-19, who had previously (before the start of the 7-Year Tribulation Period), known the way of salvation by grace, through faith in the gospel of the Lord Jesus, and rejected the way of salvation, will be deceived by the anti-Christ and not get saved.

Why? The scriptures state that they had not received the truth of salvation because they had pleasure in their unrighteous behavior.

In connection with why people in any age reject eternal salvation, Paul stated (after listing 33 known and open sins of the flesh and spirit),  "Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them." Romans 1:32. Those folks who love the pleasure of their sins will reap the consequence of their decision.

In the 7-Year Tribulation Period, even though the 144,000, and the two prophets who come from God, and the angel preaching the everlasting gospel, preach the only way of salvation through faith in Christ; those people who had known the way of salvation in the age of grace, but rejected it, will be deceived by a delusion sent from God, and damned.

I do hope that the above short discussion has helped answer your question. Please feel free to ask further questions or discuss the issue.

Alan

 

 

Edited by Alan
grammer

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20 hours ago, John Keeter said:

Does the "strong delusion" in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 mean that those who heard and rejected the gospel before the rapture cannot be saved after the rapture?

If so why? If not...what Does it mean?

Here is a different perspective perhaps:

Yes it does mean that. I believe it has to do with the change of ages at the rapture. I believe those under Grace through faith without sight (church age) with the Holy Spirit's presence to convict the world of sin, righteousness and Judgment to come had their chance with the Spirit's conviction (which they spurned all their lives and basically made fun of true believers to some degree or another). Think about it in this way. The Spirit and the Word have been at work with the Gospel for 2000 years, the industrialized world has had it for generations and by enlarge have rejected it. As the clock ticks the industrialized world becomes exceedingly reprobate. These reprobates have heard and rejected the Christ and Gospel of the Bible. As God did with Pharaoh, He will do with these further hardening their reprobate hearts since they made their choice already.

This prospect is terrifying to me when thinking of lost loved ones and neighbors, etc...because I know they have heard it clearly and I believe strongly that we are in the last generation or very close to it, of the church age. 

After the end of the church age (catching away) the way God deals with man changes. it will be as it was in the OT with signs, wonders, miracles, etc. once again as clearly and specifically described throughout Revelation. The basis for this theory is of course the Bible but at a more strategic viewpoint. Our age is clearly the only period in History where the Spirit was poured out and indwelling to all believers and convicting the world.

During the seven year tribulation, those of the industrialized world who by chance have not heard the Gospel clearly will believe and refuse the mark. These tribulation saints in the industrialized parts of the world will suffer the most I would think with having two choices, refuse the mark and die or refuse the mark by successfully hiding and surviving off the grid. 

There will be no regeneration as we know it during the tribulation, nor eternal security through the Spirit's sealing (HE won't be here to regenerate or seal). Nothing in Revelation or other NT references indicates otherwise. Just as it was in the OT, the Spirit was not poured out over all flesh and present to convict the world as He is during our current age. He will leave earth with the Church at the Rapture. So these saints will have to keep their faith, refusing the mark until the end.  However, not all of them will die, some will successfully hide I would suspect but Revelation indicates that multitudes will be slain for Christ, refusing the mark.

Those who have never heard the Gospel prior to the catching away will be predominantly those of the third world, communist strongholds (to some extent), places with government or culturally enforced religions like India,  etc.. These are the masses to which the Gospel has been effectively blocked by principalities. I suspect a majority of these people will believe and will survive the tribulation in belief due to the ministry of the 144k. I believe the beast's reach will not be firmly held in these geographical areas since much of it is not "connected" electronically with the industrialized world. I believe the focus of the 2 witnesses will be direct contradiction to the beast, the image of the beast and the false prophet. These two will reprove and rebuke the industrialized (reprobate) population who worship or concede to the beast.

On a side note, the recent exposition of social media like facebook, google, twitter, etc is very enlightening to me. I say this because these companies who work for the beast now (although unwittingly at this point) have amassed all the data they need from the industrialized population. Because of our internet habits they know who has guns, who is conservative and certainly who is Christ's simply based on our browsing and posting habits which these companies track. They don't need government records, the beast will have everything he needs to enforce the new laws which abolish first the 2nd amendment and then the 1st amendment and then the real persecution will begin. Yes, although the US is not named in Scripture and if we truly are in the last generation of the church age, then the US as it stands now will be the key influencer over the rest of the industrialized world and will play a deciding role in the beast's acceptance. Europe is gone as previously known so that union, though at the center of the beast's political power simply does not carry credible influence with the rest of the industrialized world like the US does.

Interesting subject. Put no stock in thinking that our lost loved ones will get another chance.....they probably won't. I believe the catching away marks the end of an age, just like physical death has meant the end of that individuals chances to reconcile with God (God's Way which is the only Way that counts). The catching away marks the end of chances for those who rejected Christ previously when God gave HIS WAY, HIS TRUTH and HIS LIFE to the world for 2 millennia affording every chance and every Spiritual help for them to believe.

I believe like when the door of the ark shut, so does the door of Grace by faith without sight (the Blessed folks Jesus referred to as having NOT seen, yet believed)

Of course like everyone's thoughts on prophecy I am no where near dogmatic on this. I just am leaning heavily that way at this point.

 

Edited by wretched

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On 5/1/2018 at 5:44 PM, John Keeter said:

Does the "strong delusion" in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 mean that those who heard and rejected the gospel before the rapture cannot be saved after the rapture?

If so why? If not...what Does it mean?

I would say yes, that after the Rapture event, those still remaining who have heard the message of the Gospel would be the ones God blinds to the Antichrist affecting them now. I am a Calvinist, so those would also be the ones whom God did not intend to get saved, so he is continue to harden them off, just as He did to Pharaoh.

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2 hours ago, BroMatt said:

I've had many discussions with Calvinists (Isn't it strange that their doctrine is named after a man?) and the dispute for this verse is that since this verse is talking about the second coming of Christ that is talking about God waiting. Peter is explaining the reason for the delay in Christ's second coming. In reality, He is God, He does not have to wait for anyone.

One question that I have is if God never intended everyone to get saved, then He hates those people. Then why is it that the same God is commanding me to love them that He hates? Bible commands us to love our neighbor, why would He want me to love someone on this earth that He hates, only for them to spend eternity in Hell?

All of us were judged by God in the fall to be now dead in Adam, and so all were lost and enemies of God. the Lord intended for the death of jesus to be intendedto save a faithful remnant chosen out from all lost hujmanity, as He will determine to save His own out, and to permit the remainder to ahve their will be done and stay in their dead sin nature states. The Cross of jesus has the Grace to have indeed saved all sinners, but the intent was to save out the Elect of God. There was a pattern for that in Israel, as God always reserved and saved out a faithful remnant unto Himself.

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Let me get this straight Dan. All means all in your statement that "all were lost and enemies of God."But in the verse I supplied stating that, "all should come to repentance, all only means some?

My old original missionary pastor used to say, "all means all, and that's all that all means."

You can't have it both ways, either all means all or all means some, which is it?

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59 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

All of us were judged by God in the fall to be now dead in Adam, and so all were lost and enemies of God. the Lord intended for the death of jesus to be intendedto save a faithful remnant chosen out from all lost hujmanity, as He will determine to save His own out, and to permit the remainder to ahve their will be done and stay in their dead sin nature states. The Cross of jesus has the Grace to have indeed saved all sinners, but the intent was to save out the Elect of God. There was a pattern for that in Israel, as God always reserved and saved out a faithful remnant unto Himself.

You did not answer the question. I'm hoping you are not like the calvinist around here that just talks & talks without answering the question at hand. I really would like to discuss this with you.

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11 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Bro. Jordan, you surprise me in that the context of 2 Pet.3:9 has historically been interpreted to mean all mankind, which lines up with all other Scripture that shows that "all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God." The "all" here is commonly understood to mean all mankind.

To even hint that my usage of the word "all" in this Scripture could in any way be shown to include our Lord borders on being silly. Other Scripture very clearly points out that Jesus had no sin, therefore nothing to repent of. Therefore common sense would immediately eliminate our Lord from the usage of the word "all".

2 Peter nowhere says that it was written to the elect. Calvinism is well known for torturing Scripture to make a point. That point is almost without fail a man made doctrine, which is exactly what Calvinism is.

You say you are not a Calvinist and I do not believe you are, but you are arguing from a Calvinist platform in your post.

2 Timothy 2:4 is a much better example.

 

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5 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

2 Timothy 2:4 is a much better example.

 

That is  1Tim 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 

Yes it is a very good example, thank you for it.

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On 8/11/2018 at 5:08 PM, BroMatt said:

You did not answer the question. I'm hoping you are not like the calvinist around here that just talks & talks without answering the question at hand. I really would like to discuss this with you.

To the OP,  all of those who have heard the Gospel of jesus and were rejecting being saved before the Rapture, will be harden off by God to believe in the Antichrist.

On 8/11/2018 at 8:03 PM, Jim_Alaska said:

Bro. Jordan, you surprise me in that the context of 2 Pet.3:9 has historically been interpreted to mean all mankind, which lines up with all other Scripture that shows that "all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God." The "all" here is commonly understood to mean all mankind.

To even hint that my usage of the word "all" in this Scripture could in any way be shown to include our Lord borders on being silly. Other Scripture very clearly points out that Jesus had no sin, therefore nothing to repent of. Therefore common sense would immediately eliminate our Lord from the usage of the word "all".

2 Peter nowhere says that it was written to the elect. Calvinism is well known for torturing Scripture to make a point. That point is almost without fail a man made doctrine, which is exactly what Calvinism is.

You say you are not a Calvinist and I do not believe you are, but you are arguing from a Calvinist platform in your post.

Calvinist such as myself just would that be seeing our system as the best way to explain how the Lord saves lost sinners, due to us now beijng unable to do anyhting to save ourselves due to lost sin natured state.

But again, i am not here to convert anyone to my side, just to have good Christian discussing and sharpening each other!

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Ok, I must express some frustration concerning this thread discussion of late.  I definitely desire to engage in the discussion concerning Calvinistic soteriology; however, that subject is NOT really the purpose of THIS thread.  Thus I have refrained.  If that discussion could be moved to another thread, I would be more comfortable engaging therein.

Then again, maybe all would prefer that I just stay out of it.  😎

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15 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Ok, I must express some frustration concerning this thread discussion of late.  I definitely desire to engage in the discussion concerning Calvinistic soteriology; however, that subject is NOT really the purpose of THIS thread.  Thus I have refrained.  If that discussion could be moved to another thread, I would be more comfortable engaging therein.

Then again, maybe all would prefer that I just stay out of it.  😎

Ok, it's early here and I am not at my best with "early". I am not understanding what it is that you would like moved Bro. Scott.

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10 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Ok, it's early here and I am not at my best with "early". I am not understanding what it is that you would like moved Bro. Scott.

The original question of this thread discussion concerns salvation for sinners after the rapture, not the subject of Calvinism.  I am interested to join in with the Calvinism discussion, but do not care do so in this thread (because of its original question).  Thus I would like the Calvinism discussion moved to another thread, dedicated to that purpose.

(Was that more clear, Brother Jim?)

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On 5/2/2018 at 6:14 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

To whom it may concern,

I myself hold that 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 applies to the mid-point of the seven year tribulation, not to the beginning-point, and that it applies unto ALL unbelievers at that time without any exceptions.

I agree with Bro. Scott about verses 11-12 as the mid-point of the seven year tribulation. And I believe that this verse is key in the formation of my belief:  2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

According to Revelation the Anti Christ is revealed at the mid-point of the tribulation.

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