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Zuno_Yazh

Christ's Pre-Ascension Days

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Acts 1:1-3 . .The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: to whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

 

That's fine that Jesus showed himself alive to the apostles by many convincing proofs; but where's our proofs? How are his followers today supposed to be convinced Jesus is alive?

 

1Cor 9:1 . . Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord?

 

Well; if Paul wasn't telling the truth about his close encounter of a third kind with Jesus, then people today relying upon his writings, who've never seen Jesus for themselves; are no less gullible than Jim Jones' followers.

 

1Cor 15:14-17 . . If Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: and if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain.

 

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Edited by Zuno_Yazh

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This is a KJV forum - please use only KJV in your posts, and it would be appreciated if you would change those passages already used with KJV.

By the way, have you posted in the into section to let us know your trstimony?

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Luke 23:43 . . Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

Three days later, after passing away on the cross and coming back from the dead; Jesus said to his friend Mary Magdalene:

 

John 20:17 . .Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:

 

So; where was this paradise about which Jesus spoke in Luke 23:43?

 

There's a paradise in heaven (Rev 2:7) but I don't think Jesus was there because according to Ps 16:8-10, Matt 12:40, and Acts 2:25-31, Jesus soul was in the netherworld; which, according to the second chapter of Jonah, is down rather than up.

 

The only paradise that I'm aware of located in the netherworld is the area where Lazarus and Abraham were situated during the event recorded in Luke 16:19-31.

 

NOTE: The koiné Greek word translated "touch" is somewhat ambiguous. It not only refers to making physical contact, but also clinging, i.e. holding on.

 

It's very likely that Mary was under the impression that Jesus was not only back, but back for good; and his response was merely a heads-up to prevent her from becoming too attached because he would soon be leaving again; permanently.

 

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Edited by Zuno_Yazh

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According to Ps 16:8-10, Matt 12:40, and Acts 2:25-31, Christ's soul was in the netherworld while waiting for his body's resurrection. And according to Luke 23:43, the location was a paradise.

 

The only paradise I know of that satisfies those criteria is the afterlife site where Abraham was residing in the story that's told at Luke 16:19-31. The story is commonly referred to as a parable; but I kinda have my doubts about that for a number of reasons.

 

Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that, though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

 

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

 

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while the other is far removed from normal reality.

 

I have yet to read even one of Jesus Christ's usual parables that couldn't possibly be a real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets, stewards, weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets, women losing coins, sons leaving home, wineskins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread, barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

 

Now; if Christ had told a story that alleged the moon was made of green cheese; we would have good reason to believe that at least that one was fantasy; but none of his usual parables are like that. No; there's nothing out of the ordinary in them. At best; Christ's usual parables might qualify as fiction; but never fantasy because none of them are so far removed from the normal round of human experience that they have no basis in reality whatsoever.

 

I think it is very safe to conclude that if Luke 16:19-31 were in fact a parable, it would at least be based upon reality because it would be inconsistent for all the other stories Jesus told to be realistic and then have him tell just the one that's not.

 

The parable theory has a fatal flaw. Abraham is not a fictional character: he's a real-life man; the father of the Hebrew people, held in very high esteem by at least three of the world's prominent religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. And he's also the friend of God (Isa 41:8). I simply cannot believe that Jesus Christ-- a man famous among normal Christians for his honesty and integrity --would say something untrue about a famous real-life man; especially about one of his Father's buddies.

 

And on top of that, the story quotes Abraham a number of times. Well; if the story is untrue, then Jesus Christ is on record testifying that Abraham said things that he didn't really say; which is a clear violation of the commandment that prohibits bearing false witness.

 

There is something else to consider.

 

The story of the rich man and Lazarus didn't originate with Jesus Christ. No, it originated with his Father. In other words: Jesus Christ was micro-managed.

 

John 3:34 . . He whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God

 

John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

 

John 8:28 . . I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

 

John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

 

John 14:24 . .The word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

 

So, by alleging that Luke 16:19-31 is fiction/fantasy, the parable theory slanders God by insinuating that He's a person of marginal integrity who can't be trusted to tell the truth about people, not even about His own friends.

 

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Edited by Zuno_Yazh

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Luke 24:36-43 . . And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

 

. . . And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

 

. . . And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them.

 

The Watchtower Society (a.k.a. Jehovah's Witnesses) claim that the body Jesus invited his friends to examine was not an actual human body. They allege that it was a materialized body, i.e. an avatar. In other words: the human body of the Society's Jesus never recovered; it's still dead.

 

"If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be taking his sacrifice off God's altar." (page 237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the Watchtower magazine)

 

In the Society's thinking, there no longer exists a human Jesus; he's undergone a species change: now he's an angel.

 

Angels are spirit beings; their bodies are invisible to the human eye. A fully functioning human avatar was allegedly Jesus' way of showing his friends that their beloved master, although dead, was still in existence.

 

Well; if Jesus really and truly had undergone a species change, then why didn't he tell anybody about it? But not once did he ever let on that the body his friends were invited to examine wasn't really him.

 

Well that, in my estimation, would be the grandest fraud ever perpretrated; even exceeding Bernie Madoff's colossal Ponzi scheme, and that's saying something!!

 

Jesus Christ is revered by Christians the world over for his honesty and integrity. It is just absolutely unthinkable that God's son would ever mislead people like that, any people, let alone his friends. Bernie Madoff misled his friends; but Bernie is a degenerate sociopath.

 

Jesus proclaimed "it is I myself". Well; I for one am satisfied that the body his friends were invited to examine really was himself rather than a very clever disguise.

 

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Edited by Zuno_Yazh

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While discussing Good Friday with one of its defenders, my opponent suggested that the darkness that took place while Jesus was nailed to the cross was one of the three nights that he predicted at Matt 12:40.

 

Well; of course that doesn't work because Jesus was alive during those hours of darkness on the cross. The three nights he predicted at Matt 12:40 were to take place while he was deceased and tucked away in the heart of the earth.

 

Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the earth. It wasn't even in the earth's soil. His corpse was laid to rest on the surface of the earth in a rock-hewn tomb.

 

Jesus compared his experience with Jonah's nautical adventure. A careful examination of the finer points of the second chapter of his prophecy reveals that although Jonah was alive while in the fish, he wasn't alive the whole time. No, at some point in his ordeal, Jonah went to a place called sheol, which he sited at the bottoms of the mountains.

 

Well; even a school kid with an elementary knowledge of science knows that the bottoms of the mountains aren't in the tummy of a fish; nor are the bottoms of the mountains in the sea. No; the bottoms of the mountains are many, many, miles below both the fish and the sea.

 

If what I'm saying here is true, then at some point in his adventure; Jonah was quite dead.

 

Jonah 2:6 . . . I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.

 

The Hebrew word translated "corruption" refers to putrefaction. In other words "brought up my life" speaks of Jonah's resurrection.

 

According to Ps 16:8-10 and Acts 2:25-31 Jesus too was spared putrefaction by means of his resurrection.

 

According to Matt 10:28, the body and the soul are perishable. However; though the body is perishable by any means, the soul is perishable only by divine means; i.e. the deaths of body and soul aren't necessarily simultaneous, which readily indicates that once the body and the soul are separated, it becomes possible to relocate the soul. In the cases of Jonah and Jesus; their souls were transferred to the bottoms of the mountains.

 

Thus it all came to pass just as predicted: "as Jonah . . . so the Son of Man."

 

Both underwent death, both were entombed, both spent some time in the netherworld, and both their bodies were raised from the dead within the space of three days and three nights.

 

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Edited by Zuno_Yazh

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Jesus Christ is currently equipped with a supernatural body, a.k.a. a glorified body.

 

Phil 3:20-21 . . For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body

 

There's some things said about his glorious body.

 

1• It's human. (1Tim 2:5, Heb 2:5-9)

 

2• It's immortal. (Rom 6:9)

 

3• It's impervious to disease and the aging process. (1Cor 15:53)

 

4• It's capable of dining upon ordinary foods and imbibing ordinary beverages. (Luke 22:15-16, Matt 26:29)

 

5• It's visible to the naked eye. (Acts 1:11, Acts 7:56, Rev 1:7)

 

6• Its composition is different than that of a normal human body. (1Cor 15:50)

 

Now; the million dollar question is: When did Christ obtain his glorified body: at the moment of his resurrection, or a later date?

 

Well; I'm of the opinion that he obtained it a later date. Watch as I deliberately misquote John 2:19-21.

 

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will replace it. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body."

 

No, he didn't say he'd replace this temple; he said he'd raise it up. Here's that passage misquoted again.

 

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will improve it. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? But he spake of the temple of his body."

 

No, he didn't say he'd improve this temple; he said he'd raise it up.

 

In context, "raise it up" refers to reconstruction. I know that's what it refers to because that's how the Jews understood Jesus' statement. In other words; the Jews understood Jesus to mean he'd rebuild the temple piece by piece, stone by stone, right back to its original condition from it's own rubble, sort of like putting Humpty Dumpty back together again so's the finished result wouldn't be another temple nor an improved temple; it would be the very same temple: the same architecture and the same materials-- absolutely no changes: nothing added, nothing altered, and nothing substituted.

 

So then; if Jesus' crucified dead body didn't undergo any modifications at the time of its return to life, nor for the next forty days; then when? Well; that's easy peasy lemon squeezy

 

The dead bodies of all Christ's believing followers are on track to be returned to life and then taken up to meet The Lord in the air (1Thes 4:14-17). On the way up, their resurrected bodies will undergo a sudden, miraculous transformation (1Cor 15:51-53). I think it's pretty safe to believe that Christ's body underwent the very same process while on the way up to heaven as per Acts 1:9 so that today his body is no longer the normal human body it once was; but instead a supernatural human body to which all his believing followers' bodies will one day conform.

 

Q: What about his resurrected body's ability to walk through locked doors and to appear and disappear? Doesn't that prove he came back from death with a glorified body?

 

A: Christ walked on water, restored withered limbs, cured people born blind, healed serious diseases like leprosy, restored dead bodies to life, controlled the weather, multiplied fish and bread, dried up a fig tree, and turned water into wine. In point of fact, he did other things too. (John 20:30)

 

Well; what's one more miracle, more or less? Walking through walls? Disappearing and reappearing? How hard could any of that really be for a man with the powers of God at his disposal?

 

It's curious how people can say they believe in miracles but yet cannot believe that God has sufficient control over the laws of nature to make an ordinary human body pass through solid objects and/or transport it from one place to another in the blink of an eye.

 

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John 20:11-16 reports that Mary Magdalene didn't recognize Jesus when he spoke with her in the cemetery on the day his crucified dead body came back to life. Why not?

 

Well; the last time Mary saw Jesus in person, he was beaten and bloodied beyond recognition (Isa 52:14) and quite dead and laid to rest too. The last person on earth that Mary expected to encounter was Jesus alive, in good health, and all cleaned up.

 

I had a good friend some years ago who died of a heart attack in his forties. Every now and then I'll see a guy here and there who resembles my friend; but I know better than to think it's really him because he's dead. Well; I'm pretty sure that even had Mary seen a strong resemblance to Jesus in the man speaking to her, she would have instantly dismissed out of mind the likelihood that it was her deceased Jesus just the same as I quite naturally dismiss out of mind the likelihood that these other men I see every so often are my deceased friend.

 

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Edited by Zuno_Yazh

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