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Jordan Kurecki

Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?

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9 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Pastor Markle where you at?

I am teaching on this passage in Sunday School and was hoping to have your comments on the cessation of the gifts by now! 

Sorry, Brother Kurecki, I have been traveling a bit over the last few weeks; and the rest of my time has been quite ministry and family busy.  I will try to get another posting out this afternoon; but likely it will only cover the questions from 1 Corinthians 13:8, as per my posting above.  On the other hand, (without seeking to be "abrasive") maybe the Lord intended for you to focus upon your own study of the passage in order to teach the class, rather than to depend overmuch upon me.  Certainly I am willing to be of help, but ever remember the need for personal study.  In any case, let me see what I can do this afternoon.

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3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sorry, Brother Kurecki, I have been traveling a bit over the last few weeks; and the rest of my time has been quite ministry and family busy.  I will try to get another posting out this afternoon; but likely it will only cover the questions from 1 Corinthians 13:8, as per my posting above.  On the other hand, (without seeking to be "abrasive") maybe the Lord intended for you to focus upon your own study of the passage in order to teach the class, rather than to depend overmuch upon me.  Certainly I am willing to be of help, but ever remember the need for personal study.  In any case, let me see what I can do this afternoon.

I’ve done quite a bit of looking at the passage on my own. I lean heavily towards the position that the “that which is perfect” is the completed canon of scripture. However I am not 100% convinced of this position based on vs 12, particularly the second part of that verse.

Correct me if I am wrong, but revelation was completed in AD 90, years after Paul’s martyrdom? 

1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV
[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

It doesn’t really make sense to me that Paul says that “THEN” he shall know AS HE IS KNOWN. If this passage is talking about the completed canon why does Paul say then he would be known, wouldn’t he be in heaven already where the completed canon on earth is somewhat irrelevant? 

 

I would also note that I cannot find a single commentator that is not modern, who says the “that which is perfect” is the word of God. Gill, Barnes, Clarke, Wesley, and Matthew Henry all say it refers to something else, many of them say it refers to the eternal state where knowledge is complete. This seems to fit more with vs 12. 

Edited by Jordan Kurecki

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2 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

I’ve done quite a bit of looking at the passage on my own. I lean heavily towards the position that the “that which is perfect” is the completed canon of scripture. However I am not 100% convinced of this position based on vs 12, particularly the second part of that verse.

Correct me if I am wrong, but revelation was completed in AD 90, years after Paul’s martyrdom? 

1 Corinthians 13:12 KJV
[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

It doesn’t really make sense to me that Paul says that “THEN” he shall know AS HE IS KNOWN. If this passage is talking about the completed canon why does Paul say then he would be known, wouldn’t he be in heaven already where the completed canon on earth is somewhat irrelevant? 

 

I would also note that I cannot find a single commentator that is not modern, who says the “that which is perfect” is the word of God. Gill, Barnes, Clarke, Wesley, and Matthew Henry all say it refers to something else, many of them say it refers to the eternal state where knowledge is complete. This seems to fit more with vs 12. 

Brother Kurecki,

I certainly agree that 1 Corinthians 13:12 is the verse that makes the passage so "complicated."

After lunch I will see what I can do with sending forth the next posting.

Praise the Lord for your personal efforts of study.  My comment was not intended as a rebuke, but only as a reminder.  Never quit being diligent in your own Bible study.

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1 Corinthians 13:10  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Gill on vs 10

"When perfect knowledge of God, of Christ, and of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven shall take place; which will not in this life, but in that which is to come. So the Jews say (r) that at the resurrection, upon the reunion of the soul and body, "the children of men shall attain to דעה שלימה, "perfect knowledge";'' which is what the apostle refers to here:"

Barnes on vs 10

"It means that when anything which is perfect is seen or enjoyed, then that which is imperfect is forgotten, laid aside, or vanishes. Thus, in the full and perfect light of day, the imperfect and feeble light of the stars vanishes. The sense here is, that “in heaven” - a state of absolute perfection - that which is “in part,” or which is imperfect, shall be lost in superior brightness. All imperfection will vanish. And all that we here possess that is obscure shall be lost in the superior and perfect glory of that eternal world. All our present unsatisfactory modes of obtaining knowledge shall be unknown. All shall be clear, bright, and eternal."

Clarke on vs 10

"The state of eternal blessedness; then that which is in part - that which is imperfect, shall be done away; the imperfect as well as the probationary state shall cease for ever."

Matthew Henry on vs 12

"God is to be seen face to face; and we are to know him as we are known by him; not indeed as perfectly, but in some sense in the same manner. We are known to him by mere inspection; he turns his eye towards us, and sees and searches us throughout. We shall then fix our eye on him, and see him as he is, 1Jn 3:2. We shall know how we are known, enter into all the mysteries of divine love and grace. O glorious change! To pass from darkness to light, from clouds to the clear sunshine of our Saviour's face, and in God's own light to see light! Psa 36:9. Note, It is the light of heaven only that will remove all clouds and darkness from the face of God. It is at best but twilight while we are in this world; there it will be perfect and eternal day."

Benson on vs 10:

"But when that which is perfect is come — As in the heavenly state it shall; then that which is only in part shall be done away — Both that poor, low, imperfect, glimmering light, which is all the knowledge we now can attain to, and these slow and unsatisfactory methods of attaining it, as well as of imparting it to others."

Wesley on vs 10: 

"But when that which is perfect is come - At death and in the last day. That which is in part shall vanish away - Both that poor, low, imperfect, glimmering light, which is all the knowledge we now can attain to; and these slow and unsatisfactory methods of attaining, as well as of imparting it to others."

Matthew Poole on vs 10:

"But when we come to heaven, we shall be in such a state, as nothing shall or can be added to us; then our partial and imperfect knowledge shall be swallowed up in a knowledge perfect and complete."

I am beginning to think that Baptists have misinterpreted this passage as a knee jerk reaction to Pentecostal Charismatic madness...I do not see any contextual evidence for why "that which is perfect" is the word of God, in fact vs 12 seems at odds with this idea. and seems much more to favor the idea that the commentators state. 

It seems that all the commentators prior to the popularization of the charismatic movement have interpreted this passage to be about being in heaven, or the eternal state, as opposed to the completion the canon of scripture. Now even if this is the correct interpretation it still does not give credence to all of the phony and false spiritual gifts exhibited in the charismatic movement. 

Consider also : "Christ's Coming or Eschatological View. Taking "that which is complete" as occurring in the period when Christ returns has been by far the majority view of this passage throughout church history, and there are good reasons why this is the case, in addition to the obvious weaknesses of the canon and maturity views. 

  1. Teleios is best understood as "perfection" (rather than "maturity") in light of Matthew 5:48, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." This could have been easily understood by the Corinthian readers.
  2. The neuter form of teleios allows for understanding it as the state of perfection.....
  3.  
  4. "Face to face" is an Old Testament formula for a theophany which will occur following Christ's return, so that point seems to be the period of, or after Christ's return.
  5. Being fully known will only be true after Messiah comes. Isaiah foresaw this time of Messiah's reign and the gathering of the nations (what we refer to as "the rapture") when, "the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:9)" 

http://www.jesuswalk.com/1corinthians/12_excursus-meaning-of-perfect-1cor13_10.htm

 

 

Edited by Jordan Kurecki

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Well, I was unable to complete this posting by yesterday afternoon, or even by yesterday evening.  However, here it is . . .

Concerning 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 – Answering Questions from Verse 8

1.  Are the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge intended as a different category of spiritual gift from the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking?

I would contend that the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge are to be viewed as representing a DIFFERENT category of spiritual gifts from the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking.  I come to this conclusion based upon the difference in grammatical presentation concerning the cessation of these spiritual gifts.  As I have noted in an earlier posting (A Grammatical Consideration), the Greek verb that is translated by the phrase, “Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail,” and also by the phrase, “Whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away,” is the same Greek verb in the same verb tense and the same verb voice, with both cases being translated from the Greek verb “καταργέω” (“katargeo,” Strong’s #2673) in the future tense and the passive voice.  However, the Greek verb that is translated by the phrase, “Whether there be tongues, they shall cease,” is a different Greek verb in the same verb tense, but a different verb voice than the other two cases, with this case being translated from the Greek verb “παύω” (“pauo,” Strong’s #3973) in the future tense and in the Greek middle voice.  By means of this grammatical difference, we learn that the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would come to cessation through a DIFFERENT manner than the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking.  On the one hand, the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would be made completely idle, useless, inoperative by some outside force, with 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 revealing that this will occur when “that which is perfect” replaces them with a more perfect operation.  On the other hand, the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking would simply cease all on its own, not because it would be replaced by something else, but simply because its reason for usefulness would cease to exist, as if the Lord God built into the gift of tongue-speaking an expiration date, after which the gift of tongue-speaking would no longer be viable.  Even so, this difference in the manner of their cessation moves me to conclude that the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge are a different category of spiritual gift from the spiritual gift of tongue speaking.

So then, what are these two different categories of spiritual gifts?  I would contend that the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking should be viewed in the category of sign gifts.  I come to this conclusion based upon the statement of our Lord Jesus Christ in Mark 16:17-18 – “And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”  Herein our Lord mentions signs that would follow believers, and then lists a series of different possible signs.  I would contend that this passage reveals the list of sign gifts, as follows: (1) the gift of devil-casting; (2) the gift of tongue-speaking; (3) the gift of miracles; (4) the gift of healing.  On the other hand, I would contend that the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge should be viewed in the category of revelatory gifts (gifts by which God’s truth is directly revealed from God to man).  I come to this conclusion through the apostle Paul’s illustration concerning these gifts in 1 Corinthians 13:11.  Therein he indicates that the shift from childhood to adulthood illustrates the shift from the operation of the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge to the coming and operation of “that which is perfect.”  Yet his illustration includes something more.  It includes the idea that this shift involves the difference between the thinking, understanding, and speaking of childhood in relation to the thinking, understanding, and speaking of adulthood.  Even so, I am moved to view the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge as involving the operation of spiritual thinking, understanding, and speaking, and thus to conclude that these spiritual gifts deal with the revelation and communication of God’s truth.  This might then raise the question concerning what other spiritual gifts might be in the category of revelatory gifts.  At this point in my study on spiritual gifts (which could be a bit more thorough than it presently is), I would also place the spiritual gift of apostleship (as per 1 Corinthians 12:28) in this category.

2.  Are these spiritual gifts intended simply to stand for themselves alone, or are they intended to represent the entire category of spiritual gifts in which they might be classified?

I would suggest that these spiritual gifts are intended to represent the entire category of spiritual gifts in which they might be classified.  As such, I would suggest that the principle of cessation that is herein presented concerning the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking would apply unto ALL of the spiritual gifts within the category of sign gifts.  Furthermore, I would suggest that the principle of cessation that is herein presented concerning the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would apply unto all of the spiritual gifts within the category of revelatory gifts.  I come to this conclusion based upon the reason for the cessation in each respective case. 

As we have learned, the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking (in the category of sign gifts) would cease of its own accord simply because its reason for usefulness would cease to exist.  So then, what is the purpose (the reason for usefulness) for the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking?  Concerning all of the sign gifts, Mark 16:19-20 appears to give the answer, saying, “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”  The purpose for all of these sign gifts, including the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking, was to “confirm the word” that they preached.  In this immediate context as per Mark 16:15, the specific word that they were to preach was the gospel.  Thus the purpose for the sign gifts, including the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking, was to confirm the word of the gospel message itself.  Even so, when the Lord God deemed that such a confirmation of the gospel message before the world was no longer necessary, the purpose for the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking would cease to exist; and then the spiritual gift itself would no longer be viable.  This means that after this time the Holy Spirit would not grant or empower this spiritual gift.  In fact, since this same purpose (reason for usefulness) encompasses all of the sign gifts, I would suggest that this same principle of cessation would also encompass all of sign gifts. 

In like manner, I would suggest that the principle of cessation that is given for the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would also encompass any other spiritual gift that might be classified under the category of the revelatory gifts.  As we have learned, this principle of cessation is different from the principle of cessation for the sign gifts.  Indeed, this principle of cessation is not that of natural cessation when the reason for usefulness ceases to exist.  Rather, this principle of cessation is that of replacement by “that which is perfect,” because “that which is perfect” will accomplish a more perfect operation of their purpose.  The purpose (reason for usefulness) of the revelatory gifts will not cease, but something “which is perfect” would come forth that could fulfill this purpose more perfectly than the revelatory gifts themselves could accomplish.  So then, what is the purpose for the revelatory gifts?  According to the apostle Paul’s illustration in 1 Corinthians 13:11, I would contend that their purpose was to guide believers in the thinking, understanding, and proclamation of God’s truth with spiritual accuracy.  Even so,

3.  How is the spiritual gift of prophecies to be Biblically defined?

There is some dispute concerning this definition, and the most precise definition would require a very thorough study of how the New Testament handles the matter of prophets and prophecy.  Yet I would suggest that the spiritual gift of prophecies should be defined as the reception of direct revelation from God for the purpose of proclamation unto men.

4.  How is the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking to be Biblically defined?

I would suggest the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking should be defined as the miraculous ability to speak a real (human), foreign language without previous education in that language.

5.  How is the spiritual gift of knowledge to be Biblically defined?

Since this spiritual gift is referenced so little in the New Testament, discerning a definition for it is somewhat difficult.  Yet I would suggest that the spiritual gift of knowledge should be defined as a supernatural understanding of spiritual truths for the purpose of explanation unto men.

6.  What is the reason of usefulness for the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking that shall cease to be necessary, whereby the spiritual gift itself would cease to be viable?

I have provided my thoughts concerning the answer to this question as I answered question #2 above.

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1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Well, I was unable to complete this posting by yesterday afternoon, or even by yesterday evening.  However, here it is . . .

Concerning 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 – Answering Questions from Verse 8

1.  Are the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge intended as a different category of spiritual gift from the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking?

I would contend that the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge are to be viewed as representing a DIFFERENT category of spiritual gifts from the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking.  I come to this conclusion based upon the difference in grammatical presentation concerning the cessation of these spiritual gifts.  As I have noted in an earlier posting (A Grammatical Consideration), the Greek verb that is translated by the phrase, “Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail,” and also by the phrase, “Whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away,” is the same Greek verb in the same verb tense and the same verb voice, with both cases being translated from the Greek verb “καταργέω” (“katargeo,” Strong’s #2673) in the future tense and the passive voice.  However, the Greek verb that is translated by the phrase, “Whether there be tongues, they shall cease,” is a different Greek verb in the same verb tense, but a different verb voice than the other two cases, with this case being translated from the Greek verb “παύω” (“pauo,” Strong’s #3973) in the future tense and in the Greek middle voice.  By means of this grammatical difference, we learn that the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would come to cessation through a DIFFERENT manner than the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking.  On the one hand, the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would be made completely idle, useless, inoperative by some outside force, with 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 revealing that this will occur when “that which is perfect” replaces them with a more perfect operation.  On the other hand, the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking would simply cease all on its own, not because it would be replaced by something else, but simply because its reason for usefulness would cease to exist, as if the Lord God built into the gift of tongue-speaking an expiration date, after which the gift of tongue-speaking would no longer be viable.  Even so, this difference in the manner of their cessation moves me to conclude that the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge are a different category of spiritual gift from the spiritual gift of tongue speaking.

So then, what are these two different categories of spiritual gifts?  I would contend that the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking should be viewed in the category of sign gifts.  I come to this conclusion based upon the statement of our Lord Jesus Christ in Mark 16:17-18 – “And these signs shall follow them that believe; in my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.”  Herein our Lord mentions signs that would follow believers, and then lists a series of different possible signs.  I would contend that this passage reveals the list of sign gifts, as follows: (1) the gift of devil-casting; (2) the gift of tongue-speaking; (3) the gift of miracles; (4) the gift of healing.  On the other hand, I would contend that the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge should be viewed in the category of revelatory gifts (gifts by which God’s truth is directly revealed from God to man).  I come to this conclusion through the apostle Paul’s illustration concerning these gifts in 1 Corinthians 13:11.  Therein he indicates that the shift from childhood to adulthood illustrates the shift from the operation of the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge to the coming and operation of “that which is perfect.”  Yet his illustration includes something more.  It includes the idea that this shift involves the difference between the thinking, understanding, and speaking of childhood in relation to the thinking, understanding, and speaking of adulthood.  Even so, I am moved to view the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge as involving the operation of spiritual thinking, understanding, and speaking, and thus to conclude that these spiritual gifts deal with the revelation and communication of God’s truth.  This might then raise the question concerning what other spiritual gifts might be in the category of revelatory gifts.  At this point in my study on spiritual gifts (which could be a bit more thorough than it presently is), I would also place the spiritual gift of apostleship (as per 1 Corinthians 12:28) in this category.

2.  Are these spiritual gifts intended simply to stand for themselves alone, or are they intended to represent the entire category of spiritual gifts in which they might be classified?

I would suggest that these spiritual gifts are intended to represent the entire category of spiritual gifts in which they might be classified.  As such, I would suggest that the principle of cessation that is herein presented concerning the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking would apply unto ALL of the spiritual gifts within the category of sign gifts.  Furthermore, I would suggest that the principle of cessation that is herein presented concerning the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would apply unto all of the spiritual gifts within the category of revelatory gifts.  I come to this conclusion based upon the reason for the cessation in each respective case. 

As we have learned, the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking (in the category of sign gifts) would cease of its own accord simply because its reason for usefulness would cease to exist.  So then, what is the purpose (the reason for usefulness) for the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking?  Concerning all of the sign gifts, Mark 16:19-20 appears to give the answer, saying, “So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”  The purpose for all of these sign gifts, including the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking, was to “confirm the word” that they preached.  In this immediate context as per Mark 16:15, the specific word that they were to preach was the gospel.  Thus the purpose for the sign gifts, including the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking, was to confirm the word of the gospel message itself.  Even so, when the Lord God deemed that such a confirmation of the gospel message before the world was no longer necessary, the purpose for the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking would cease to exist; and then the spiritual gift itself would no longer be viable.  This means that after this time the Holy Spirit would not grant or empower this spiritual gift.  In fact, since this same purpose (reason for usefulness) encompasses all of the sign gifts, I would suggest that this same principle of cessation would also encompass all of sign gifts. 

In like manner, I would suggest that the principle of cessation that is given for the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would also encompass any other spiritual gift that might be classified under the category of the revelatory gifts.  As we have learned, this principle of cessation is different from the principle of cessation for the sign gifts.  Indeed, this principle of cessation is not that of natural cessation when the reason for usefulness ceases to exist.  Rather, this principle of cessation is that of replacement by “that which is perfect,” because “that which is perfect” will accomplish a more perfect operation of their purpose.  The purpose (reason for usefulness) of the revelatory gifts will not cease, but something “which is perfect” would come forth that could fulfill this purpose more perfectly than the revelatory gifts themselves could accomplish.  So then, what is the purpose for the revelatory gifts?  According to the apostle Paul’s illustration in 1 Corinthians 13:11, I would contend that their purpose was to guide believers in the thinking, understanding, and proclamation of God’s truth with spiritual accuracy.  Even so,

3.  How is the spiritual gift of prophecies to be Biblically defined?

There is some dispute concerning this definition, and the most precise definition would require a very thorough study of how the New Testament handles the matter of prophets and prophecy.  Yet I would suggest that the spiritual gift of prophecies should be defined as the reception of direct revelation from God for the purpose of proclamation unto men.

4.  How is the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking to be Biblically defined?

I would suggest the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking should be defined as the miraculous ability to speak a real (human), foreign language without previous education in that language.

5.  How is the spiritual gift of knowledge to be Biblically defined?

Since this spiritual gift is referenced so little in the New Testament, discerning a definition for it is somewhat difficult.  Yet I would suggest that the spiritual gift of knowledge should be defined as a supernatural understanding of spiritual truths for the purpose of explanation unto men.

6.  What is the reason of usefulness for the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking that shall cease to be necessary, whereby the spiritual gift itself would cease to be viable?

I have provided my thoughts concerning the answer to this question as I answered question #2 above.

I am following you so far.. 

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15 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

I am following you so far.. 

Then you will understand my position that 1 Corinthians 13:8 includes the one statement of this passage concerning the cessation of the SIGN gifts (as per their representation through the gift of tongue-speaking), and that the majority of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 actually deals with the cessation of the REVELATORY gifts (as per their representation through the gifts of prophecies and of knowledge).  With this in mind, it would be my position as per 1 Corinthians 13:8 that the SIGN gifts have already ceased (probably near the end of the first century) because their purpose to confirm the word of the gospel message had ceased.  Inspired Scripture itself is a more sure word than miracles (sign gifts); therefore, the sign gifts would no longer be necessary for the confirmation of the gospel after the inspired Scriptures were complete. (Consider the teaching of 1 Peter 1:16-21 & Luke 16:27-31.)

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2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Then you will understand my position that 1 Corinthians 13:8 includes the one statement of this passage concerning the cessation of the SIGN gifts (as per their representation through the gift of tongue-speaking), and that the majority of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 actually deals with the cessation of the REVELATORY gifts (as per their representation through the gifts of prophecies and of knowledge).  With this in mind, it would be my position as per 1 Corinthians 13:8 that the SIGN gifts have already ceased (probably near the end of the first century) because their purpose to confirm the word of the gospel message had ceased.  Inspired Scripture itself is a more sure word than miracles (sign gifts); therefore, the sign gifts would no longer be necessary for the confirmation of the gospel after the inspired Scriptures were complete. (Consider the teaching of 1 Peter 1:16-21 & Luke 16:27-31.)

If you would allow me to play "devils advocate" for a moment, Doesn't your position assume though that tongues have surpassed their usefulness? Maybe I have perhaps a different mindset on this because of my interest and heart in missions and specifically unreached people groups, but can we really say that the gift of tongues would be completely out of the question and not be useful if one were to go into a tribe somewhere they have had no contact with the Gospel. (Yes many of these still exist today) With all due respect Pastor Markle, doesn't you position presuppose that the usefulness of tongues has passed? Upon what do you base this presupposition? 

I am not sure if you are familiar with Otto Koning, but here is what he claimed happened when he was in Papua New Guinea, I think it might possibly give you a different perspective on it, and I would really look forward to a response to this message/story. This is what that got me rethinking and evaluating 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. This audio is pretty easy to listen to, I don't you will find it a burden to listen to, I'm not exactly sure what to think about the story he tells, but it does give something to think about.

http://ia800601.us.archive.org/25/items/SERMONINDEX_SID28389/SID28389.mp3

the last 2 minutes are pretty interesting.

Edited by Jordan Kurecki

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From another forum "I think the significant factor here is what tongues is being grouped with in verse 8. For example, "prophesy" is found repeatedly in chapter 14 as a revelatory gift. Tongues is a revelatory gift. Hence, the direct association with these two revelatory gifts with "knowledge" would indicate it also is to be interpreted within the same category. There was virtually no written revelation for church policy, new covenant administration or teaching at the writing of first corinthians.

The second obvious contextual factor is that love is being contrasted to these revelatory gifts with regard to longevity (v. 8a).

Verse 8 indicates with regard to longevity, tongues ceases prior to the other two revelatory gifts.

Verses 9-10 take up the point of longevity with regard to prophecy and knowledge which has the temporal value of being PARTIAL with regard to revelation. Their longevity is terminated by the coming of "that" which is perfect. 

The proper understanding of "perfect" must be defined by immediate context. For example, these revelatory gifts are "IN PART" while "that" is not "in part" but is "perfect." Second, the immediate metaphor (v. 10) has to do with MATURITY rather than the second coming or a new world. Hence, there is a time for immature things and a time they must be put away which comes with maturity. Third, the second metaphor has to do with a contrast between means of revelation. There is no question that a mirror is an indirect means of revelation whereas "face to face" is a direct means of revelation. This language was used to describe the revelation provided to Moses that differed from that which was given to common prophets. Common prophets were provide revelation through indirect means (dreams, visions, etc.) where God spoke "face to face" with Moses by direct revelation.

Also there time terms of "now" versus "then" in context may refer to the apostolic period as the time of indirect revelatory gifts consummated by the completion of a more individual direct revelation - the completed inspired Word of God. During this "in part" period of time the average Christian had to depend upon revelation from God through indirect means, those among them with these gifts, whereas, "WHEN that which is perfect is come" no individual would have to depend on any other individual for revelation from God but would have it directly from God in written form for him/herself (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

The words "to know even as I am known" conveys the idea of direct revelation in contrast to indirect means. This has to be interpreted in context with the metaphors of maturity and mirror and is just another way to say the same thing in a different way.

Moreover, "now" in the apostolic period where there is no completed or mature direct personal revelation from God in written form, and they are dependent upon others, immature, in part revelatory gifts, yet "now" they have guiding principles (love, faith, hope) but primarily the "better way" of love to guide them in the proper use of these spiritual gifts."

 

This was an interesting take on it. 

Edited by Jordan Kurecki

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1 hour ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

From another forum "I think the significant factor here is what tongues is being grouped with in verse 8. For example, "prophesy" is found repeatedly in chapter 14 as a revelatory gift. Tongues is a revelatory gift. 

Yes, in verse 8 the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking is grouped with the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge.  However, the manner of cessation for the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking is expressed differently from the manner of cessation for the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge, for which two spiritual gifts the manner of cessation is expressed precisely the same.  For this very reason, as I have expressed above, I disagree that the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking is to be viewed as being in the category of revelatory gifts.  From my perspective, the argument given in the quotation above only considers a partial picture, not the whole picture.  Thus I remain with the position that the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking is to be viewed within the category of the sign gifts, as per Mark 16:17-18.

On the other hand, the rest of the thoughts in the article above are worthy of some consideration.

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On ‎5‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 11:54 AM, Jordan Kurecki said:

If you would allow me to play "devils advocate" for a moment, Doesn't your position assume though that tongues have surpassed their usefulness? Maybe I have perhaps a different mindset on this because of my interest and heart in missions and specifically unreached people groups, but can we really say that the gift of tongues would be completely out of the question and not be useful if one were to go into a tribe somewhere they have had no contact with the Gospel. (Yes many of these still exist today) With all due respect Pastor Markle, doesn't you position presuppose that the usefulness of tongues has passed? Upon what do you base this presupposition? 

Brother Kurecki, 

These are certainly valid questions for consideration.  Therefore, let us examine the Biblical revelation more thoroughly concerning the purpose for the sign gifts in general and for the gift of tongue-speaking in specific.

1.  The gift of tongue speaking should be viewed in the category of sign gifts.

Mark 16:17–18 — "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

1 Corinthians 14:22 -- "Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."


2.  The sign gifts are/were intended to confirm the word of the gospel.

Mark 16:15 -- "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Mark 16:20 -- "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen."

Hebrews 2:2-4 -- "For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; how shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; god also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?"

Acts 4:29-30 -- "And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, by stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus."

Acts 6:8 -- "And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people."

Acts 8:5-6 -- "Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.  And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did."

Acts 14:3 -- "Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands."

Romans 15:19-20 -- "Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.  Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation."


3.  The sign gifts are/were intended to confirm primarily the preaching and authority of the apostles.

2 Corinthians 12:12 -- "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds."

Acts 2:43 -- "And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles."

Acts 5:12 -- "And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon’s porch."

Acts 14:3 -- "Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord, which gave testimony unto the word of his grace, and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands."

Acts 15:12 -- "Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them."

Acts 19:11-12 -- "And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: so that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them."

Romans 15:19-20 -- "Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.  Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation."


4.  The gift of tongue-speaking was/is intended as a sign unto unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 -- "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."


5.  The gift of tongue-speaking was/is intended primarily as a sing unto unbelieving Jews.

1 Corinthians 14:21-22 -- "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.  Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."

1 Corinthians 1:22 -- "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom."


6.  The gift of tongue-speaking was intended as a confirmation for the initial giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

      A.  Unto the Jews.

Acts 2:1-4 -- "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. vAnd there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Acts 2:14-18 -- "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: for these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.  But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: and on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy."

(Note: NOT every time after this wherein these individual were filled with the Spirit did they speak in tongues, but only on this initial giving of the indwelling Holy Spirit.)

      B.  Unto the Gentiles.

Acts 10:44-47 -- "While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the wordAnd they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy GhostFor they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.  Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

Acts 11:15-17 -- "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.  Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy GhostForasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"

      C.  Unto the Disciples of John, upon their actual faith in Jesus as the Christ.

Acts 19:1-7 -- "And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?  And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.  And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized?  And they said, Unto John’s baptism.  Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.  And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.  And all the men were about twelve."


So then, now we must ask the question -- Does the Biblically revealed purpose for the sign gifts in general and for the gift of tongue-speaking in specific grant the need of its continuing usage for the sake of any and all people groups who have not previously heard the gospel message?

In addition, I would add another question for consideration -- Which has more power to draw the hearts of lost sinners unto faith in Christ for eternal salvation, the gospel message itself from God's Word or the working of signs and miraculous wonders?

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
grammar

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