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Jordan Kurecki

Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?

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2 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Well this thread opened up a whole can of worms..

Brother Jordan,

At the present I am still planning, as time will permit, to respond unto your original posting (as per your private request).  However, at present I am not planning to deal with the "can" or the "worms" that have already occurred.

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30 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Jordan,

At the present I am still planning, as time will permit, to respond unto your original posting (as per your private request).  However, at present I am not planning to deal with the "can" or the "worms" that have already occurred.

Brother that is fine. I’m not really interested in the can of worms that has been opened. 

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Much of the problem comes from not rightly dividing God's word. 

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom" (1 Cor.1:22)

We see also in Mark 16:17-18 the following:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Sadly, many have erroneously believed that the sign gifts applies to themselves in this current church/grace age. After all it does say "And these signs shall follow them that believe". We believe, right? Yet that scripture is not written about us church/grace-age believers.
There have been many who have attempted to force these sign gifts to fit in the grace/church age and claim them (erroneously) for themselves. Those who've taken up serpents (and been bitten and died). Those who drink poison ("any deadly thing") and have died also. Those who have tried to claim they have the"gift of healing" (and notice that there is nothing there requiring the recipient of the healing to have faith... rather instead that "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Not maybe recover, not might recover, not recover if they have enough faith, no... "they shall recover" (no doubt about it). If they truly had that gift they would go to any given hospital and heal the children in cancer wards. And if they had the gift of healing then those children would definitely recover, not maybe reocver, but "shall recover".

NONE have the sign gifts to do such things today. Isn't it interesting that the sign gifts that are claimed by charlatans today are those which cannot be proven. They claim to be able to speak in tongues (yet don't even follow the scriptural rules for the time when sign gifts were in effect, prior to the canon of scripture being complete).  

What were those rules for that time period? Look at 1 Cor.14:27-28 "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."

The holy roller, name it and claim it, blab it and grab it crowd doesn't even follow scriptural mandate for speaking in tongues. (Regardless of the fact that it's no longer possible today). Every video I've seen of those who CLAIM they can speak in tongues is a disorganized melee of babbling incoherently by dozens of people. Definitely more than three persons. None interpreting. No order, but chaos. 

1 Cor.14:33 (same chapter) "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

Now we know that they truly cannot speak in tongues. The sign gifts were meant for Israel. It was the Jews who required signs. Those sign gifts ended when the canon of scripture was perfected and closed. 

1 Cor.13:8 tells us that there would come a time when prophesying would fail, when tongues would cease. Verse 10 tells us that "...that which is in part shall be done away." When? When "that which is perfect is come". What which is perfect? God's word in full, which ended with the Revelation of Christ given to John on the isle of Patmos. There is no reason for additional "prophesy" since His prophetic word is perfect and complete.

Speaking of false prophecy: How sad that someone would actually set a date, make a calendar, and claim an actual date.  Though not surprising given the unsound doctrine that's being accepted today in the perilous last days. Harold Camping move over, looks like Marilyn has a new date set! Maybe she can get a video going like Scottie Clarke did last year (claiming Sept 23rd, then keep moving the date when it doesn't happen). Do these people realize how they give a black eye to God's word? How when they lead both unbelievers and babes in Christ into buying these false dates, when the date comes and goes (as it always does) then those who are "...tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive". 

If it were up to some of these holy rollers they would be attempting to add to the canon of scripture their latest "dreams and visions" nonsense from the devil (2 Cor.11:14-15). Every other day is another quack claiming to be a "prophet", calling themselves an "apostle", or other heresies.  Too many to even refute now days. No matter, after the first or second admonition reject (Titus 3:9-11). These really are the perilous last days (2 Tim.3:1-7, 13), so we can expect those who are deceived to continue to wax worse and worse. 

What gifts remains today?

1 Cor.13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Maranatha!

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Hi Ronda,

If you or any one cares to look at my blog series of the `Tribulation Calendar`(Worthy Christian Forum) then they will see that I have NOT made a date for the rapture. That is NOT in God`s word, What I have done is put all of the numbers concerning Israel and the nations on a time line and then fitted then in to God`s festivals. That is just a study of eschatology using ONLY God`s numbers and His festivals.

Some people jump to conclusions and haven`t even read what I wrote. The dates (plural) are for the various events that God gives numbers for in His word.

regards, Marilyn.

BTW Sorry Jordan that your thread ha been side tracked by `witch hunters.`  

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18 hours ago, Ronda said:

Much of the problem comes from not rightly dividing God's word. 

"For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom" (1 Cor.1:22)

We see also in Mark 16:17-18 the following:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

Sadly, many have erroneously believed that the sign gifts applies to themselves in this current church/grace age. After all it does say "And these signs shall follow them that believe". We believe, right? Yet that scripture is not written about us church/grace-age believers.
There have been many who have attempted to force these sign gifts to fit in the grace/church age and claim them (erroneously) for themselves. Those who've taken up serpents (and been bitten and died). Those who drink poison ("any deadly thing") and have died also. Those who have tried to claim they have the"gift of healing" (and notice that there is nothing there requiring the recipient of the healing to have faith... rather instead that "they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Not maybe recover, not might recover, not recover if they have enough faith, no... "they shall recover" (no doubt about it). If they truly had that gift they would go to any given hospital and heal the children in cancer wards. And if they had the gift of healing then those children would definitely recover, not maybe reocver, but "shall recover".

NONE have the sign gifts to do such things today. Isn't it interesting that the sign gifts that are claimed by charlatans today are those which cannot be proven. They claim to be able to speak in tongues (yet don't even follow the scriptural rules for the time when sign gifts were in effect, prior to the canon of scripture being complete).  

What were those rules for that time period? Look at 1 Cor.14:27-28 "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."

The holy roller, name it and claim it, blab it and grab it crowd doesn't even follow scriptural mandate for speaking in tongues. (Regardless of the fact that it's no longer possible today). Every video I've seen of those who CLAIM they can speak in tongues is a disorganized melee of babbling incoherently by dozens of people. Definitely more than three persons. None interpreting. No order, but chaos. 

1 Cor.14:33 (same chapter) "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

Now we know that they truly cannot speak in tongues. The sign gifts were meant for Israel. It was the Jews who required signs. Those sign gifts ended when the canon of scripture was perfected and closed. 

1 Cor.13:8 tells us that there would come a time when prophesying would fail, when tongues would cease. Verse 10 tells us that "...that which is in part shall be done away." When? When "that which is perfect is come". What which is perfect? God's word in full, which ended with the Revelation of Christ given to John on the isle of Patmos. There is no reason for additional "prophesy" since His prophetic word is perfect and complete.

Speaking of false prophecy: How sad that someone would actually set a date, make a calendar, and claim an actual date.  Though not surprising given the unsound doctrine that's being accepted today in the perilous last days. Harold Camping move over, looks like Marilyn has a new date set! Maybe she can get a video going like Scottie Clarke did last year (claiming Sept 23rd, then keep moving the date when it doesn't happen). Do these people realize how they give a black eye to God's word? How when they lead both unbelievers and babes in Christ into buying these false dates, when the date comes and goes (as it always does) then those who are "...tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive". 

If it were up to some of these holy rollers they would be attempting to add to the canon of scripture their latest "dreams and visions" nonsense from the devil (2 Cor.11:14-15). Every other day is another quack claiming to be a "prophet", calling themselves an "apostle", or other heresies.  Too many to even refute now days. No matter, after the first or second admonition reject (Titus 3:9-11). These really are the perilous last days (2 Tim.3:1-7, 13), so we can expect those who are deceived to continue to wax worse and worse. 

What gifts remains today?

1 Cor.13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

Maranatha!

A necessary rebuke IMO

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My concern is this...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly proclaimed that no man knows of that day or hour; in which, he will return...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly compared himself to the master of the house and explicitly said that his servants didn't know if he would return at "even", "midnight", the "cockcrowing", or "morning"...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly said that he would return when we think not...

I would be overtly hesitant to proclaim that I believed that he would return upon a certain day...and furthermore...upon a certain day at evening.

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23 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

My concern is this...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly proclaimed that no man knows of that day or hour; in which, he will return...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly compared himself to the master of the house and explicitly said that his servants didn't know if he would return at "even", "midnight", the "cockcrowing", or "morning"...

Since the Lord Jesus Christ explicitly said that he would return when we think not...

I would be overtly hesitant to proclaim that I believed that he would return upon a certain day...and furthermore...upon a certain day at evening.

this is probably a rabbit trail, but one I would like to pursue.

According to 1 Corinthians 15 the rapture is a mystery that was not revealed. How then can a statement in Matthew 24 about no man knowing the day or hour be applicable to the rapture? if Matthew 24: 36 is the rapture, how come we don't also apply Matthew 24:29-31 also to the rapture? 

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1 hour ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

this is probably a rabbit trail, but one I would like to pursue.

According to 1 Corinthians 15 the rapture is a mystery that was not revealed. How then can a statement in Matthew 24 about no man knowing the day or hour be applicable to the rapture? if Matthew 24: 36 is the rapture, how come we don't also apply Matthew 24:29-31 also to the rapture? 

I apologize if my post wasn't clear. My post wasn't about the "Rapture".

I was actually referring to scriptures found in both Mark and Matthew. However, my personal view is that both accounts are referring to when the Lord Jesus Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation Period...not the "Rapture".

EDITED TO ADD: In other words, I can't answer your question since I believe the scriptures (in question) have nothing to do with the "Rapture".

Edited by No Nicolaitans

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On ‎3‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 3:25 PM, Jordan Kurecki said:

1. Does the cessation of spiritual gifts hinge on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? What other passages of the bible teach cessationism of the sign gifts?

For an initial posting concerning my answer to the original posting, I would state that 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 is (from my perspective) the foundational passage concerning the Biblical teaching on the cessation of the sign gifts.  I would present such for the following reasons:

1.  This passage DIRECTLY indicates the cessation for some of the gifts.  This is rarely disputed, for most acknowledge this declaration as such.  Rather, that which is generally disputed is not the reality of the cessation, but the timing of the cessation.

2.  This passage is located within the most extensive Biblical teaching concerning spiritual gifts, since that teaching extends in 1 Corinthians from chapter 12-14.  Indeed, the entire context, including the "charity" teaching in 1 Corinthians 13, is all about the matter and ministry of spiritual gifts.

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While I will agree that many of the gifts have cease.  And the Rhema /  Written Word of God is perfect our understanding is still blurry on the Bible.

Whereas when we see the writer of Hebrews view on Jesus Christ and His First Coming compare to His Second it is most interesting.

So Christ was offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.   Hebrews 9:28

So we see Jesus was yes perfect but at His First Coming He took my and everyone else sins upon Him.  Of course because He bear our sins He had our sins (not His own). Yet when He comes the second time He comes without ours sins so that He is Perfect.

John tells us when Jesus appears again we will be like Him for we will see as He is, I John 3:1-2.   Paul states of this time as when our vile bodies will be change like His glorious body, Philippians 3:20-21.

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Concerning 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 - A Contextual Introduction

As I stated in my previous posting, this passage is located within the most extensive Biblical teaching concerning spiritual gifts, since that teaching extends throughout 1 Corinthians 12-14, including the "charity" teaching in 1 Corinthians 13.  Indeed, all three chapters are about the matter and ministry of spiritual gifts.  Even so, I would present a contextual outline for the entirety of these three chapters, as follows:

1.  The Singular Divine Source for the Diversity of Spiritual Gifts (1 Corinthian 12:1-11)
2.  The Importance for the Diversity of Spiritual Gifts within Christ's Body (1 Corinthians 12:12-18)
3.  The Importance for Unity in the Administration of Spiritual Gifts (1 Corinthians 12:19-27)
4.  The Divine Order of Importance for Different Spiritual Gifts (1 Corinthians 12:28-31)
5.  The Importance of Charity in the Administration of Spiritual Gifts (1 Corinthians 13:1-7)
6.  The Superiority of Charity in the Administration of Spiritual Gifts (1 Corinthians 13:8-13)
7.  The Superiority of Prophesying over Tongue-speaking for Edification (1 Corinthians 14:1-12)
8.  The Superiority of Clarity and Understanding over Tongue-speaking (1 Corinthians 14:13-25)
9.  Biblical Regulations for the Administration of Prophesying and Tongue-speaking (1 Corinthians 14:26-40)

So then, the passage under questions and its teaching concerning cessation is located with point six of this outline -- The Superiority of Charity in the Administration of Spiritual Gifts.  Thus whatever the teaching of this passage concerning the cessation of prophesying, tongue-speaking, and knowledge, its primary intention is to demonstrate the inferiority of these spiritual gifts in relation to the superiority of charity in spiritual motivation.

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Concerning 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 - A Thematic Outline

As I indicated in my previous posting, the primary intention of 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 is to demonstrate the inferiority of spiritual gifts in relation to the superiority of charity (godly love toward others) as the spiritual motivation for the administration of spiritual gifts.  Thus 1 Corinthians 13:8 begins with the declaration, "Charity never faileth."  Throughout all of eternity charity shall continue, for the Lord our God Himself IS characterized by love eternally.  In contrast to this, 1 Corinthians 13:8 further indicates that the spiritual gifts of prophecy, tongues-speaking, and knowledge shall at some point come to an end.  Concerning this truth of cessation, the outline of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 would be as follows:

1.  The Declaration of Cessation (1 Corinthians 13:8)

"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." 

2.  The Explanation of Cessation (1 Corinthians 13:9-10)

"For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." 

3.  The Illustration of Cessation (1 Corinthians 13:11)

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

4.  The Description of Cessation (1 Corinthians 13:12)

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

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Concerning 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 - The Primary Point

1 Corinthians 13:8 begins with the declaration, “Charity never faileth.”  The remainder of the verse then presents the contrasting truth, “But whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”  The nature of this contrast indicates that this truth concerns the matter of longevity in usefulness and importance.  This then is the primary point of 1 Corinthians 13:8-13 – that the motivation of charity (of godly love toward one another) in the administration of spiritual gifts is more important than the administration of the gifts themselves.  The evidence for this truth is that the usefulness and importance of charity shall never fail (shall never come to an end), even throughout the eternal future.  On the other hand, the usefulness and necessity of these spiritual gifts shall indeed come to an end (whenever that end might be).  As important and useful as the administration of spiritual gifts may be for the body of Christ, the church, the motivation of charity is “a more excellent way.” (See 1 Corinthians 12:31) 

Yeah, although we may “speak with the tongues of men and of angels [a reference unto the spiritual gift of tongues-speaking], and have not charity,” we are “become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.” (See 1 Corinthians 13:1)  Furthermore, although we might “have the gift of prophecy [a reference unto the spiritual gift of prophecy], and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge [a reference unto the spiritual gift of special-knowledge];” and although we might “have all faith,” so that we “could remove mountains [possibly a reference unto the spiritual gift of miracles], and have not charity,” we are “nothing.” (See 1 Corinthians 13:2)  Finally, although we might “bestow all [our] goods to feed the poor [possibly a reference unto the spiritual gift of helps],” and although we might “give [our] body to be burned, and have not charity,” it profits us absolutely “nothing.” (See 1 Corinthians 13:3)

In fact, 1 Corinthians 13:13 concludes this passage with the declaration, “And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.”  Among the three great spiritual characteristics of faith, hope, and charity, the greatest of these three concerning the matter of longevity in usefulness and importance is charity.  In the essence of His eternal character, 1 John 4:16 declares that “God is love.”  However, there is no declaration of Scripture which indicates that the essence of God’s eternal character is faith or hope.  Furthermore, although the characteristics of faith, hope, and charity are all absolutely necessary for our godly walk in this life upon the earth, when we in the eternal life to come within the eternal presence of the Lord our God, we will no longer need the characteristics of faith and hope.  Indeed, by their very definitions, faith and hope will no longer be needed.  “Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Hebrews 11:1)  “For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?” (Romans 8:24)  On the other hand, the Biblical characteristic shall continue throughout the eternal future.  Just as godly love existed in the eternal past between the Persons of the triune Godhead, even so godly love shall ever continue to exist between us believers and the Godhead throughout the everlasting future of the perfect, heavenly fellowship.

So then, as we study the doctrine of cessation within 1 Corinthians 13:8-12, if we lose sight of the truth that charity (godly love toward one another) is “a more excellent way” even than the administration of spiritual gifts, then we will have fallen short of the primary Biblical truth that is intended through this passage.  Let us take heed that we not fall short.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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23 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yeah, although we may “speak with the tongues of men and of angels [a reference unto the spiritual gift of tongues-speaking], and have not charity,” we are “become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.” (See 1 Corinthians 13:1)  Furthermore, although we might “have the gift of prophecy [a reference unto the spiritual gift of prophecy], and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge [a reference unto the spiritual gift of special-knowledge];” and although we might “have all faith,” so that we “could remove mountains [possibly a reference unto the spiritual gift of miracles], and have not charity,” we are “nothing.” (See 1 Corinthians 13:2)  Finally, although we might “bestow all [our] goods to feed the poor [possibly a reference unto the spiritual gift of helps],” and although we might “give [our] body to be burned, and have not charity,” it profits us absolutely “nothing.” (See 1 Corinthians 13:3)

A question on the above Brother Scott..  1 ¶  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling Cymbal  Is Paul actually saying he speaks with the tongues of angels?  

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17 hours ago, Invicta said:

A question on the above Brother Scott..  1 ¶  Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling Cymbal  Is Paul actually saying he speaks with the tongues of angels?  

Brother David,

It appears to me (although I cannot provide substantial proofs thereof) that the apostle Paul is employing a hyperbolic extreme in order to make his point concerning the absolute importance and necessity for charity (godly love toward one another) in the administration of spiritual gifts.  It appears to me as if the apostle is saying -- Although I might possess and administer the spiritual gift of tongues-speaking unto the nth degree, including the ability to speak even with the tongues of angels, but do not have charity, all of my tongues-speaking is become worthless, "as sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal."  

My evidence for this position is that it appears to follow with every point that the apostle makes within 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 --

1.  "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels . . . ."
2.  "And though I have the gift of prophecy . . . ."
3.  ". . . And understand all mysteries, and all knowledge . . . ."

4.  ". . . And though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains . . . ."
5.  "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor . . . ."
6.  ". . .
And though I give my body to be burned . . . ."

The first of these points is that under question.  The second and third of these points is a definite Biblical possibility for the apostle Paul.  The fourth of these points is possible for the apostle, but I am not aware of any recorded indication that he ever removed a mountain.  The fifth of these points is also possible for the apostle, but I am not aware of any recorded indication that he ever actually did this.  The sixth of these points appears to be the least probable for the apostle.  Although he did pour out his life in a martyrs death under persecution for the sake of Christ, I am not aware that it was through the means of burning.  On the other hand, if it might be demonstrated that the apostle did in fact engage in all of the other activities, then this would provide evidence that he also engaged fully in the first activity.

Such is my best response at the present time.  I pray that it was of some help.

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I agree with Bro. Scott, although my reply is not as eloquent. I read the statement from the Apostle Paul; "Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling Cymbal," as being and example, not an actual fact.

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http://revivalfocus.org/q38-gifts-spirit/

"

In the early twentieth century, with the rise of Pentecostalism, some placed a focus on the gifts of the Spirit. The gift of tongues especially came into prominence. For many this gift was the sure sign you were filled with the Spirit. Later the Charismatic Movement took this paradigm beyond denominational lines. Ironically, the focus on the gifts of the Spirit subtlety took the focus off the Spirit of Jesus. Where this wrong focus really entered in, as with any wrong focus, it hinders real life in the Spirit.

In reaction to this emphasis, others claimed the gifts of the Spirit ended with the apostolic era. For them the gifts have completely and forever ceased. In this reaction a subtle deemphasis of the Spirit crept in, perhaps unwittingly. This minimization of the Spirit has robbed many of real life and power.

So which position is right? I don’t believe either one is fully accurate. On the one hand the focus should not be on the blessings, but rather on the Blesser. On the other hand the Holy Spirit did not leave when the apostles died. Church history repeatedly demonstrates times when the Spirit worked like He did in Acts. Often when the gospel penetrated a new area, it has been accompanied by the miraculous to substantiate the message. But when the gospel took hold, and especially when the Word of God was made available to a people group, then the miraculous diminished, being replaced with a more sure Word, which cannot be counterfeited.

Sometimes God sovereignly moves miraculously for the sake of the gospel. Sometimes God stirs up faith within us to trust Him for the miraculous. Either way, God is still God. He can do what He pleases. If God leads us to trust Him for some miracle, then we must trust Him.

For example, if the Spirit leads to faith for a given healing, then He must be trusted to heal. God still heals. Many modern day testimonies demonstrate this reality. This is not the same as the gift of healing, which implies one has this gift for life. In fact, the Scripture never says the “gift of healing.” It says the “gifts of healing.” This implies God gives faith for healing in given instances—but not necessarily every instance. Even the Apostle Paul left Trophimus at Miletus ill."

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20 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

In the early twentieth century, with the rise of Pentecostalism

Pentecostalism did not start in the early twentieth century,.  There was a "gifts" movement in England and Scotland in the early 19th century under the ministry of Edward Irving.  Although Irving died in about 1833, the movement continued well into the 20th century.  My dad said one of his sisters attended one of their meetings in the 1920's.  

Of course the Irvingites  were not the first to claim that.  In the  late 1600's there were the Camisards, or French Prophets. When they made war with the state, they were more or less wiped out, but some came here to England.   Charles Wesley wrote in his journal that he shared a room with one of the French Prophets who "gobbled like  turkey cock all night."   There is 

I have copies some  books written about the time of Irving.  One is Modern  Claims to the Extraordinary Gifts of the Holy Spirit. by Rev Wm Goode 2nd edition, 1834  (That is the short title, the Evangelical Library in London has it under a shorter title, Goode's Modern Claims.  This was republished several years ago with modern updates under the title of Charismatic Confusion.  The first edition of Goode's book is available online somewhere. 

 

Brother Scott. That is what I believed,  I always understood it to mean "If I were to speak" etc,

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Concerning 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 -- A Grammatical Consideration

Yes, 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 generates a number of interpretational and doctrinal questions.  Yet it also provides some clear grammatical and contextual elements of truth.  In a future posting we may consider those interpretational and doctrinal questions, but in this posting let us consider the more clear grammatical and contextual elements of truth.

1 Corinthians 13:8 – The Declaration of Cessation

1 Corinthians 13:8 clearly reveals the truth of cessation in relation to three particular spiritual gifts.  “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”  This statement is not speaking about the declared prophecies themselves, for no true prophecy from the Lord our God can ever fail to be fulfilled.  Rather, this is speaking about the spiritual gift of prophecies.  Furthermore, this is not saying that all human languages shall cease to exist, or that all human knowledge shall vanish into nothingness.  Rather, this is speaking about the spiritual gift of tongues-speaking and the spiritual gift of special-knowledge.  At some time and in some manner, the spiritual gift of prophecies shall no longer be.  At some time and in some manner, the spiritual gift of tongues-speaking shall no longer be.  At some time and in some manner, the spiritual gift of special-knowledge shall no longer be.  Yet this verse itself does not reveal the specific time or manner for the cessation of these spiritual gifts.

On the other hand, the Greek grammar of this verse (for those who are willing to consider it) does reveal further truth.  The Greek verb that is translated by the phrase, “Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail,” and also by the phrase, “Whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away,” is the same Greek verb in the same verb tense and the same verb voice.  Both of these cases are translated from the Greek verb “καταργέω” (“katargeo,” Strong’s #2673) in the future tense and the passive voice.  The verb basically means “to be, or render completely idle, useless, inoperative.”  When used in the passive voice, it means that some force (someone or something) apart from the subject of the verb is causing that subject of the verb to become completely idle, useless, inoperative.  As such, 1 Corinthians 13:8 reveals that at some time in the future to the apostle’s writing of the epistle, the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would be made completely idle, useless, inoperative by some outside force (by someone or something else).  In fact, 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 then reveals that these spiritual gifts will be made completely idle, useless, inoperative by “that which is perfect” when it comes because “that which is perfect” will replace these spiritual gifts with a more perfect operation.

However, the Greek verb that is translated by the phrase, “Whether there be tongues, they shall cease,” is a different Greek verb in the same verb tense, but a different verb voice than the other two cases.  In this case, the Greek verb is “παύω” (“pauo,” Strong’s #3973) in the future tense and in the Greek middle voice (a voice that English grammar does not possess).  This Greek verb basically means “to cause to cease” when it is used in the active voice and “to cease by one’s self” when it is used in the middle voice.  As such, 1 Corinthians reveals that at some time in the future to the apostle’s writing of the epistle, the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking would simply cease all on its own, not because it would be replaced by something else, but simply because its reason for usefulness would cease to exist.  It is as if the Lord God built into the gift of tongue-speaking an expiration date, after which the gift of tongue-speaking would no longer be viable.

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 – The Explanation of Cessation

Having revealed in 1 Corinthians 13:8 that the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would be made completely idle, useless, inoperative by an outside force, 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 then reveals the manner by which this cessation would occur.  “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”  First, this passage reveals that both the spiritual gifts of knowledge and of prophecies are in some manner only “in part” by nature.  (However, this passage says nothing further concerning the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking.)  Second, this passage reveals that these “in part” spiritual gifts would “be done away” at the specific time when “that which is perfect is come.”  Nothing more is stated in the verse to define any further what “that which is perfect” actually is or when the time of its coming would actually be.  However, the Greek grammar for the phrase, “that which is perfect,” and for the phrase, “that which is in part,” is constructed with the same Greek neuter construction.  Even so, it appears that the character of “that which is perfect” and the character of “that which is in part” (being the spiritual gifts of knowledge and of prophecies) are in some manner the same, although the spiritual gifts of knowledge and of prophecies (“that which is in part”) would carry that characteristic only “in part,” whereas “that which is perfect” would carry that characteristic in perfection.  It also appears that the spiritual gifts of knowledge and of prophecies would “be done away” by “that which is perfect” when it would come specifically because “that which is perfect” would replace these spiritual gifts with something more perfect than they could accomplish.  At this point, it is worthy to notice that the phrase “shall be done away” is again translated from the same Greek verb (καταργέω, “katargeo,” Strong’s #2673) in the same future tense and passive voice as we found within 1 Corinthians 13:8 in relation to the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge.

1 Corinthians 13:11 – The Illustration of Cessation

Having made a declaration in 1 Corinthians 13:8 concerning the truth of cessation for the spiritual gifts of prophecies, of tongues-speaking, and of knowledge, and having given an explanation in 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 concerning the removal and replacement of the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge by the coming of “that which is perfect,” the apostle provides an illustration in 1 Corinthians 13:11 concerning the principle of cessation through replacement.  “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”  Herein the apostle provided an illustration by referencing two different stages of his own life, the stage when he was a child and the stage when he became a man.  We would recognize that this is simply an illustration because the apostle presented both stages in the past tense.  Both the phrase, “When I was child,” and the phrase, “when I became a man,” are past tense.  However, according to the grammar of 1 Corinthians 13:10, the coming of “that which is perfect” was still future tense in relation to the time of the apostle’s writing.  Thus 1 Corinthians 3:11 is intended, not as a direct description for the truths of 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, but only as an illustration for those truths. 

Yet a Biblical illustration is intended to provide some clarity for the Biblical truths that it illustrates.  So then, for what truths does this illustration provide clarity?  First, it appears clear that this illustration is intended to illustrate the two stages concerning the “that which is in part” stage and concerning the “that which is perfect” stage.  Thus the stage of childhood in the illustration would illustrate the stage of “that which is in part,” and the stage of manhood in the illustration would illustrate the stage of “that which is perfect.”  Indeed, the stage in the illustration when the apostle “became a man” would illustrate the moment “when that which is perfect is come” and when thereby everything changes.

Second, concerning the stage of childhood, this illustration specifically references the speaking, understanding, and thinking of a child.  In contrast to this, the apostle indicated that when he entered the stage of manhood, he “put away” these “childish things.”  This would mean that when he entered the stage of manhood, he put away the speaking, understanding, and thinking of a child; and this would imply that he put away these childish things by replacing them with the speaking, understanding, and thinking of manhood.  Even so, this would seem to illustrate that the stage of “that which is in part” (that is – the stage when the spiritual gifts of prophecies and knowledge are active) only provides a “childish” level of spiritual thinking, understanding, and speaking.  In addition, this would seem to illustrate that the stage when “that which is perfect is come” would provide an “adultish” level of spiritual thinking, understanding, and speaking, specifically in contrast and advancement to the previous “childish” level.  Indeed, this would seem to indicate that this entire matter of truth between “that which is in part” and “that which is perfect” concerns the matter of spiritual thinking, understanding, and speaking. 

Finally, the illustration seems to reveal the importance of active willingness to put away from us “that which is in part” (that is – the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge) when “that which is perfect” has actually come.  In the illustration, the apostle does not state that when he became a man, the childish things were put away from him by an outside force.  Rather, in the illustration the apostle indicated that when he became a man, he himself actively and willingly put away from him the childish things.  So then, when that which is perfect has come (whatever and whenever that may be), we must no longer seek after the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge.  When the stage of manhood has come, we must actively and willingly put aside the things from the stage of childhood.

1 Corinthians 13:12 – The Description of Cessation

Although questions are generated throughout the whole passage, 1 Corinthians 13:12 is probably the verse that generates the most number of questions.  “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”  Herein we find two parallel contrasts between a time that is designated as the “now” time and a time that is designated as the “then” time.  On the one hand, the “now” time is described as a time of seeing “through [by means of] a glass [a mirror] darkly [less clearly]” and as a time of knowing “in part.  On the other hand, the “then” time is described as a time of seeing with “face to face” clarity and as a time of knowing even as we are also known.  However, what exactly this means is a part of the questions that are generated by this verse.

Now, these grammatical and contextual considerations provide us with parameters for understanding the teaching of this passage.  However, there still remains a number of interpretational questions for our consideration.

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3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Concerning 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 -- A Grammatical Consideration

 

Yes, 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 generates a number of interpretational and doctrinal questions.  Yet it also provides some clear grammatical and contextual elements of truth.  In a future posting we may consider those interpretational and doctrinal questions, but in this posting let us consider the more clear grammatical and contextual elements of truth.

 

1 Corinthians 13:8 – The Declaration of Cessation

 

1 Corinthians 13:8 clearly reveals the truth of cessation in relation to three particular spiritual gifts.  “Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.”  This statement is not speaking about the declared prophecies themselves, for no true prophecy from the Lord our God can ever fail to be fulfilled.  Rather, this is speaking about the spiritual gift of prophecies.  Furthermore, this is not saying that all human languages shall cease to exist, or that all human knowledge shall vanish into nothingness.  Rather, this is speaking about the spiritual gift of tongues-speaking and the spiritual gift of special-knowledge.  At some time and in some manner, the spiritual gift of prophecies shall no longer be.  At some time and in some manner, the spiritual gift of tongues-speaking shall no longer be.  At some time and in some manner, the spiritual gift of special-knowledge shall no longer be.  Yet this verse itself does not reveal the specific time or manner for the cessation of these spiritual gifts.

 

On the other hand, the Greek grammar of this verse (for those who are willing to consider it) does reveal further truth.  The Greek verb that is translated by the phrase, “Whether there be prophecies, they shall fail,” and also by the phrase, “Whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away,” is the same Greek verb in the same verb tense and the same verb voice.  Both of these cases are translated from the Greek verb “καταργέω” (“katargeo,” Strong’s #2673) in the future tense and the passive voice.  The verb basically means “to be, or render completely idle, useless, inoperative.”  When used in the passive voice, it means that some force (someone or something) apart from the subject of the verb is causing that subject of the verb to become completely idle, useless, inoperative.  As such, 1 Corinthians 13:8 reveals that at some time in the future to the apostle’s writing of the epistle, the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would be made completely idle, useless, inoperative by some outside force (by someone or something else).  In fact, 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 then reveals that these spiritual gifts will be made completely idle, useless, inoperative by “that which is perfect” when it comes because “that which is perfect” will replace these spiritual gifts with a more perfect operation.

 

However, the Greek verb that is translated by the phrase, “Whether there be tongues, they shall cease,” is a different Greek verb in the same verb tense, but a different verb voice than the other two cases.  In this case, the Greek verb is “παύω” (“pauo,” Strong’s #3973) in the future tense and in the Greek middle voice (a voice that English grammar does not possess).  This Greek verb basically means “to cause to cease” when it is used in the active voice and “to cease by one’s self” when it is used in the middle voice.  As such, 1 Corinthians reveals that at some time in the future to the apostle’s writing of the epistle, the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking would simply cease all on its own, not because it would be replaced by something else, but simply because its reason for usefulness would cease to exist.  It is as if the Lord God built into the gift of tongue-speaking an expiration date, after which the gift of tongue-speaking would no longer be viable.

 

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 – The Explanation of Cessation

 

Having revealed in 1 Corinthians 13:8 that the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge would be made completely idle, useless, inoperative by an outside force, 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 then reveals the manner by which this cessation would occur.  “For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.”  First, this passage reveals that both the spiritual gifts of knowledge and of prophecies are in some manner only “in part” by nature.  (However, this passage says nothing further concerning the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking.)  Second, this passage reveals that these “in part” spiritual gifts would “be done away” at the specific time when “that which is perfect is come.”  Nothing more is stated in the verse to define any further what “that which is perfect” actually is or when the time of its coming would actually be.  However, the Greek grammar for the phrase, “that which is perfect,” and for the phrase, “that which is in part,” is constructed with the same Greek neuter construction.  Even so, it appears that the character of “that which is perfect” and the character of “that which is in part” (being the spiritual gifts of knowledge and of prophecies) are in some manner the same, although the spiritual gifts of knowledge and of prophecies (“that which is in part”) would carry that characteristic only “in part,” whereas “that which is perfect” would carry that characteristic in perfection.  It also appears that the spiritual gifts of knowledge and of prophecies would “be done away” by “that which is perfect” when it would come specifically because “that which is perfect” would replace these spiritual gifts with something more perfect than they could accomplish.  At this point, it is worthy to notice that the phrase “shall be done away” is again translated from the same Greek verb (καταργέω, “katargeo,” Strong’s #2673) in the same future tense and passive voice as we found within 1 Corinthians 13:8 in relation to the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge.

 

1 Corinthians 13:11 – The Illustration of Cessation

 

Having made a declaration in 1 Corinthians 13:8 concerning the truth of cessation for the spiritual gifts of prophecies, of tongues-speaking, and of knowledge, and having given an explanation in 1 Corinthians 13:9-10 concerning the removal and replacement of the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge by the coming of “that which is perfect,” the apostle provides an illustration in 1 Corinthians 13:11 concerning the principle of cessation through replacement.  “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.”  Herein the apostle provided an illustration by referencing two different stages of his own life, the stage when he was a child and the stage when he became a man.  We would recognize that this is simply an illustration because the apostle presented both stages in the past tense.  Both the phrase, “When I was child,” and the phrase, “when I became a man,” are past tense.  However, according to the grammar of 1 Corinthians 13:10, the coming of “that which is perfect” was still future tense in relation to the time of the apostle’s writing.  Thus 1 Corinthians 3:11 is intended, not as a direct description for the truths of 1 Corinthians 13:8-10, but only as an illustration for those truths. 

 

Yet a Biblical illustration is intended to provide some clarity for the Biblical truths that it illustrates.  So then, for what truths does this illustration provide clarity?  First, it appears clear that this illustration is intended to illustrate the two stages concerning the “that which is in part” stage and concerning the “that which is perfect” stage.  Thus the stage of childhood in the illustration would illustrate the stage of “that which is in part,” and the stage of manhood in the illustration would illustrate the stage of “that which is perfect.”  Indeed, the stage in the illustration when the apostle “became a man” would illustrate the moment “when that which is perfect is come” and when thereby everything changes.

 

Second, concerning the stage of childhood, this illustration specifically references the speaking, understanding, and thinking of a child.  In contrast to this, the apostle indicated that when he entered the stage of manhood, he “put away” these “childish things.”  This would mean that when he entered the stage of manhood, he put away the speaking, understanding, and thinking of a child; and this would imply that he put away these childish things by replacing them with the speaking, understanding, and thinking of manhood.  Even so, this would seem to illustrate that the stage of “that which is in part” (that is – the stage when the spiritual gifts of prophecies and knowledge are active) only provides a “childish” level of spiritual thinking, understanding, and speaking.  In addition, this would seem to illustrate that the stage when “that which is perfect is come” would provide an “adultish” level of spiritual thinking, understanding, and speaking, specifically in contrast and advancement to the previous “childish” level.  Indeed, this would seem to indicate that this entire matter of truth between “that which is in part” and “that which is perfect” concerns the matter of spiritual thinking, understanding, and speaking. 

 

Finally, the illustration seems to reveal the importance of active willingness to put away from us “that which is in part” (that is – the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge) when “that which is perfect” has actually come.  In the illustration, the apostle does not state that when he became a man, the childish things were put away from him by an outside force.  Rather, in the illustration the apostle indicated that when he became a man, he himself actively and willingly put away from him the childish things.  So then, when that which is perfect has come (whatever and whenever that may be), we must no longer seek after the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge.  When the stage of manhood has come, we must actively and willingly put aside the things from the stage of childhood.

 

1 Corinthians 13:12 – The Description of Cessation

 

Although questions are generated throughout the whole passage, 1 Corinthians 13:12 is probably the verse that generates the most number of questions.  “For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.”  Herein we find two parallel contrasts between a time that is designated as the “now” time and a time that is designated as the “then” time.  On the one hand, the “now” time is described as a time of seeing “through [by means of] a glass [a mirror] darkly [less clearly]” and as a time of knowing “in part.  On the other hand, the “then” time is described as a time of seeing with “face to face” clarity and as a time of knowing even as we are also known.  However, what exactly this means is a part of the questions that are generated by this verse.

 

Now, these grammatical and contextual considerations provide us with parameters for understanding the teaching of this passage.  However, there still remains a number of interpretational questions for our consideration.

 

Interesting thoughts. When are you just going to write a commentary on the whole bible finally? I have not run into anyone with the ability to so clearly, mechanically, and precisely break down the scriptures like you do Pastor Markle, It is refreshing to see someone honestly handling the text and just actually expositing the word of God. I only wish the Lord would bestow a fraction of the same ability to look at the scriptures in the way God has so clearly gifted you. 

the biggest concern I find is in verse 12, the then we shall see face to face and be known even as also I am know. that is the troubling phrase to me.

 

I am still of the persuasion that you should write a book on hermeneutics and about handling the word of God.Sadly your approach to the scriptures seems foreign to a great many Independent Fundamental Baptists.

Edited by Jordan Kurecki

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On 4/24/2018 at 4:23 PM, Invicta said:

Pentecostalism did not start in the early twentieth century,.  There was a "gifts" movement in England and Scotland in the early 19th century under the ministry of Edward Irving.  Although Irving died in about 1833, the movement continued well into the 20th century.  My dad said one of his sisters attended one of their meetings in the 1920's.  

Of course the Irvingites  were not the first to claim that.  In the  late 1600's there were the Camisards, or French Prophets. When they made war with the state, they were more or less wiped out, but some came here to England.   Charles Wesley wrote in his journal that he shared a room with one of the French Prophets who "gobbled like  turkey cock all night."   There is 

I have copies some  books written about the time of Irving.  One is Modern  Claims to the Extraordinary Gifts of the Holy Spirit. by Rev Wm Goode 2nd edition, 1834  (That is the short title, the Evangelical Library in London has it under a shorter title, Goode's Modern Claims.  This was republished several years ago with modern updates under the title of Charismatic Confusion.  The first edition of Goode's book is available online somewhere. 

 

Brother Scott. That is what I believed,  I always understood it to mean "If I were to speak" etc,

Regardless of when the first instance was, it's clear that the 20th century marked the RISE of the Pentecostal movement in terms of popularity and being widespread. Now it has practically infested everywhere there is any kind of Christian presence. the Pentecostal movement has gained a whole lot of popularity in 3rd would countries. 

Edited by Jordan Kurecki

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2 minutes ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Regardless of when the first instance was, it's clear that the 20th century marked the RISE of the Pentecostal movement in terms of popularity and being widespread. Now it has practically infested everywhere there is any kind of Christian presence. the Pentecostal movement has gained a whole lot of popularity in 3rd would countries. 

I would say that Pentecostalism gained widespread popularity in the 1950's with the growth of the Charismatic movement into the mainstream churches.  It is interesting that this more or less coincided with the Shakers deciding to disband and send their gifts into the world.

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Concerning 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 – Some Interpretational Questions

Having considered in the previous posting the more clear grammatical and contextual elements of truth in this passage, let us now list some interpretational questions that this passage generates.

1 Corinthians 13:8 – The Declaration of Cessation

1.  Are the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge intended as a different category of spiritual gift from the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking?

2.  Are these spiritual gifts intended simply to stand for themselves alone, or are they intended to represent the entire category of spiritual gifts in which they might be classified?

3.  How is the spiritual gift of prophecies to be Biblically defined?

4.  How is the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking to be Biblically defined?

5.  How is the spiritual gift of knowledge to be Biblically defined?

6.  What is the reason of usefulness for the spiritual gift of tongue-speaking that shall cease to be necessary, whereby the spiritual gift itself would cease to be viable?

1 Corinthians 13:9-10 – The Explanation of Cessation

1.  What does the phrase “in part” mean in relation to its application unto the spiritual gifts of knowledge and of prophecies?

2.  What is “that which is perfect”?

3.  When is/was the coming of “that which is perfect”?

4.  Is this speaking concerning the spiritual gifts of knowledge and of prophecies in the context of all ages, or only in the context of the church age?

1 Corinthians 13:11 – The Illustration of Cessation

1.  In what manner does the speaking, understanding, thinking of childhood in contrast with the speaking, understanding, thinking of manhood relate to the time of “that which is in part” in contrast with the time of “that which is perfect”?

1 Corinthians 13:12 – The Description of Cessation

1.  Is the seeing “through a glass darkly” and the knowing “in part” still referencing the administration of the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge?

2.  Who or what are we seeing “through a glass darkly” or seeing “face to face”?

3.  What does it mean to see this person or thing “through a glass darkly”?

4.  What is the meaning of the phrase “even as also I am known”?

5.  Who or what is it that we shall know even as also we are known?

Now, how we proceed to answer these questions will affect our doctrinal conclusions from this passage.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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Pondering on 1 Corinthians 13:9-10, I thought of an additional question that should be added to the list of questions, as follows:

Is this speaking concerning the spiritual gifts of prophecies and of knowledge in the context of all ages, or only in the context of the church age?

I have edited my posting above to include this additional question.

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