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Jordan Kurecki

Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?

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On ‎12‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 3:25 AM, Jordan Kurecki said:

1. Does the cessation of spiritual gifts hinge on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? What other passages of the bible teach cessationism of the sign gifts?

2. Can we know with certainty based on Biblical exegesis that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scripture? or do we just say that because we have heard preachers teach that?

Hey Jordan, I hope you are satisfied with the answers to part 2 of this question?

As far as Part 1 is concerned:

Mar 16:15-20
(15)  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16)  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(17)  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18)  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(19)  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20)  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
 

This passage gives the purpose for the gifts:

(20)  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The purpose of the signs was to "confirm the Word with signs". Since the Word is the completion of that which is "in part", and no longer needs such confirmation - because we KNOW it is the Word of God, the signs are no longer needed.

This is hardly watertight Jordan, but it is another indicator, and maybe a passage that you can investigate further in regard to this matter.

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9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Eventually the Bible will be done away with as we shall see the Lord and not just read about Him.

 

Matthew 24:35 and several other similar: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Christ is the Word and the Word is Christ. If you know His Word, you know Him as you know yourself. This cannot be achieved by men's published books, it can only be achieved by saturation in God's Word. You must consume yourself with listening to Him just like most the professing consume themselves in temporal, self-interests.

 

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7 hours ago, wretched said:

Matthew 24:35 and several other similar: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Christ is the Word and the Word is Christ. If you know His Word, you know Him as you know yourself. This cannot be achieved by men's published books, it can only be achieved by saturation in God's Word. You must consume yourself with listening to Him just like most the professing consume themselves in temporal, self-interests.

 

Hi wretched,

Good thoughts there bro.

Now I am talking about the paper and ink, the bible as we have it. Of course the Lord is the Word, the very mind of God. Now as you said, we are told that the earth and the heavens will be burnt up, so that includes all the Bibles that are on earth. When we appear with the Lord in glory then we will not need to read about Him for we shall see Him face to face. All the historic, wisdom and knowledge and prophecies of God`s word will all have been fulfilled. The perfect will have come. Perfect relationship with Christ the Head of the Body.

regards, Marilyn.

 

5 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

(Isaiah 40:8) The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

(1 Peter 1:25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Hi NN,

Yes the Word of God stands forever, but not the paper and ink of our Bibles.

The true word is the very mind and thoughts of God. And how precious they are towards us.

regards, Marilyn.

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3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wretched,

Good thoughts there bro.

Now I am talking about the paper and ink, the bible as we have it. Of course the Lord is the Word, the very mind of God. Now as you said, we are told that the earth and the heavens will be burnt up, so that includes all the Bibles that are on earth. When we appear with the Lord in glory then we will not need to read about Him for we shall see Him face to face. All the historic, wisdom and knowledge and prophecies of God`s word will all have been fulfilled. The perfect will have come. Perfect relationship with Christ the Head of the Body.

regards, Marilyn.

 

I understand you sister,

Would you agree that the Word could be in our hearts now if we wanted it to? We could know God now as well as we know ourselves if we would only saturate ourselves in His Word now.

I have to disagree on the Written Word's absence in Heaven however. His Written Word is definitely in Heaven and will remain into eternity with Him.  

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Of course the Word of God will be their Judge (all 66 Books)), God the Father has left all Judgment to the Son and who is the Son again? The Word.)

But before that He will also use the Word of God out His mouth. He will speak it and His Words will smite the nations.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 
The Word is far more powerful than most believers realize and no Ma'am, not the paper and ink...the Words (every one of them). Can you agree with this?
 
 

 

 

Edited by wretched

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Hi  wretched,

Thank you for talking so graciously. I do appreciate that. And I so agree that `God`s word`s when He speaks are more powerful than we would ever know.`

God tells us that through His Son He made the worlds, and that by His most powerful word He continues to uphold it all.

`God,....has spoken to us by His Son,....by whom also He made the worlds;...and upholding all things by the word of His power...` (Heb. 1: 2 & 3)

Then we know that when the armies of the world surround Jerusalem that the Lord`s voice will cause the heavens and the earth to shake. The mountains and the cities of the world will fall!

`I will gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat,......The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter His voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake;....` (Joel 3: 1 & 16)

`And there were voices, and thunders and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake , such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake and so great, and the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell....and every island fled away and the mountains were not found,` (Rev. 16: 18 - 20)

Yes I agree wretched that when the Lord comes in power and great glory His word of authority in judgment, against the armies of the world, is very powerful.

`And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem. Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.` (Zech. 14: 12)

I also agree that the Lord is in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. However one day when I have my new body, immortal and incorruptible, then I shall see the Lord, and just not through a glass darkly. I will have become fully mature and then have the ability, (by the Holy Spirit) to comprehend the Lord more in all His glory.

regards, Marilyn.

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On 3/14/2018 at 6:11 PM, Marilyn C said:

I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are the ones mentioned in 1 Cor. 12: 8 - 10. It is the Holy Spirit that draws us to Christ and it is He that indwells the believer. There are many `signs` of the Holy Spirit`s presence,-  fruits of the Spirit, wisdom & knowledge of His word, healing and prophecy, etc.

Marilyn,

You mentioned that these gifts are still in effect today. Please expound.

1. Do you have the gift of prophecy?

2. Have you ever prophesied of the future?

3. Have you ever given, spoken, or written, of any future dates concerning any prophecy of the scriptures?

4. Can you tell us of a individual that has the gift of prophecy?

If you have written any specific dates, concerning any specific prophecy written in the scriptures, please tell us.

Alan

 

 

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17 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi NN,

Yes the Word of God stands forever, but not the paper and ink of our Bibles.

The true word is the very mind and thoughts of God. And how precious they are towards us.

regards, Marilyn.

Indeed...all temporal things shall be burnt; however, God's word isn't temporal and is settled forever in heaven. If this is just a case of word-play, then I will bow out. I have no desire to debate such things such as this.

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If God's word is magnified to him (TO HIM) more so than his name...and it is (Psalm 138:2)...

...and if taking God's name in vain is included as one of the 10 commandments...and it is (Exodus 20:7 and Deuteronomy 5:11)

...then I would assume that God's word is of some importance and wouldn't be willing to discount its importance in the future...

...but that's me.

Edited by No Nicolaitans
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14 hours ago, Alan said:

Marilyn,

You mentioned that these gifts are still in effect today. Please expound.

1. Do you have the gift of prophecy?

2. Have you ever prophesied of the future?

3. Have you ever given, spoken, or written, of any future dates concerning any prophecy of the scriptures?

4. Can you tell us of a individual that has the gift of prophecy?

If you have written any specific dates, concerning any specific prophecy written in the scriptures, please tell us.

Alan

 

 

Hi Alan,

Wow, you do have some questions for me.....I`d probably have no for most of those.

As to prophecy for future events, dates etc. Well, I tend to see Prophecy more in the light of -

`The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.` (Rev. 19: 10)

and -

`...he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.` (1 Cor. 14: 3)

When a teacher of the word brings forth what he believes the Holy Spirit would have him speak to the congregation, then to me he is speaking the now word of the Lord. Perhaps highlighting some portion of scripture that the Holy Spirit is focussing on at that time. Prophecy is God speaking, I believe. It is not always about the future - forth telling not always foretelling.

Hope that is clearer as to what I believe..

regards, Marilyn.

 

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6 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Indeed...all temporal things shall be burnt; however, God's word isn't temporal and is settled forever in heaven. If this is just a case of word-play, then I will bow out. I have no desire to debate such things such as this.

Hi NN,

No, I`m not into word-play. Now we know that God spoke through men in the past and inspired them to write the books of the Bible.  Some words are about history, some of prophecy etc. All are an unfolding of Christ, as He is the centre of the Bible. Some prophecies concerning Christ have been fulfilled and some are yet to come. I believe, and think you would too, that what ever God says, then it will come to pass, It is settled.

regards, Marilyn.

Edited by Marilyn C

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Marilyn, I believe that I have kept up with all of your posts so far, but have yet to see you indicate what kind of church you attend. You did not check the "Independent Baptist" box in your profile, so I just have to assume that you are not an IFB.

Would you mind telling us what kind of church you attend, or what denomination you align with? Thank you for considering this.

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27 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Alan,

Wow, you do have some questions for me.....I`d probably have no for most of those.

As to prophecy for future events, dates etc. Well, I tend to see Prophecy more in the light of -

`The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.` (Rev. 19: 10)

and -

`...he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.` (1 Cor. 14: 3)

When a teacher of the word brings forth what he believes the Holy Spirit would have him speak to the congregation, then to me he is speaking the now word of the Lord. Perhaps highlighting some portion of scripture that the Holy Spirit is focussing on at that time. Prophecy is God speaking, I believe. It is not always about the future - forth telling not always foretelling.

Hope that is clearer as to what I believe..

regards, Marilyn.

 

Marilyn,

No, you are not clear in your answer. In fact you are ambiguous and playing with words in your answer. I feel that you are avoiding a clear cut answer to my questions. My questions are very clear and can be answered in a straightforward manner.

Alan

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Just now, Jim_Alaska said:

Marilyn, I believe that I have kept up with all of your posts so far, but have yet to see you indicate what kind of church you attend. You did not check the "Independent Baptist" box, so I just have to assume that you are not an IFB.

Would you mind telling us what kind of church you attend, or what denomination you align with? Thank you for considering this.

Hi Jim,

Thank you for being interested. As I said previously we attended an Anglican church, where my husband was brought up in. Nowadays we meet in a house type church of believers, but not specifically of a denomination. Remembering that all denominations have been started at some point in history. We do relate to other believers in different denominations in our area.

And as to my beliefs you can read them and discuss with me concerning those. I think it is great to share and learn from each other. We all have some area we have done more study in and I appreciate those who have looked more deeply into areas that I have not. My emphasis, or study has mainly been in the area of eschatology, though my great passion is mentoring which I have done over the years.

regards, Marilyn.   

15 hours ago, Alan said:

Marilyn,

You mentioned that these gifts are still in effect today. Please expound.

1. Do you have the gift of prophecy?

2. Have you ever prophesied of the future?

3. Have you ever given, spoken, or written, of any future dates concerning any prophecy of the scriptures?

4. Can you tell us of a individual that has the gift of prophecy?

If you have written any specific dates, concerning any specific prophecy written in the scriptures, please tell us.

Alan

 

 

Hi Alan,

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

4. No.

Marilyn.

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Marilyn,

Since you answered "No" to the four questions, can you please explain the following dates in the following "Worthy Christian Forum,"The Tribulation Calendar - The Date for the Peace Treaty. - Marilyn's Messages - Worthy Christian Forums.html posting.

In that posting you clearly state that the date for the signing of the peace treaty by the Jews with the anti-Christ is on March 16, 2010.

Marilyn's Messages

A blog by Marilyn C

The Tribulation Calendar - The Date for the Peace Treaty.

image.png.304acd332bf4d5210364b3099d0e22ea.png

Entry posted by Marilyn C · December 6, 2017

The Peace Treaty - Adar 20th (March 16th 2020)

The month of Adar is the time of rejoicing of deliverance from enemies. It is the last month of the Jewish year and the happiest in the calendar. This rejoicing will be after God deals with the Russian Federation of Israel`s mountains.                  

  image.png.8eaf83df2a9ca5a5f702045f8927c04f.png

 

The Peace Treaty, I believe, will be signed and come into effect on Monday March the 16th 2020. (Adar 20)

This is the beginning of the working week and will usher in the `7 year` Tribulation.


Regards,

Alan

 

 

Edited by Alan

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12 minutes ago, Alan said:

Marilyn,

Since you answered "No" to the four questions, can you please explain the following dates in the following "Worthy Christian Forum,"The Tribulation Calendar - The Date for the Peace Treaty. - Marilyn's Messages - Worthy Christian Forums.html posting.

In that posting you clearly state that the date for the signing of the peace treaty by the Jews with the anti-Christ is on March 16, 2010.

Marilyn's Messages

A blog by Marilyn C

The Tribulation Calendar - The Date for the Peace Treaty.

image.png.304acd332bf4d5210364b3099d0e22ea.png

Entry posted by Marilyn C · December 6, 2017

The Peace Treaty - Adar 20th (March 16th 2020)

The month of Adar is the time of rejoicing of deliverance from enemies. It is the last month of the Jewish year and the happiest in the calendar. This rejoicing will be after God deals with the Russian Federation of Israel`s mountains.                  

  image.png.8eaf83df2a9ca5a5f702045f8927c04f.png

 

The Peace Treaty, I believe, will be signed and come into effect on Monday March the 16th 2020. (Adar 20)

This is the beginning of the working week and will usher in the `7 year` Tribulation.


Regards,

Alan

 

 

Hi Alan,

Wow, I didn`t know I was so .....well...known. Glad you brought that up. Yes I have done some calculations according to God`s numbers in His word. That is my `opinion` for the time of the Peace treaty etc. The date of the rapture is not known or given in God`s word. However God does clearly say, referring to the day of the Lord, (tribulation) and thus rapture before that -

`But ye brethren are not in darkness that this day, (day of the Lord) should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

`...exhorting one another; and so much the more as you see the day (of the Lord) approaching.` (Heb. 10: 25)

As we will see the day of the Lord, the tribulation approaching then the rapture would be before that. And I believe that the Holy Spirit will quicken believer`s hearts right across the Body as the time draws very near.

regards, Marilyn.

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So, you are a prophetess. So, no wonder you stated that the signs of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 have not ceased and are with us today.

The dates that you giving, in my eyes, are prophecies, and not a "forth-telling" in my understanding of the word.

Alan

 

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Hi Alan,

BTW have you read the whole blog on that topic?  Be interested to hear what you think of how I see God`s numbers in His word.

And also blogs are people`s opinions.

Marilyn.

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Just now, Alan said:

So, you are a prophetess. So, no wonder you stated that the signs of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 have not ceased and are with us today.

The dates that you giving, in my eyes, are prophecies, and not a "forth-telling" in my understanding of the word.

Alan

 

Hi Alan,

No, just some one who studies eschatology. The numbers are there along with God`s festivals for Israel.

Marilyn.

Just now, Alan said:

If anybody would like to know the date of the Lord Jesus according to Marilyn's calculations, please read the following.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1008-the-tribulation-calendar-the-date-for-jesus-return/

Alan

Thank you Alan, very kind of you. And I would be interested to hear people`s thoughts on that series or any other of my blogs, my personal thoughts.

regards, Marilyn.

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Just now, Marilyn C said:

Hi Alan,

No, just some one who studies eschatology. The numbers are there along with God`s festivals for Israel.

Marilyn.

I do not believe that for a moment. In my eyes you have been playing word games, dancing around our questions, giving us ambiguous answers, and so forth.

Jordan,

The sign gifts of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 have ceased.

Alan

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10 minutes ago, Alan said:

I do not believe that for a moment. In my eyes you have been playing word games, dancing around our questions, giving us ambiguous answers, and so forth.

Jordan,

The sign gifts of 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 have ceased.

Alan

Hi Alan,

I can understand that we are seeing things differently, and sorry that you think I have been playing games. That would be quite disrespectful not only to you but to God`s word and the listeners. Hope we can discuss perhaps on other topics,

regards, Marilyn.

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Well that certainly explains why she is so vehemently opposed to what the Bible actually says in Jordan's originally questioned passage.

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58 minutes ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Hi Alan,

1. No.

2. No.

3. No.

4. No.

Marilyn.

Interesting set of answers considering number 3 in light of Alan's post.

I wonder which of the other answers are "reinterpreted" from fact?

I wonder which of her other statements are stated in terms as "correct" as her answer in number 3?

And that answer is a pretty strange "mistake" to make, considering the precise nature of question 3.

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1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Alan,

I can understand that we are seeing things differently, and sorry that you think I have been playing games.

Seeing things differently is answering "No" to a question to which the answer is clearly "Yes"?

Is it any wonder that he thinks you are playing games?

There is "seeing things differently" and there is this......

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