Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

Does 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 teach the sign gifts have ceased?


Recommended Posts

  • Members
1 hour ago, DaveW said:

Ah bur chapter 11 is talking about prayer, and even mentions prophesying, so that which is perfect must be prayer........

Really ???

Subjects move and change through the letters, and the subject is clearly not the body in the verses in question.

 

Hi Dave,

The focus of Paul`s letter to the Corinthians is that Christ is our sanctification.

`But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption. `(1 Cor. 1: 30)

Paul addresses each matter that the Corinthians requested, and goes on to explain how believers should act. He spoke of living a life pleasing to the Lord, and being members of one body, caring for each other and using spiritual gifts for building up the body. Sanctification is the work of the Holy Spirit whereby the mind and affections of the believer are purified from all control of sin. It is a process that the believer is active in.

regards, Marilyn.

Edited by Marilyn C
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

You forcing of the context of the body into the passage which is the subject of this thread in particular has no justification.

That which is perfect is not, and cannot be, the body. 

The passage itself contrasts that which is perfect with that which is in part - that which is in part is knowledge and prophecy as designated directly in the passage.

The perfecting of that knowledge and prophecy can only be the Word of God, the perfect record of all spiritual knowledge that we need.

The illustrations are all relating to clarity of understanding and growth of knowledge.

That which is perfect is not and cannot be the body.

The direct passage precludes it, the context of the passage precludes it, the illustrations do not match it, and thr meaning of the words used does not support it.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Hi Dave,

So does your explanation fit in with the meaning of perfect?

perfect - Gk. word `teleios` meaning complete (in various applications of labour, growth, mental and moral character etc) completeness of full age, man, perfect.

regards, Marilyn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

1Co 13:9-10
(9)  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10)  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

 

Knowledge - in part.

Prophecy - in part.

Complete that which is in part? Perfect that which is in part?

Your bolded words are only possible meanings of the word, not the absolute definition of the word. The PRIMARY meaning of the word is to COMPLETE (which is why it is the first meaning listed). Which meaning should be referred to is defined by the surrounding words and context.

The PASSAGE ITSELF uses the terms "in Part" in contrast to "perfect", thereby setting the meaning of the word "perfect" as relating to "in Part" - in other words, to complete, to perfect, that which is currently in part.

The things which are "in part" are ABSOLUTELY DEFINED IN THE PASSAGE as knowledge (Spiritual knowledge is implied, not general knowledge), and prophecy. These are both to do with spiritual knowledge from God, or "Special revelation".

This then defines the meaning of "that which is perfect" as also relating to knowledge and prophecy. 

The Passage itself sets this as the subject under discussion.

To force the secondary meaning of "Mental or moral character" into this usage of the word has no justification. Where do we see any discussion in this passage about "mental or moral character" in relation to either that which is in part or that which is perfect?

And don't refer back to the discussion on the definition of charity earlier in the chapter for vs 8 begins by pointing out that charity NEVER FAILETH BUT THE PROPHECIES AND KNOWELDGE DO FAIL AND VANISH AWAY.

(1Co 13:8)  Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

This fact alone removes the likelihood of "Mental or moral character" because the new subject is CONTRASTED against the discussion of charity. Charity has all these factors that could be considered to do with character, but it never fails, and these other things absolutely will fail.
 

 

The illustrations used are consistent with and supportive of the subject being knowledge and prophecy:

(1Co 13:11)  When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

Children have a limited understanding, just like the people of Paul's time had a limited revelation from God. You yourself have pointed that out in discussions with Eric.


(1Co 13:12)  For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Looking into a mirror in those days - or even through an old piece of glass - gave a reflection (or image through the glass) that was lacking in detail, or a not a clear representation of the truth. However, looking face to face you can see clearly all the details.

Paul finishes this section by saying that now his knowledge was in part, but then (when that which is perfect is come) he shall have full knowledge.

All of this points to the FACT that prior to the completion of the Bible there have been various stages of understanding of spiritual matters, with some things deliberately left a mystery, and some portions of Scripture deliberately sealed by God for a time period.  Knowledge and Prophecy IN PART.

Now however, we have the completed revelation from God. Complete, or "that which is perfect".

 

The ENTIRE CONTEXT, the terms used, the illustrations used, the obvious subject, the STATED items that are in part as distinct from perfect, ALL Direct us to the understanding that special revelation is the theme of this section of the letter, and when we have the perfect or complete revelation from God, then the items in part - special revelation actively from God at that time - would be done away.

Because we have a more sure Word of prophecy.

Now that we have the complete, perfect, Word of God without error and without mistake, as closed by John the Apostle under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, we have no further need of special revelation as an ongoing thing.

That which was in part - partial knowledge being given actively at that time - has been done away with by the perfect written Word of God. There is NO NEED for active special revelation now, and therefore no need for those signs which confirm it was from God.

 


 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Hi Dave,

That is quite a good presentation there bro. And I would agree with you that no more `special` revelation is needed as God`s word is complete. The Bible is God`s full unfolding revelation of Christ, His character and His purposes.

Now, when your minister gets up to preach does he just read God`s word? Or does he give his opinions on God`s word? Or, hopefully he will exhort, encourage and edify the believers by expounding on God`s word. What say you?

regards, Marilyn. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
19 hours ago, DaveW said:

1Co 13:9-10
(9)  For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
(10)  But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

The ENTIRE CONTEXT, the terms used, the illustrations used, the obvious subject, the STATED items that are in part as distinct from perfect, ALL Direct us to the understanding that special revelation is the theme of this section of the letter, and when we have the perfect or complete revelation from God, then the items in part - special revelation actively from God at that time - would be done away.

 

Hi Dave,

Another question, (besides the ones previous) it seems to me you are saying that what Paul knew earlier was the part and when the whole Bible came together then that is the perfect. (Is that how you see it?) If so then God`s word says the `part` is done away with!!!! So that would mean certain parts of the Bible done away with!!!! Not quite making sense to me there bro.

regards, Marilyn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Hi Dave,

You have explained what you think, but what you said is NOT clear as per scripture.

Does your minister just read the Bible, OR does he also exhort, edify and encourage by the Holy Spirit, what the Spirit would say to the believers. Of course he does. God still speaks through his ministers today, expounding His word and clarifying His word to people. Of course it is NOT extra revelation, but still God speaking, (prophecy) as per 1 Cor. 14.

Eventually the Bible will be done away with as we shall see the Lord and not just read about Him.

regards, Marilyn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
7 hours ago, DaveW said:

I have VERY CLEARLY explained what I mean.

If you are so determined to misunderstand/misrepresent my words, then there is simply no point in me continuing with this thread.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
On ‎12‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 3:25 AM, Jordan Kurecki said:

1. Does the cessation of spiritual gifts hinge on 1 Corinthians 13:8-12? What other passages of the bible teach cessationism of the sign gifts?

2. Can we know with certainty based on Biblical exegesis that the "perfect" of vs 10 is the completed canon of scripture? or do we just say that because we have heard preachers teach that?

Hey Jordan, I hope you are satisfied with the answers to part 2 of this question?

As far as Part 1 is concerned:

Mar 16:15-20
(15)  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
(16)  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
(17)  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
(18)  They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(19)  So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
(20)  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
 

This passage gives the purpose for the gifts:

(20)  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

The purpose of the signs was to "confirm the Word with signs". Since the Word is the completion of that which is "in part", and no longer needs such confirmation - because we KNOW it is the Word of God, the signs are no longer needed.

This is hardly watertight Jordan, but it is another indicator, and maybe a passage that you can investigate further in regard to this matter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
9 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

 

Eventually the Bible will be done away with as we shall see the Lord and not just read about Him.

 

Matthew 24:35 and several other similar: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Christ is the Word and the Word is Christ. If you know His Word, you know Him as you know yourself. This cannot be achieved by men's published books, it can only be achieved by saturation in God's Word. You must consume yourself with listening to Him just like most the professing consume themselves in temporal, self-interests.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
7 hours ago, wretched said:

Matthew 24:35 and several other similar: Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Christ is the Word and the Word is Christ. If you know His Word, you know Him as you know yourself. This cannot be achieved by men's published books, it can only be achieved by saturation in God's Word. You must consume yourself with listening to Him just like most the professing consume themselves in temporal, self-interests.

 

Hi wretched,

Good thoughts there bro.

Now I am talking about the paper and ink, the bible as we have it. Of course the Lord is the Word, the very mind of God. Now as you said, we are told that the earth and the heavens will be burnt up, so that includes all the Bibles that are on earth. When we appear with the Lord in glory then we will not need to read about Him for we shall see Him face to face. All the historic, wisdom and knowledge and prophecies of God`s word will all have been fulfilled. The perfect will have come. Perfect relationship with Christ the Head of the Body.

regards, Marilyn.

 

5 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

(Isaiah 40:8) The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

(1 Peter 1:25) But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Hi NN,

Yes the Word of God stands forever, but not the paper and ink of our Bibles.

The true word is the very mind and thoughts of God. And how precious they are towards us.

regards, Marilyn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
3 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi wretched,

Good thoughts there bro.

Now I am talking about the paper and ink, the bible as we have it. Of course the Lord is the Word, the very mind of God. Now as you said, we are told that the earth and the heavens will be burnt up, so that includes all the Bibles that are on earth. When we appear with the Lord in glory then we will not need to read about Him for we shall see Him face to face. All the historic, wisdom and knowledge and prophecies of God`s word will all have been fulfilled. The perfect will have come. Perfect relationship with Christ the Head of the Body.

regards, Marilyn.

 

I understand you sister,

Would you agree that the Word could be in our hearts now if we wanted it to? We could know God now as well as we know ourselves if we would only saturate ourselves in His Word now.

I have to disagree on the Written Word's absence in Heaven however. His Written Word is definitely in Heaven and will remain into eternity with Him.  

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Of course the Word of God will be their Judge (all 66 Books)), God the Father has left all Judgment to the Son and who is the Son again? The Word.)

But before that He will also use the Word of God out His mouth. He will speak it and His Words will smite the nations.

Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 
The Word is far more powerful than most believers realize and no Ma'am, not the paper and ink...the Words (every one of them). Can you agree with this?
 
 

 

 

Edited by wretched
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...