Calvinism or Arminianism? How do you answer?

[PastorMatt 1,094]

On 5/23/2020 at 4:52 AM, LYDIA WESTERN said:

That would be lovely, I have to admit.

@LYDIA WESTERN The edit option should now be there for you.

[LYDIA WESTERN 10]

14 minutes ago, PastorMatt said:

@LYDIA WESTERN The edit option should now be there for you.

Thankyou lol. Yes it's there now.

[Bouncing Bill 53]

I was predestined to believe in free will. 

[SureWord 155]

Arminian before the Cross, Calvinist after the Cross. 

i.e. freewill to accept or reject salvation before conversion but not afterwards

[heartstrings 2,368]

On 6/13/2020 at 1:59 PM, Bouncing Bill said:

I was predestined to believe in free will. 

If a person gets saved, he then becomes one of those predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. But before that same man believes on Jesus and gets saved, he's not predestined to anything: He's on his way to Hell.

[Bouncing Bill 53]

24 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

If a person gets saved, he then becomes one of those predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ. But before that same man believes on Jesus and gets saved, he's not predestined to anything: He's on his way to Hell.

I know Calvinist's who would argue that the unsaved were predestined for hell from before the world was formed. 

[Scott Lyons 29]

Predestination has nothing to do with God predetermining who goes to heaven or who goes to hell! It has nothing to do with salvation at all! It is about believers being predestined for adoption, for an inheritance, and to be conformed into the image of Christ. All future events. Calvinism is heresy and must be rejected!!!

[heartstrings 2,368]

1 hour ago, Bouncing Bill said:

I know Calvinist's who would argue that the unsaved were predestined for hell from before the world was formed. 

......for the "glory" of God.

[SureWord 155]

A question I always had about Calvinism is what about babies who die? If we are predestined does that mean there are babies in hell? Or do only predestined babies die as I had one Calivinist suggest?

[Scott Lyons 29]

17 hours ago, SureWord said:

A question I always had about Calvinism is what about babies who die? If we are predestined does that mean there are babies in hell? Or do only predestined babies die as I had one Calivinist suggest?

My wife and I had two still-born daughters and I know they are in heaven! Calvinism is pure evil!!! It is from the pit of hell!!!

[SureWord 155]

29 minutes ago, Scott Lyons said:

My wife and I had two still-born daughters and I know they are in heaven! Calvinism is pure evil!!! It is from the pit of hell!!!

Hear, Hear!

[heartstrings 2,368]

God created some to go to Hell for His "glory" and we can't accept that because "God's ways are higher than our ways". (even though Genesis chapter 3 says we have "knowledge of good and evil"). Hey, even LOST people know that's evil.

[Ukulelemike 3,780]

20 hours ago, SureWord said:

A question I always had about Calvinism is what about babies who die? If we are predestined does that mean there are babies in hell? Or do only predestined babies die as I had one Calivinist suggest?

Paul covers this issue quite competently and clearly, in Romans 7:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."

The highlighted area seems quite clear to me: The only was someone, particularly a Jew, could be alive without the law, was if, for some reason, the law didn't apply to them. We know Paul grew up a Jew, so the law was his rule of life-how could he have once been alive without it? Only is, as a small child, he had no understanding of it, of right and wrong and sin and punishment. BUT, when the commandment came, when he reached an understanding of it, sin, which had always been [resent in him, but sleeping, of no effect without understanding, revived, gained power over him, and he spiritually died. See, he didn't know lust until he understood that the Law taught Thou shalt not covet.  Sin applies only when we understand right and wrong. 

[DaChaser 17]

18 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Paul covers this issue quite competently and clearly, in Romans 7:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."

The highlighted area seems quite clear to me: The only was someone, particularly a Jew, could be alive without the law, was if, for some reason, the law didn't apply to them. We know Paul grew up a Jew, so the law was his rule of life-how could he have once been alive without it? Only is, as a small child, he had no understanding of it, of right and wrong and sin and punishment. BUT, when the commandment came, when he reached an understanding of it, sin, which had always been [resent in him, but sleeping, of no effect without understanding, revived, gained power over him, and he spiritually died. See, he didn't know lust until he understood that the Law taught Thou shalt not covet.  Sin applies only when we understand right and wrong. 

The answer varies depending upon the Calvinist, as some would say only infants of saved parents, others would say only those who are the elect, I would say that God has chosen to elect in Chruist those who cannot do anything, such as babies and mentally handicapped persons!

[SureWord 155]

2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

The answer varies depending upon the Calvinist, as some would say only infants of saved parents, others would say only those who are the elect, I would say that God has chosen to elect in Chruist those who cannot do anything, such as babies and mentally handicapped persons!

No doubt babies go to heaven. Whether they are part of the church I am not sure. They may be part of some other redeemed body in heaven. Maybe part of the "general assembly" (Hebrews 12:23)

[DaChaser 17]

1 minute ago, SureWord said:

No doubt babies go to heaven. Whether they are part of the church I am not sure. They may be part of some other redeemed body in heaven. Maybe part of the "general assembly" (Hebrews 12:23)

I think that we all will be adults in heaven, especially once received glorified bodies!

[SureWord 155]

1 minute ago, DaChaser said:

I think that we all will be adults in heaven, especially once received glorified bodies!

Yes, I agree with that for sure.

[DaChaser 17]

1 minute ago, SureWord said:

Yes, I agree with that for sure.

As I do not agree with Catholics that there are babies in heaven and also in Limbo!

[Ukulelemike 3,780]

On 6/19/2020 at 6:00 AM, DaChaser said:

The answer varies depending upon the Calvinist, as some would say only infants of saved parents, others would say only those who are the elect, I would say that God has chosen to elect in Chruist those who cannot do anything, such as babies and mentally handicapped persons!

You can say that as you like, but that is certainly adding to what scripture says. It says just what it says, we need not add man made philosophy to it. They are not elect in Christ, they are in innocence, where there is no law, and sin is not accounted.

[DaChaser 17]

On 6/21/2020 at 8:25 PM, Ukulelemike said:

You can say that as you like, but that is certainly adding to what scripture says. It says just what it says, we need not add man made philosophy to it. They are not elect in Christ, they are in innocence, where there is no law, and sin is not accounted.

All have fallen in Adam, as even babies are sinners by nature!

[Pastor Scott Markle 2,779]

Romans 5:18 -- "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."

Indeed, I must agree that "ALL men" are under judgment to condemnation (yea, condemned already), not due to their own sin, but due to Adam's sin.  However, the very same statement of God's Holy Word ALSO declares that "the free gift" of salvation has come upon (is available to) "ALL men" as well.  Now, if contextually the "all men" phrase in the first half of the verse refers to every single human individual who enters the world, then contextually the "all men" phrase in the second half of the verse would refer to the same - to EVERY SINGLE human individual who enters the world.

[Ukulelemike 3,780]

2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

All have fallen in Adam, as even babies are sinners by nature!

But where there is no law, or understanding of sin and punishment, there is no imputing of sin. All are fallen, but until sin is willingly committed, it is not imputed. That is exactly what Paul was saying in Rom 7.

 

[Scott Lyons 29]

2 hours ago, DaChaser said:

All have fallen in Adam, as even babies are sinners by nature!

@DaChaser take your heresy of Calvinism elsewhere!

[DaChaser 17]

5 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

But where there is no law, or understanding of sin and punishment, there is no imputing of sin. All are fallen, but until sin is willingly committed, it is not imputed. That is exactly what Paul was saying in Rom 7.

 

All have died in Adam, as all born save Jesus tatsed sin nature and the effects of the fall!

4 hours ago, Scott Lyons said:

@DaChaser take your heresy of Calvinism elsewhere!

Original Sin is a biblical doctrine!

[heartstrings 2,368]

21 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

 

Original Sin is a biblical doctrine!

Sure is. But Calvinism sure isn't.

[DaChaser 17]

5 hours ago, heartstrings said:

Sure is. But Calvinism sure isn't.

In your opinion! There were many so called particular Baptists who held and still hold to Calvinism.

Edited June 23, 2020 by DaChaser

[Scott Lyons 29]

4 hours ago, DaChaser said:

In your opinion! There were many so called particular Baptists who held and still hold to Calvinism.

Doesn't make it right! The Calvinist's authority is NOT Scripture but IS Calvinism! Calvinists have outsourced their sense-making to "giants of the faith" like Luther, Edwards, Knox, Gill, and even Calvin himself instead of Scripture! Calvinists don't think for themselves and say "well John Knox says, or Calvin Says, or Jonathan Edwards says" instead of saying exactly what Scripture says! I don't care about what those men said. They were all heretics!

[DaChaser 17]

15 hours ago, Scott Lyons said:

Doesn't make it right! The Calvinist's authority is NOT Scripture but IS Calvinism! Calvinists have outsourced their sense-making to "giants of the faith" like Luther, Edwards, Knox, Gill, and even Calvin himself instead of Scripture! Calvinists don't think for themselves and say "well John Knox says, or Calvin Says, or Jonathan Edwards says" instead of saying exactly what Scripture says! I don't care about what those men said. They were all heretics!

I think that you have a right to feel that way, but very much doubt that men such as a Bunyan, Calvin, Spurgeon, Packer, Stott et all were all heretics!

[Scott Lyons 29]

1 hour ago, DaChaser said:

I think that you have a right to feel that way, but very much doubt that men such as a Bunyan, Calvin, Spurgeon, Packer, Stott et all were all heretics!

Again outsourcing your sense-making to men instead of Scripture! I don't care what those men said. What does the plain reading of Scripture say? And yes those men were heretics! If they preached and taught Calvinism, which they did, they are heretics because Calvinism is a false gospel of works. None of the five points of the TULIP are supported by Scripture!

[heartstrings 2,368]

Neither Calvin, Spurgeon, nor any of those other dudes were around when I got saved on May 11, 1986; just the Word of God and the Holy Ghost.

[DaChaser 17]

1 hour ago, Scott Lyons said:

Again outsourcing your sense-making to men instead of Scripture! I don't care what those men said. What does the plain reading of Scripture say? And yes those men were heretics! If they preached and taught Calvinism, which they did, they are heretics because Calvinism is a false gospel of works. None of the five points of the TULIP are supported by Scripture!

Calvinists like myself are NOT holding to a salvation by works, as its Grace alone thru faith alone!

[Scott Lyons 29]

47 minutes ago, DaChaser said:

Calvinists like myself are NOT holding to a salvation by works, as its Grace alone thru faith alone!

Oh yeah you are! Do you understand what the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is? They will tell you it is eternal security but it is not. One must persevere in GOOD WORKS to prove that they are one of the elect. If a person backslides or falls away it proves they were never saved to begin with according to Calvinism. So you my friend if you do believe you are one of the "elect", you cannot know if you are saved until after you die! How many good works must a person do to prove they are one of the elect? This is where Calvinists become fruit inspectors and judge other people on whether they are truly saved and one of the elect or not. By the way, election and being elect has nothing to do with salvation. Election is to service! I suggest you study your theology a bit more.

[DaChaser 17]

1 hour ago, Scott Lyons said:

Oh yeah you are! Do you understand what the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints is? They will tell you it is eternal security but it is not. One must persevere in GOOD WORKS to prove that they are one of the elect. If a person backslides or falls away it proves they were never saved to begin with according to Calvinism. So you my friend if you do believe you are one of the "elect", you cannot know if you are saved until after you die! How many good works must a person do to prove they are one of the elect? This is where Calvinists become fruit inspectors and judge other people on whether they are truly saved and one of the elect or not. By the way, election and being elect has nothing to do with salvation. Election is to service! I suggest you study your theology a bit more.

I am a Calvinist Baptist, so tend to see this more as Eternal security of the saved, and that those who are really saved by grace will evidence to some degree fruit to reflect that, and when sinning, will in some fashion repent and return to the lord. Do agree with you that at times we seem to want to be fruit inspectors, and everyone grows at different rates, not one salvation mold fits all!

Er just do not wish people to be trusting a one time alter call as proof right with God!

[Gismys 13]

God Would Have ALL Men to be Saved!!

 

2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

 

1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. == A stake in the false teaching Calvinism's heart!

 

[Ukulelemike 3,780]

19 hours ago, Gismys said:

God Would Have ALL Men to be Saved!!

 

2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

 

1Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. == A stake in the false teaching Calvinism's heart!

 

Here is some more:

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. " (Matt 23:37)
Here we see God's will, that He could gather Jerusalem together to Himself, yet their will, to reject Him, prevailed, and therefore, their house was left to them desolate. Man's will prevailed over God's will.

 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2Pet 3:9)