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How would you reconcile this?


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How would you reconcile these verses in a teaching situation?

I do know and understand that Scripture does not contradict itself. But how would you reconcile the seeming contradictions we find in the verses I list below?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Isa 24:1
  Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Isa 65:17
  For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Ps 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
 Ec 1:4  One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

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6 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

How would you reconcile these verses in a teaching situation?

I do know and understand that Scripture does not contradict itself. But how would you reconcile the seeming contradictions we find in the verses I list below?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Isa 24:1
  Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Isa 65:17
  For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Ps 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
 Ec 1:4  One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Hi Bro Jim,

There a two issues here:       

1) Old Testament prophetic expression and the phrases translated "forever" in many translations of the Bible does not necessarily mean by that word in the actual Bible what we mean by it in English word "forever" depending on its context  One biblical phrase which makes clear what the Bible really means is "from the ages to the ages" -- which is often rendered "forever" -- but it can also mean, in biblical terms, "kingdom come".  Although there are several passages that also interpret the Hebrew word ("olam") to literally mean "forever" or "everlasting" (Dan. 12:2.) So there really is no contradiction seen from the biblical point of view that everything will remain as it is until "the end", and there is an "end", which is also a new beginning. So the correct context would determine how to reconcile those passages. The common theme in the book of Ecclesiastes is vanity, nothingness, or futility. Vanity is never based on or predicated on God's Work or work done through the power of the Holy Spirit. All our works outside of God's Will is futility, and will not have everlasting value, for it will perish ultimately, while the Earth and its cycles will continue long after we're physically dead. One of the reason as to why Jesus said, "Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life..." (Jn. 6:27). Our works done by the Holy Spirit will abide forever, while our others are burnt up.

2) The universe will be completely destroyed as some of the passages you quote make clear; but it will be replaced by "new heavens" and a "new earth", a cosmos in which only "righteousness dwelleth".  But even the the earth will be destroyed completely, what replaces it will be "earth", the "new earth", but still "the earth".  Think of it this way:  our present body may be turned completely to dust and/or completely destroyed (as surely has been the case for Adam and Eve etc.), but in the bodies of Adam and Eve will still be Adam and Eve in their resurrection in their new bodies. This is analogous to what happens to the earth; it is still the earth; but it completely transformed into something much better, just as in the case of our resurrection bodies.  The Greek word for "new" (kainos) literally means NEW in the most possible sense, The Jehovah's Witnesses argue that the word "new" refers to a "remodeled" or "renovated" Earth, when most of the times it refers to something literally new (Matt. 9:17; 27:60; Lk. 5:36; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 2:17; 14:3; 21:1). So in this case too focusing too much on "new" and not enough on "earth" can be misleading. Much of this has to do with the way we think in English and what we imagine is possible and not possible from English. This age comes to an end; this earth comes to an end; this body comes to an end.  But the age to come, the earth to come, and the resurrected body to come truly are "forever" in every conceivable way, regardless of issues of language and interpretation.

God Bless,

Daniel

Edited by (Omega)
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24 minutes ago, (Omega) said:

Hi Bro Jim,

There a two issues here:       

1) Old Testament prophetic expression and the phrases translated "forever" in many translations of the Bible does not necessarily mean by that word in the actual Bible what we mean by it in English word "forever" depending on its context  One biblical phrase which makes clear what the Bible really means is "from the ages to the ages" -- which is often rendered "forever" -- but it can also mean, in biblical terms, "kingdom come".  Although there are several passages that also interpret the Hebrew word ("olam") to literally mean "forever" or "everlasting" (Dan. 12:2.) So there really is no contradiction seen from the biblical point of view that everything will remain as it is until "the end", and there is an "end", which is also a new beginning. So the correct context would determine how to reconcile those passages. The common theme in the book of Ecclesiastes is vanity, nothingness, or futility. Vanity is never based on or predicated on God's Work or work done through the power of the Holy Spirit. All our works outside of God's Will is futility, and will not have everlasting value, for it will perish ultimately, while the Earth and its cycles will continue long after we're physically dead. One of the reason as to why Jesus said, "Labor not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life..." (Jn. 6:27). Our works done by the Holy Spirit will abide forever, while our others are burnt up.

2) The universe will be completely destroyed as some of the passages you quote make clear; but it will be replaced by "new heavens" and a "new earth", a cosmos in which only "righteousness dwelleth".  But even the the earth will be destroyed completely, what replaces it will be "earth", the "new earth", but still "the earth".  Think of it this way:  our present body may be turned completely to dust and/or completely destroyed (as surely has been the case for Adam and Eve etc.), but in the bodies of Adam and Eve will still be Adam and Eve in their resurrection in their new bodies. This is analogous to what happens to the earth; it is still the earth; but it completely transformed into something much better, just as in the case of our resurrection bodies.  The Greek word for "new" (kainos) literally means NEW in the most possible sense, The Jehovah's Witnesses argue that the word "new" refers to a "remodeled" or "renovated" Earth, when most of the times it refers to something literally new (Matt. 9:17; 27:60; Lk. 5:36; 2 Pet. 3:13; Rev. 2:17; 14:3; 21:1). So in this case too focusing too much on "new" and not enough on "earth" can be misleading. Much of this has to do with the way we think in English and what we imagine is possible and not possible from English. This age comes to an end; this earth comes to an end; this body comes to an end.  But the age to come, the earth to come, and the resurrected body to come truly are "forever" in every conceivable way, regardless of issues of language and interpretation.

God Bless,

Daniel

Omega, I'm not going to lie and say that I understood perfectly everything you just said. But I will say that I appreciate the respectful, courteous way you said it, and that you were clearly not correcting the English with the Greek. We don't get enough of that these days with doctrinal discussions, and it's refreshing. Thank you.

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Thank you for your kind words, Weary Warrior. Sometimes I don't understand what I'm supposed to say either when it comes to dialoguing with others. . .  I think I may have gotten my "eggs scrambled" plenty of times during the course of my old life before turning to Christ. 

God Bless!

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Here is a link to what JW's believe about this subject.  https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008245

Of course I don't agree with it, but still would like others input about how you would argue the points from Scripture in a teaching environment.

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I am not sure I understand or agree with all of what Omega wrote, although I could agree with portions of it. He seems to zero in on the word "forever", which only speaks to the two verses I supplied which seem to declare that the earth will never cease to exist. This does nothing to address the Scriptures that show that this earth, the universe and even the elements that make up all things will cease to exist.

In the following verse the Scripture uses the word "create" in referring to a new heavens and earth. The word "create", as used in Scripture indicates something brought into existence from nothing: Isa 65:17  For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

In this context swathdiver's statement that:  "The earth still exists, it's just remade." flies in the face of the definition of the word "create".

And let's remember what I asked in the beginning. How would you reconcile the differences in a teaching situation. This means more than just saying something about this subject, it needs to be able to be taught using Scripture.

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Thank you Jim for your honesty. I tend to over complicate words and their meanings in my reponses.

In all honesty, I would't make a too good of a bible teacher. I'll try to articulate my responses and word choices in a meaningful way, otherwise they can be confusing to some. I'm going to attempt to answer your query a nutshell. Adam and Eve had passed away a long time ago. Their bones are probably a pile of dust as we speak, and their bodies dissolved. 

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (2 Corinthians 5:1)

The Earth being made "new" is comparative of a born-again believer who physically dies eventually -- and gets turned into dust. However, even though the bodies of all men and women are subject to decay and will one day be completely dissolved; they are still referred to as Adam and Eve regardless when in their resurrected "new" bodies. The same with the Earth. It gets dissolved and made NEW. I'll speak more on this topic later on today.

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There are no contradictions as you (and anyone on this board) can rightly point out.  In the Bible -- and in theology -- two things can be and often are true, even if that offends pedestrian human logic.  But people who don't understand the power of God and who are not willing to look into the truth to understand often won't accept one or the other. The Jehovah's Witness is a prime example of this sort of behavior.  A similar example is that the new earth is created a new from nothing (ex nihilo) and is new in every way; however, it is still the earth.  The example I gave regarding the resurrection body really is a true parallel:  it is created anew in every way, and yet we are still us.  So forever does end with the eternal state when a new forever begins; but the earth itself both ends (looking at things from the standpoint of the present physical earth) and endures forever (looking at things from the point of view that the Lord will recreate the earth and it will be "the earth" even though it will be much better in every way).  Jesus said, " I AM the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." (Matt. 22:32). The bodies of Abraham, Isaac, and of Jacob are long gone and have passed away and most likely are completely dissolved into dust. And the reality of it is that Jesus said that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. They still exist even after they have long passed away. In the same manner . . . this is what is going to happen with the Earth and the Universe as it passes away. This may be uncomfortable for some folks, but as the passages you adduce make quite clear, it's no good pretending that only one thing is true when both things are clearly true.  The right approach is to investigate and see how it is in the infinite power and wisdom of God that both can be and actually are true.

Edited by (Omega)
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On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 4:58 AM, Jim_Alaska said:

How would you reconcile these verses in a teaching situation?

I do know and understand that Scripture does not contradict itself. But how would you reconcile the seeming contradictions we find in the verses I list below?

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Isa 24:1
  Behold, the LORD maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth abroad the inhabitants thereof.
Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Isa 65:17
  For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
 Ps 104:5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
 Ec 1:4  One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.

Hi Jim,

I would like to give my thoughts. In those scriptures we have two different events - one at the end of the tribulation and the other at the end of the Millennium.

First the Apostle Peter by the Holy Spirit reveals the final cleansing of the polluted earth and heavens - all burnt up with fervent heat.

Secondly we read by the prophet Isaiah that God will lay waste the earth after the tribulation. After the mighty and great earthquake that lays waste the cities of the earth, plus levelling the isles and mountains, we see that there are only à few men left,` to go into the millennium. All the description of Isaiah 24 is shown again in Revelation, especially ch. 6.

This is but a short answer however I can go into more detail if you so desire.

Marilyn.

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Thank you for your thoughts Marilyn. In reading what you wrote I am not seeing any reconciliation between some Scriptures showing that the earth will be destroyed and others showing that it will remain forever.

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I see it much like Swathdiver mentioned.

All of creation was affected by man's sin. God will purge the heavens and the earth of all that was affected due to man's sin...effectively destroying them through fire. However, they will remain and be made new.

Kind of like purifying gold maybe? Gold is burned and melted "with fervent heat" to remove the impurities...but the gold remains.

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Thanks NN. But taking your illustration into account I still have to reconcile this:  Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
Isa 65:17
  For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

This does not sound like any kind of remaking, it sounds more like a total destruction, with nothing left of the old. There is a huge difference in meaning between the word "made" and "create".

For instance, I can make a cake by using existing ingredients. But I cannot create one from nothing.

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I see absolutely NO contradiction at all. Yes, "made" and "create" do not have the same meaning.

Isaiah 65:17 CLEARLY describes an annihilation of the Earth no matter how many contextual gymnastics one tries to make it sound as if it doesn't.

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Genesis 3:19)

BOTH Isaiah 65:17 and Genesis 3:19 speak of the complete and utter destruction of the human body and the Earth, that is established as fact. I, Danny, will die one day and my body will be utterly destroyed. However, in the Eternal State when God makes ALL things NEW. I will still be "DANNY" when I am given a NEW body that is designed to Glorify God. LIKEWISE, The Earth (even after is is decimated) will one day become a NEW Earth, but it is still called "EARTH" nonetheless, just as I will still be called "Danny" after by "earthly" tabernacle" is dissolved. 

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.(2 Corinthians 5:1)

Our "earthly house" obviously refers to the human body, and it will be completely AND physically destroyed one day, but when it is raised in Glory, it will exist again -- but it is still US. I find it interesting that Paul uses the word "earthly" house when referring to a human body. The human body and the earth is a perfect analogy of utter destruction and being made completely NEW. I will take a closer look at the link on the JW website when I have the time and do a dissertation on it.

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Thanks Omega, this does make sense. I would however remind us that I did not say there was a contradiction. I asked in my original post how would you reconcile the seeming contradictions we find in the verses below.

I also said, "I do know and understand that Scripture does not contradict itself."

I hope no one sees this as being contentious, I just want to be very clear on what is being asked.

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