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Eternal Security vs O.S.A.S

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On December 16, 2017 at 12:06 PM, HappyChristian said:

One thing of which to be aware: most Calvinists (or those who follow reformed doctrine) are against the idea of OSAS for simply because: they do not believe in an individual's free will acceptance of Christ as Savior.  They believe that the elect must persevere in order to prove out that they are, indeed, part of the elect. And, should they "unpersevere" (stray away from the paths of righteousness), that is proof of never having been part of the elect to begin with. 

We are indeed always saved, once we are truly saved. However, there is an easy believism that has permeated Christianity that causes problems. One of those problems is false profession. Another is false security. Salvation is simple. It truly is. But it does involve repentance, which far too many people have popularized now as a "work" and therefore cannot be part of salvation. 

The fine line is that many of those who pray a prayer are trusting in that prayer, rather than the person of Christ. Assurance comes from the fact that they prayed. And as they continue in life, regardless of what they become involved in, they look back to that prayer and assure themselves (or their family assures themselves) that "once saved, always saved."

Two examples that my husband and I just discussed come to mind. We know two young men who we watched grow up...both of them made professions as children. And, boy, did they know scripture! And yet...they are both homosexual and proud of it. They are both "married" and successful. No hint of any conviction, no "doubts" that they are indeed saved, because "once saved, always saved."

Now, I know folks might say that we cannot judge the heart, so maybe they are. I'm sorry, but that's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible does NOT teach that anyone will LOSE their salvation. But it DOES teach that there are false professors.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit - we have an apple tree that has been dying for a while. The fruit has not been very good at all.

This is true of people as well. We are all corrupt until we are truly saved. If we make a profession, but our fruit is corrupt, we are not saved. That does NOT mean a saved person will never sin. It DOES mean that a saved person will be convicted because he or she is indwelt by Almighty God, and God is, upon salvation, working to form us to the image of His Son. God is not going to allow His child to live in continual, habitual abomination. 

Now, let me again say that once we are saved, we are always saved. But the term has become a mantra for those who want to convince themselves that they can willfully and continually sin and be saved - and no conviction of sin, no consequence of that continual, willful sin. 

There is a balance - once we are saved, we are saved. We are still in our physical bodies, and so there will be sin. But a truly born-again believer will be convicted - and if the person doesn't respond to the conviction, spiritual spanking will follow somehow (else, the Bible says, we are not His children).  If none of the happens, the person was never truly saved. Salvation was not lost, it was never had to begin with. I am not averse to using the phrase "once saved, always saved," because once a person is saved, it is for always. Eternal security.

Phew - just some really quick thoughts this morning. I hope it makes sense...and if there is anyone out there who can explain it better, please jump in.

Thank you SO much, HappyChristian!

Yes, that makes complete sense & I totally agree with everything you said and it is all biblically sound.

Sounds like the homos just did the '123 repeat after me' nonsense. Their verbal profession meant absolutely nothing if they first did not believe on Christ in their heart, which it doesn't sound like it. Whoever gave them the Gospel didn't do a thorough job, and should have questioned & made sure that they really UNDERSTOOD AND BELIEVED the Gospel instead of allowing them to think that just saying the prayer could save them.  

At any rate, I was starting to worry because I am saved but I still struggle with an old habit: smoking cigarettes. (I know, it is a disgusting, expensive & unhealthy habit, and I am ashamed & even embarrassed to reveal that I will be 40 in a few years & still struggle with it )

I started (stupidly) as a teenager, not thinking I'd get hooked since I was young, and so of course I thought I knew everything :laugh:

But then, After getting saved and wanting to get sin out of my life, that seemed to really be the one I kept going back to. I hate it & it is frustrating, because I know it's wrong & I will manage to quit for a year or two  & then temptation strikes out of nowhere & I'll slip up, buy a pack and smoke one, feel guilty, throw the rest away and start all over again. It's a vicious cycle & sometimes it takes every ounce of willpower just to get through an hour without giving in. 

I  heard it is supposed to get easier with time, and while there is some truth in that, I have still battled it for over a decade. I pray one day that I abstain completely & never smoke again.

So, since that technically makes me a "habitual" sinner, I got confused, because my spirit testifies that I am genuinely saved.

Thank you again for your kindness, patience & clarification. :)

 

 

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(Let me add that many folks teach that OSAS is a calvinist doctrine, because of their belief in perseverance - which is tied into their idea of salvation...I said above that most are against it, not because they don't teach it, but because they must persevere or they aren't part of the elect...that isn't biblical, and actually puts the onus on the believer)

I'm glad it helped you, BabeinChrist. Sadly, sin can grab hold of us and get a stranglehold. Stay in God's Word, spend time in prayer, and continue to ask God to deliver you from this. He will. Sometimes something like this takes a  long time, sometimes it's instantaneous. My own parents smoked and knew it was wrong. They quit, and then very foolishly (my mom's word, not mine) started again (they were out of church at the time). They got things right with God, got back into church...but it was years before they were able to quit. 

Addictions are very real, and smoking is no less of one than any other.  I'll be praying for you.

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Salvation can be lost but it is not trivial.  We have it within ourselves to either reject where God leads or follow where He leads; to fall away or endure; to disobey or to obey; to love God and fellow man or to tolerate God and fellow man.  The warnings in scripture are many and clear.  When one espouses this doctrine, there is always a misunderstanding of God's sovereignty, our receiving of God's promises, or the nature of God.  Even the underlying Greek in scripture refutes the idea.  Friends in Christ, seek to remain faithful and follow where the Holy Spirit leads for He will not lead you wrong whereas man often does.  God Bless......

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3 hours ago, Gregg said:

Salvation can be lost but it is not trivial.  We have it within ourselves to either reject where God leads or follow where He leads; to fall away or endure; to disobey or to obey; to love God and fellow man or to tolerate God and fellow man.  The warnings in scripture are many and clear.  When one espouses this doctrine, there is always a misunderstanding of God's sovereignty, our receiving of God's promises, or the nature of God.  Even the underlying Greek in scripture refutes the idea.  Friends in Christ, seek to remain faithful and follow where the Holy Spirit leads for He will not lead you wrong whereas man often does.  God Bless......

Answer a few questions for me please: 

1. What names does God use for "Salvation life"?  (I will give you these ones) There are two main ones: Everlasting life, and Eternal life.

2. If something is everlasting, what does that mean exactly?

3. If something is eternal, what does that means exactly?

4. If something can end, was it EVER everlasting?

5. If something can end, was it EVER eternal?

 

With all the verse arguments that go on, sometimes people forget the simple facts.

God, not men, calls Salvation life both everlasting and eternal. These names can only properly be used to refer to something that was, is, and always be eternal or everlasting.

If God says something is eternal, and then it ends - for any reason whatsoever - then that makes God a liar.

If God says something is everlasting, and then it ends - for any reason whatsoever - then that makes God a liar.

 

Now remember, these are not my names for salvation life, but God's names.

So one last question: Why would God use terms that indicate that salvation life is both eternal and everlasting, if that salvation life can be lost in way for any reason? He would be lying in His use of those terms.

I know I haven't quoted any verses "Proving" you can't lose your salvation, but you all the verses I am talking about:

 

Mat 25:46
(46)  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mar 10:30
(30)  But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
 

Joh 3:15
(15)  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16
(16)  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:36
(36)  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 4:36
(36)  And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

Joh 5:24
(24)  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 5:39
(39)  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 6:27
(27)  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

I could of course go on, but you get the idea.

And of course I know this is a really simplistic argument, but if it is so simple, then it should be a breeze to answer - but no one has ever explained it away to me.

Eternal and everlasting are God's names for salvation life, and if salvation can be lost, then it is not everlasting nor eternal and NEVER WAS.

 

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5 hours ago, Gregg said:

Salvation can be lost

If you could "lose" or CHOSE TO LEAVE eternal Salvation then an all knowing God would have never given it to you in the first place.

Ephesians 1:4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

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There are two posts here; let me try to respond to both.  Eternal salvation has not occurred.  In fact there are many scriptures that reference that salvation is a process leading to a future event - our salvation (let me know if you want those scriptures).  We tend to speak of it in the past tense under the mistaken assumption that once we have something we never lose it, hence we treat eternal salvation as something we have how and cannot be lost.  Once we are with Christ, what we have will be eternal.  However we have a life to live before God after coming to Christ and the list of warnings throughout the NT, as well as the descriptions of salvation being in the future, make clear that our choice here have consequences.  

On the second post; that is not a scriptural point.  It is an inference made - that is God would never give eternal life if they could lose it.  God chose the Israelites as His people yet not all will be saved.  God also told the Israelites they would all enter into the promised land but they all did not.  God told Hezekiah to put his affairs in order for he would die but he was given 15 more years.  God told Jonah that Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days but was not.  God told Eli that he and His family would minister before Him forever, but when they refused to honor God, they no longer were able to minister.  In short, if you read through the OT, we see God react to man over and over and over even though He has stated specific things.  Just for the record, this DOES NOT make God untruthful in any way.  It means that God has intentions to do exactly what He said He would but mans actions have consequences after God has spoken.  When those chosen do not act faithfully they are often destroyed, yet God finds someone else through which to fulfill His promises.   This is the essence of the interaction between man and God  (i seem to remember that Calvin understood this).  Finally, just because Christ knows who are his, the counter argument is not true; those who think they are his are not necessarily His for "why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do what i say?".  In scripture Christ has told people that "knew" Christ that "he never knew them" and "i know you not".  There are two ways to read scripture: in the flesh and in the spirit and it is relatively easy to determine which is which.  If we are reading scripture so that we use it to justify ourselves and our actions, we are reading in the flesh.  If we are reading scripture to seek to truly do God's will, then we are reading in the Spirit.   The flesh and the spirit are at odds.  

While you quote scripture (++), those passages must be examined for what they are really teaching; spend a little more time with these brother.  Just as a simple example, what the foreknowledge of God based on?  What is the idea of pluck (harpazo - carried off by force) really mean?  Perhaps you should consider Dan Barker, Marty Sampson, Joshua Harris, (and these are just a few). Finally, you did not state any of the balancing scriptures (let me know if you want those scriptures).  

God does not force us to remain faithful, nor will He welcome into His kingdom those who are committed to rebelling against Him.  God does help us to remain faithful; praise God for that.   He does this through the Spirit and through discipline, but stiff necked people do not always respond to discipline.  That is shown in the OT; hence the warnings in the NT.   However the idea that no matter what we do once we come to God, has no eternal impact is creating more lukewarm and rebellious people than one might believe.  It is THE reason that Christ will tell people that either a) "He never knew them" or b) "I know you not".  Yet these people believe they are saved.

Those who pay selective inattention to warnings of the most High reject what God warns about (credit to Dale Moody). 

I leave you with this teaching to those Christians who were not living faithfully (note it is the man that soweth below and the man who will reap).

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting"

We can absolutely trust God if we committed to being are faithful even if we occasionally fall.  It is those who want to live their lives the way they want, often in rebellion to God yet still expect to claim His promises which are at risk.    All God's best......

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2 hours ago, Gregg said:

There are two posts here; let me try to respond to both.  Eternal salvation has not occurred.  In fact there are many scriptures that reference that salvation is a process leading to a future event - our salvation (let me know if you want those scriptures).  We tend to speak of it in the past tense under the mistaken assumption that once we have something we never lose it, hence we treat eternal salvation as something we have how and cannot be lost.  Once we are with Christ, what we have will be eternal.  However we have a life to live before God after coming to Christ and the list of warnings throughout the NT, as well as the descriptions of salvation being in the future, make clear that our choice here have consequences. 

1 John 5:13 (KJV) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Written in the present tense, not a future event.

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So in other words you, like everyone else I have asked, cannot answer the simple matter of the names God chose to use for salvation life, but choose instead to sidestep, redefine, and ignore the plain and basic truth.

Eternal life cannot be eternal if it ends for any reason.

Everlasting life isn't and NEVER WAS everlasting if ends for any reason.

And OF COURSE we want Scriptures for your points. We are not interested in Calvin's lies and false doctrines.

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Gregg, the examples that you've given had to do with earthly/physical happenings. Salvation is spiritual.

Man can do nothing of his own merit or works to earn salvation, nor can his merits or works cause him to remain saved or cause the loss of salvation. His merits and works can make his relationship with God stronger, or his merits and works can break his fellowship with God...but not his relationship with God.

The word "saved" is an interesting word...it is a past-tense verb that defines past, present, and future happenings...

I was "saved" many years ago.

I am "saved" today.

I will be "saved" in the future.

No man can pluck us from his hand...and "no man" includes our self.

Christ said that if any man will come to him, he will not cast them out.

To say that we can lose salvation is to say that Christ is a sinner. Lying is a sin.

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Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

It's not my salvation to lose. The deal (covenant) was made in eternity past between God The Father and God The Son. The ONLY part I have in Salvation is accepting it. Once I accept it there is no provision in God's Word to un-accept it, or discard it.

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I simply would like to ask ,What happened to Adam? Adam was created without sin, he was created pure, he had a personal relationship with God, he talked to God daily, he was without sin and created in the image of God.Adam had eternal life to begin with and was a child of God. God warned him that if he took the forbidden fruit that he would die so this means he had life both physical and eternal. So what happen to Adam? He lost his eternal life .

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Adam lost his physical life and passed that defect on to all who followed him. There is no scripture that indicates he lost his spiritual life.Therefore our sin causes us to lose our physical life, but cannot take our spiritual life.

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Again, multiple replies answered here.   

1 John 5:13 is true as is all scripture.  While it is true it is rendered in the present tense, the salvation we have now is not the final deliverance; yet this is the only one that matters.  It is the event that counts.  If we are abiding in Christ today, then we currently are working out our salvation with fear and trembling. This is the present salvation.  Yet the eternal salvation is not here.  Our bodies are not eternal; nothing about this world is eternal.  We have not been delivered from sin.  This is why salvation is spoken of in multiple tenses.   So also is the resurrection of the dead. "The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit" and "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory."

Adam died spiritually; that is why we are all born dead spiritually.  Furthermore the Prodigal Son was spiritually alive, sinned and rejected his father and died spiritually, eventually coming back to his senses (and without the Father's pursuit as told) and coming back to life spiritually.  This is what scripture teaches; that is we can die spiritually.  This is shown in many passages including Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:21, Galatians 5:7-8, Luke 8:13, Rev 3:2, etc, etc, etc.  The examples i were to make the point that God does not play games.  When people live in rebellion to him, they have not received His promises.  Hebrews 4 "Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it"  

I answered directly the question of eternal life and final salvation.  We do NOT have it yet (not fully).  We will have it in the future assuming we are faithful.  Once it is eternal it is eternal.  That is the truth of the breadth of scripture.  Here are some of the scriptures; let me know if you want them pasted: Luke 21:28; Romans 13:11; Ephesians 4:30; I Peter 1:5; Hebrews 9:27,28.  There are those who will state that eternal life is not eternal life if it can be lost, yet the essence which makes all scripture true is that we have hold on eternal life but not the final event.  For example 1 Timothy 6:19, indicates we must take hold of that which is true life "Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life"  Lay hold is Greek epilambanomai meaning to "struggle to obtain [eternal life]"  "If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.   Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus"  

With respect to the post about the usage of scripture above, in some cases, there are errors, in some cases there are interpretations apart from the Greek.  As stated, harpazo is to carry off by force.  We do not carry ourselves off by force.  The essence of the passage is no one else can carry us off (except God).  In other cases, the idea of believing is in the Greek continuous present tense meaning we must keep believing; we must endure.  God is there to help but does not override our will......

There are many many scriptures which address loss of salvation; that is spiritual death.  it is tradition and men listening to men that causes this doctrine to propagate, yet the damage caused by it is untold.  

As i have stated if we are faithful, committed to serving our Lord, trying to obey and do what is right, we have no fear.  Yet any doctrine which  by logical extension assures Christians that no decisions they make on this earth have any effect on a person's salvation are simply leading people into sin and eternal separation from God.  This is the logical extension of the doctrine and most know it.  It causes sin and lukewarmness.  

I leave you with this (factual) blog

Be Ye Holy, even as I have been Ye holy! Thus saith the lord thy God!”, as pastor XXXXXXXXX would proclaim. Holy **I have a potty mouth**, religion is a waste. But this guy teaches (and convinced me) you can commit mass murder then still go to heaven.  Maybe soon, I will see God and Jesus. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did, we will all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge but that does not matter. I was reading the Bible and The Integrity of God beginning yesterday, because soon I will see them.

Shortly after this was written the person committed mass murder.......

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First point: this is a kjv forum. It is in the rules. Please only quote from the KJV.

Secondly, Jesus was very plainly speaking present tense using the terms everlasting (in these verses) and eternal in respect to salvation life.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. 

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 

No amount of maneuvering by you can change this fact.

Either it is eternal or it never was..........

It is very simple.

I believe on Him, I have HAVE eternal life. 

End of story.

If it can be lost, it is not, was not, and never will be eternal nor everlasting.

 

 

 

 

Edited by DaveW
Phone spelling

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The first Adam was Spiritually Safe because he was innocent and righteousness on his own merit before God and then was lost because he fell from his own innocents. This means he could no longer stand before God in his own grace. When we as children lose our innocents we then can no longer stand righteous before God and must submit to another's righteousness.

Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The second Adam still stands in his own righteousness and we who are saved from our fall stand with him in his righteousness and not our own. 

Jude 24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

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In one post you say "Eternal life does NOT depend on works." And in a post directly before it you say: "As i have stated if we are faithful, committed to serving our Lord, trying to obey and do what is right, we have no fear. This is works for salvation if we have to DO anything.

So which is it, works or no works?

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