Jump to content
Online Baptist

Eternal Security vs O.S.A.S


Recommended Posts

  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

There is an 800 page book by author Dan Corner, it supposedly has all the bible info on how and why you can lose your salvation. He cannot differentiate between Eternal Security and OSAS. OSAS is a license for immorality as he correctly mentions in his book, and at the same time says that Eternal Security and OSAS are one and the same with regards to a license for immorality. He explains why Eternal Security is dangerous and a damnable heresy because folks would say, "I can sin all Iwant, I am saved and can't lose it no matter how I live my life." This could not be further from the truth. It is written: "...and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." This is a promise that God will first justify us, then sanctify us (being conformed to the image of Christ) during our lifetime, and be completed upon Glorification. These are the three phases of Salvation. Once we are justified, our sanctification process begins until the day of Glorification. But we are justified ("saved") at the moment we put our Trust in Jesus as our Savior and Lord. Jesus said in John 5:24, "...He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." The word "hath" is a present tense possession, which means that we are saved at that very moment, and will never be condemned. The Grace of God does not lead to a license to sin, or a get out of hell free pass (Rom.6:1,2; Tit. 2:11,12). Titus 2:11,12 tells us that the Grace of God leads to holiness, not the other way around. It is written: "For the GRACE of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, TEACHING US that, DENYING UNGODLINESS and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world." Dan Corner's book even says to promote his book, "THIS IS AN 800 page whopper!!!" He meant that the book he wrote is HUGE in volume. I took the word "whopper" to mean a LIE. Ironic, isn't it? Another problem he has is not realizing how the New Covenant says that God will put His law in their "inward parts" (Jer.31:33) or their hearts, and not on stone tablets. This is an implication that God's righteousness will dwell within you and will not depart from it. If you're living in habitual sin, then most likely you are not saved at all. Paul commands us to examine yourselves to see whether you are truly saved, unless you are a reprobate (counterfeit Christians) (2 Cor.13:5). Examine your life and your fruits. Genuine Christians can "backslide", but they cannot "frontslide". True believers will go through a process of sanctification during their lifetime. If they're sinning habitually and their moral status has gone from worse to worse, then I would say to that person that he/she is more than likely NOT saved at all.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...
  • Members

Eternal security IS the same as Once saved, always saved.

You are teaching a works-based false doctrine. Salvation is NOT a "process", it is an occurrence which happens the moment you BELIEVE the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is a GIFT, given by the grace (because we do not deserve it) of God, paid for by the Blood of Jesus Christ, received the moment you BELIEVE, and once you receive it you will KNOW that you have just passed from death unto life everlasting, and once you receive it you CANNOT lose it.

Salvation absolutely means we are saved from Hell. Committing a sin after salvation does NOT mean one "loses" their salvation. Jesus PAID for ALL sins committed on this earth...past, present AND future.

Backsliding does NOT mean you lose your salvation. If you really think you can lose your salvation, then it's probably because you   Were not saved to begin with.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
10 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

Eternal security IS the same as Once saved, always saved.

You are teaching a works-based false doctrine. Salvation is NOT a "process", it is an occurrence which happens the moment you BELIEVE the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is a GIFT, given by the grace (because we do not deserve it) of God, paid for by the Blood of Jesus Christ, received the moment you BELIEVE, and once you receive it you will KNOW that you have just passed from death unto life everlasting, and once you receive it you CANNOT lose it.

Salvation absolutely means we are saved from Hell. Committing a sin after salvation does NOT mean one "loses" their salvation. Jesus PAID for ALL sins committed on this earth...past, present AND future.

Backsliding does NOT mean you lose your salvation. If you really think you can lose your salvation, then it's probably because you   Were not saved to begin with.

Once saved always saved is NOT the same as Eternal Security. OSAS  teached that we can sin all we want and still be saved. And yes, that type of professing Christian was never saved to begin with. You've completely taken my words out of context. Re-read the above, because I quoted John 5:24, and even mentioned that we are saved at that moment we believe. It is a PRESENT tense possession. And nowhere in my post suggests that we can "lose" our salvation. And to accuse me of teaching a false doctrine shows that you have not thouroughly read my post.  Neither did I say that backsliding equates to losing your Salvation, and I made it crystal clear. As anyone who read my post can clearly see that you have misconstrued my belief in Eternal Security. Show me where in my post where I said that we can lose our salvation. You won't find it. You are preaching to the choir. See above. We are saved the moment we believe, but there is a "process" of growing in Christ and being conformed to His image once we ARE saved. It is justification, sanctification, and glorification. This is NOT a works based salvation. It is a process to where we are being "conformed " to the image of Christ. Almost every word you wrote is an misinterpretation of what I explained in this thread. Now show me where I said that we can lose our salvation. And show me where I said that salvation is a process. You won't find it anywhere in my post. I am stunned at your accusations of me teaching a false doctrine. I can guarantee that the majority of the OB members can see how you have taken my words completely out of context. You can quote me and show where I made erroneous assumptions regarding losing ones salvation, and quote me where I said that salvation is a process. You will not find it.

Edited by (Omega)
Grammar
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members

So you do not believe that once you are saved you will always be saved? 

Once you receive the FREE GIFT of salvation that comes from BELIEVING the Gospel of Jesus Christ you are saved. OSAS simply means Once you are saved you WILL ALWAYS be saved; and that IS the eternal security of the believer. 

Even when a believer sins AFTER being saved, YES—-the believer IS STILL saved. 

ANY saved person can tell you that because EVERY saved person has committed sin after being saved, yet they still KNOW they are saved.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

I'm only going to say this once more because time is too valuable if you're just going to ask the same question over and over again and misconprehend what I've posted in my initial post. Eternal Security teaches that once you are TRULY saved, and a blood bought child of God, you cannot LOSE your Salvation. There are minute variations between Eternal Security and OSAS. And as small the differences are, it only takes a drop of deadly toxin to make someone take a dirt nap. I would advise you to do some research. OSAS teaches that once you are saved, you will always remain saved regardless of how you live your life. That is not what the Word of God teaches. It is a get out of hell free pass, or so the proponents of this false doctrine believes, and it comes straight from the pits of hell. Paul said that we should NOT go on sinning once were saved so that Grace may abound (Rom.6:1). Anyone who do so without repentance show their fruits, and they are rotten and spoiled, and the tree dies and withers away. Eternal Security is found in many passages in the bible (e.g., Jn.3:16; 10:27; Rom.5:1; 8:30-39; 11:29; Eph.1:13,14; 4:30; Heb.7:25; 13:5; 1 Pet.1:5; 1 Jn.3:9; 5:4...and many more), but NONE of them teach that once you are saved, you can sin like the devil and still be saved. Such bible teachers as Charles Stanley teaches that you remain saved, even if you STOP BELIEVING. This is a dangerous doctrine and will send many to the Lake of Fire. An unbeliever's lot is in the Lake of Fire (cf. Rev.21:8; Jn.3:18). And yes, these professing, counterfeit "Christians" were never saved to begin with.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Administrators

Here is an article by Dr. Henry Ironside that outlines truth of The Eternal Security of  the believer. He puts this together in a scriptural and easy to read manner. Henry Ironside was a well respected and sought after preacher from the last century.

I am attaching the article to this post. It is my hope that providing this will clear up some misconceptions and bring out the glorious truth that our God is able to provide a salvation that cannot be lost or taken away once it is given.

ETERNAL SECURITY.doc

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
18 hours ago, (Omega) said:

I'm only going to say this once more because time is too valuable if you're just going to ask the same question over and over again and misconprehend what I've posted in my initial post. Eternal Security teaches that once you are TRULY saved, and a blood bought child of God, you cannot LOSE your Salvation. There are minute variations between Eternal Security and OSAS. And as small the differences are, it only takes a drop of deadly toxin to make someone take a dirt nap. I would advise you to do some research. OSAS teaches that once you are saved, you will always remain saved regardless of how you live your life. That is not what the Word of God teaches. It is a get out of hell free pass, or so the proponents of this false doctrine believes, and it comes straight from the pits of hell. Paul said that we should NOT go on sinning once were saved so that Grace may abound (Rom.6:1). Anyone who do so without repentance show their fruits, and they are rotten and spoiled, and the tree dies and withers away. Eternal Security is found in many passages in the bible (e.g., Jn.3:16; 10:27; Rom.5:1; 8:30-39; 11:29; Eph.1:13,14; 4:30; Heb.7:25; 13:5; 1 Pet.1:5; 1 Jn.3:9; 5:4...and many more), but NONE of them teach that once you are saved, you can sin like the devil and still be saved. Such bible teachers as Charles Stanley teaches that you remain saved, even if you STOP BELIEVING. This is a dangerous doctrine and will send many to the Lake of Fire. An unbeliever's lot is in the Lake of Fire (cf. Rev.21:8; Jn.3:18). And yes, these professing, counterfeit "Christians" were never saved to begin with.

I certainly am not trying to waste your time, I merely wish to clarify what it means to believe OSAS, because we seem to have very different understandings of what it means & I am attempting to perceive your perspective on the subject.

Firstly, I want to ask you: Are you 100% CERTAIN that if you died today you would go to Heaven/Are YOU saved? 

OSAS simply teaches that once you are saved you cannot lose your salvation; your eternity is secure---yes--REGARDLESS of how you live your life. But does that mean I am saying once we are saved, that we SHOULD sin without a care & turn grace into lasciviousness? God Forbid. 

I can't think of a single saved person who would suggest such a thing or say, "Hey, no worries! You're saved...now you are free to go out and REALLY sin it up & transgress God to your heart's delight!" ......No saved person would encourage sin, because when you are saved you are born-again, indwelled with the Holy Spirit  which causes you to hate sin, not embrace it. And from what I gather, you seem to equate that when someone claims that, once you are saved, you are always saved(cannot lose salvation) it is like granting the person who is saved a license to sin, so to speak.

But that isn't what OSAS means.

Also, getting out of Hell IS FREE, at least, for us. It is a FREE GIFT. It doesn't cost us ANYTHING, because JESUS CHRIST is the one who paid for the gift. HE already did all the work to buy the gift for us & purchase our souls from the Hell we deserve.

Once you believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, you  receive the gift of salvation He purchased for you with His own blood. The instant you receive it you KNOW you just received salvation & that you are, from that point forward, SAVED.

The very word "Saved" is past tense, because once you get saved, it's a done deal. 

The Holy Spirit testifies to your spirit that you are, indeed, saved, and that NEVER goes away. Not even when you sin (you should still resist sin with all your might ).

Not sure about Charles Stanley, as I'm not a big fan of TV preachers,(most are heretics), but I am not sure if he's saved. If he was saved he wouldn't have said something like that because when you genuinely believe on Jesus Christ, you KNOW it's true; you won't arbitrarily STOP believing the truth once you really believe. I don't think I could "stop" believing on Christ even if I tried.

When you are saved, God KNOWS you, and you KNOW Him. He holds you in His Hand, which is stronger than any other hand. Even if you tried to let  go of His Hand, He is still holding on to yours & won't let you perish, and nobody is strong enough to pull you from His Hand.

 

"My sheep hear my voice and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.".....John 10:27-30

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
8 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

I certainly am not trying to waste your time, I merely wish to clarify what it means to believe OSAS, because we seem to have very different understandings of what it means & I am attempting to perceive your perspective on the subject.

 

https://carm.org/what-is-the-difference-between-eternal-security-once-saved-always-saved-and-perseverance-of-the-saints

8 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

Firstly, I want to ask you: Are you 100% CERTAIN that if you died today you would go to Heaven/Are YOU saved? 

 

Absolutely!

 

8 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

OSAS simply teaches that once you are saved you cannot lose your salvation; your eternity is secure---yes--REGARDLESS of how you live your life. But does that mean I am saying once we are saved, that we SHOULD sin without a care & turn grace into lasciviousness? God Forbid. 

 

Incorrect. If you're living your life in habitual sin (adultery, fornication, theft, murder,etc.) then you are most likely never saved to begin with.

 

8 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

I can't think of a single saved person who would suggest such a thing or say, "Hey, no worries! You're saved...now you are free to go out and REALLY sin it up & transgress God to your heart's delight!" ......No saved person would encourage sin, because when you are saved you are born-again, indwelled with the Holy Spirit  which causes you to hate sin, not embrace it. And from what I gather, you seem to equate that when someone claims that, once you are saved, you are always saved(cannot lose salvation) it is like granting the person who is saved a license to sin, so to speak.

https://carm.org/what-is-the-difference-between-eternal-security-once-saved-always-saved-and-perseverance-of-the-saints

8 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

Also, getting out of Hell IS FREE, at least, for us. It is a FREE GIFT. It doesn't cost us ANYTHING, because JESUS CHRIST is the one who paid for the gift. HE already did all the work to buy the gift for us & purchase our souls from the Hell we deserve.

 

 

Absolutely!

 

8 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

The very word "Saved" is past tense, because once you get saved, it's a done deal. 

Yes, I know. It is also in the present tense too. See John 5:24

 

8 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

The Holy Spirit testifies to your spirit that you are, indeed, saved, and that NEVER goes away. Not even when you sin (you should still resist sin with all your might ).

Absolutely!

 

8 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

Not sure about Charles Stanley, as I'm not a big fan of TV preachers,(most are heretics), but I am not sure if he's saved. If he was saved he wouldn't have said something like that because when you genuinely believe on Jesus Christ, you KNOW it's true; you won't arbitrarily STOP believing the truth once you really believe. I don't think I could "stop" believing on Christ even if I tried.

I don't know Charles Stanley personally. But that's what he said and I will let God be the judge.

 

9 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

When you are saved, God KNOWS you, and you KNOW Him. He holds you in His Hand, which is stronger than any other hand. Even if you tried to let  go of His Hand, He is still holding on to yours & won't let you perish, and nobody is strong enough to pull you from His Hand.

 

"My sheep hear my voice and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.".....John 10:27-30

I base my whole life on Eternal Security. I have studied this doctrine for over 30 years and believe in it wholeheartedly. As a matter of fact, I did a dissertation of it right here on Online Baptist. But I can't seem to find it. BroMatt must have archived it somewhere.

God Bless,

Daniel

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
On 11/27/2017 at 10:24 AM, (Omega) said:

Jesus said in John 5:24, "...He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." The word "hath" is a present tense possession, which means that we are saved at that very moment, and will never be condemned

 

On 11/27/2017 at 10:24 AM, (Omega) said:

The Grace of God does not lead to a license to sin, or a get out of hell free pass (Rom.6:1,2; Tit. 2:11,12). Titus 2:11,12 tells us that the Grace of God leads to holiness, not the other way around. It is written: "For the GRACE of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, TEACHING US that, DENYING UNGODLINESS and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world."

On 11/27/2017 at 10:24 AM, (Omega) said:

 If you're living in habitual sin, then most likely you are not saved at all. Paul commands us to examine yourselves to see whether you are truly saved, unless you are a reprobate (counterfeit Christians) (2 Cor.13:5). Examine your life and your fruits. Genuine Christians can "backslide", but they cannot "frontslide". True believers will go through a process of sanctification during their lifetime. If they're sinning habitually and their moral status has gone from worse to worse, then I would say to that person that he/she is more than likely NOT saved at all.

 

 

Edited by (Omega)
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The main verse on Eternal Security in which most bible teacher use is found here:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)

If you're living in habitual sin and claiming to be saved, then you are most likely NOT saved. Why? Jesus said that His sheep not only HEARS His voice, but they FOLLOW Him. Those are the characteristics of HIS sheep. Living in habitual sin and claiming to be Christian, and yet not FOLLOWING him proves that you are NOT His sheep. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
10 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

Firstly, I want to ask you: Are you 100% CERTAIN that if you died today you would go to Heaven/Are YOU saved? 

I just want to make mention that me, a friend of mine, and some associates have died. I know this sounds bizarre, but it is true. I went into full cardiac arrest and was pronounced clinically "dead". I saw my own body and was escorted by luminescent beings who wore golden sashes. As I progressed further into what seemed like a portal, I saw a bright light that became brighter and brighter as I progressed further. The light entirely consumed me and I felt like I was going to explode, and felt a love that I cannot describe in words. For some reason unbeknownst to me, I knew that it was the Lord God Almighty. I then entered a place where there were forests, grass, and rivers. The rivers were so pure that you can see through it like the most purest diamond. The grass and the trees were greener than here on Earth. There were also flowers that almost seemed as if they were alive. Furthermore, there was music playing that was "otherworldly", and cannot be duplicated here on Earth. It was the most beautiful music I have ever heard. I came back into my body and later had surgery done on me. I also want to make mention that I did not see the Father's House, or the New Jerusalem. I believe that we can only enter there at the finality of death.

Edited by (Omega)
The Father's House
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
5 hours ago, (Omega) said:

The main verse on Eternal Security in which most bible teacher use is found here:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. (John 10:27-29)

If you're living in habitual sin and claiming to be saved, then you are most likely NOT saved. Why? Jesus said that His sheep not only HEARS His voice, but they FOLLOW Him. Those are the characteristics of HIS sheep. Living in habitual sin and claiming to be Christian, and yet not FOLLOWING him proves that you are NOT His sheep. 

This is what I'm having trouble with: the last paragraph above. You say a person isn't really saved if they are living in "habitual sin". 

That simply is NOT true. ONLY Jesus Christ was without sin. YOU ARE a sinner. I am a sinner. Salvation does NOT make you perfect whilst still dwelling in our body of flesh. Our SPIRIT is regenerated, yes, but our human flesh is sinful. Indeed, we war against our flesh.

You realize that we probably sin everyday & even sin without realizing it, right? The Bible says even the THOUGHT of foolishness is sin. Just having a foolish thought is a sin. Even though we aren't committing major sins like adultery, fornication, murder, stealing, etc.,  committing one single sin , one little lie (and we've ALL told a lie before) is all it takes to condemn a person to Hell.

ONE sin. 

So, why do you keep saying "habitual", as if that somehow makes someone MORE guilty than one single sin?

You said : "Living in habitual sin and claiming to be Christian, and yet not FOLLOWING him proves you are NOT His sheep."

  Do you see how  that statement (which you have changed from original Scripture & inserted your own theories into) vaguely, yet positively, implies a works-based salvation? The original did not.

So let's examine it, because it is vague, ambiguous & can be interpreted in various ways, a couple of which I have listed below, one of the most troubling being

*When someone keeps Committing sin , (despite testifying that they BELIEVE on the Gospel of Jesus the Christ &  ALL their faith & trust is in HIS  righteousness--as they have none of their own--moving them to ask for & thereby receiving God's FREE gift of salvation & are now already saved) and are not out publicly doing Christian work, that is proof that He has NOT saved you.*     

          ~~~~~~OR~~~~~~~~

*As long as you do NOT sin, & follow all of God's commandments, and make sure everyone knows about it, then you have proven yourself worthy of being accepted as a Christian & proclaiming yourself His sheep.*

Whether you realize it or not, you keep trying to add works to grace for salvation. It cannot be both. It is either faith or works, and the Bible says it is by FAITH ALONE..I believe the Bible. 

i read a post of yours in another thread where you attack easy believism. 

I guess you must think it is hard getting saved. That's not what the Bible says. Believing on Christ IS easy. HE did the work. He KNEW we could NOT.  But many will not BELIEVE because they want to work their way there. They'll never make it that way.

I suppose you will think I must not be saved because I embrace OSAS & easy believism.. but I am. That's a fact. It has nothing to do with my  goodness , but rather it is the perfect goodness of Jesus, who bore my sins on the cross, and shed His innocent, precious blood in  my place & on my behalf over 2,000 years ago, then was raised bodily, proving I will also be raised up....THAT is WHY I will not endure Hell. 

I hope I see you in Heaven.

God Bless.

 

 

 

 

image.jpeg

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
1 hour ago, BabeinChrist said:

This is what I'm having trouble with: the last paragraph above. You say a person isn't really saved if they are living in "habitual sin".

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:9)

"Doth not commit sin" is in the active tense. It suggests that sin does not dominate a believers life. If you are born of God, you are a "new creation" in Christ. Do you understand what it means by new creation? Your old man has passed away and all things have become new. Is there a difference in the lifestyle of a true blood bought child of God and a non-believer? Or do you think that their lifestyles are the same? Ever heard of a habitual liar? It means they have an inclination to lie more often than lets say, someone who lies once in a while (e.g., once a week). I don't know how much clearer I can get. I certainly hope that you are not trolling me and just wanting to debate, because it almost seems like this. I have seen this demeanor on many Christian forums.

1 hour ago, BabeinChrist said:

That simply is NOT true. ONLY Jesus Christ was without sin. YOU ARE a sinner. I am a sinner. Salvation does NOT make you perfect whilst still dwelling in our body of flesh. Our SPIRIT is regenerated, yes, but our human flesh is sinful. Indeed, we war against our flesh.

 

Of course Jesus was without sin. That is Bible 101. Everyone sins, believers and non-believers. Nobody said that Salvation makes us perfect. The fact that you even made such a statement proves that you are not paying attention to my posts. I am concerned for your soul, because if someone is teaching a condemning false doctrine, that will result in a rude awakening when they face God. John 10:27 states:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. If you are a Greek grammarian, then you would understand that "hear my voice", and "they follow me" are in the active tense. This means that they are constantly hearing Jesus' voice, and constantly following Him. By the way, "they shall never perish" is what is referred to as a double emphatic negative, that means that (if I can paraphrase) they will in no way, not perish. I noticed how you capitalized "YOU ARE a sinner", and wrote in lower case that "I am a sinner." I wonder why?.......

1 hour ago, BabeinChrist said:

You realize that we probably sin everyday & even sin without realizing it, right? The Bible says even the THOUGHT of foolishness is sin. Just having a foolish thought is a sin. Even though we aren't committing major sins like adultery, fornication, murder, stealing, etc.,  committing one single sin , one little lie (and we've ALL told a lie before) is all it takes to condemn a person to Hell.

ONE sin. 

So, why do you keep saying "habitual", as if that somehow makes someone MORE guilty than one single sin?

You believe that people sin every day? Why would you even think in such a way? There is a poem I once read where a child asked her dad if it's possible to go a day without sinning, and her father responded by saying, "No you cannot." She then asked her dad, "Can you go an hour without sinning?", and her dad responded by saying, "I suppose it's possible." Then she told her Dad, "then I want to live my life for Jesus moment by moment." If you cannot differentiate what "habit" means, then I can no longer help you understand it, because it's transparent that a "habit" is something you practice or have a regular tendency to do something. Have you ever heard of a "habitual drunkard"? as opposed to someone who gets drunk once a year? Surely, even a child can understand this. This is why I am stunned that you cannot understand what I am saying to you, even with such clarity. Nobody said sinning less makes us less guilty. You keep putting words in my mouth that I never even said or suggested, and your behavior on this thread is not only very condemning, but accusing as well. 

1 hour ago, BabeinChrist said:

You said : "Living in habitual sin and claiming to be Christian, and yet not FOLLOWING him proves you are NOT His sheep."

  Do you see how  that statement (which you have changed from original Scripture & inserted your own theories into) vaguely, yet positively, implies a works-based salvation? The original did not.

So let's examine it, because it is vague, ambiguous & can be interpreted in various ways, a couple of which I have listed below, one of the most troubling being

*When someone keeps Committing sin , (despite testifying that they BELIEVE on the Gospel of Jesus the Christ &  ALL their faith & trust is in HIS  righteousness--as they have none of their own--moving them to ask for & thereby receiving God's FREE gift of salvation & are now already saved) and are not out publicly doing Christian work, that is proof that He has NOT saved you.*     

You are accusing me again. I was explaining the "context" of that passage. Did Jesus say that His sheep follow Him? Yes! Did Jesus say that His sheep hear His voice? Yes! As I said it before, the words "hear" and "follow" is in the active tense. So if you're constantly NOT hearing to His voice, and constantly NOT following Him, how then can you be His sheep if those are the "characteristics" of His sheep? This is not an insertion into the bible or my own theories, it's an expository explanation in context what Jesus is trying to relay to His hearers. One can claim that they are a Christian until they are blue in the face, but that does not make it so. Yes, it is His righteousness that is imputed to us; however, Jesus did not die on the Cross just to save us from hell, but He also died so that we may have a "newness of life." A life not dominated by sin. It is written: "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt. 7:22,23) This is why I am concerned for your soul, because you believe that you can sin all you want and still be saved. This is a very dangerous and damnable doctrine. 

It is written:" Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (1 Cor.5:17)

It is also written:"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." The word "overcometh" is also in the active tense, suggesting that the true believer has the propensity to overcome evil and worldly desires.

He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. (John 14:21).

If you get drunk every day and profess to be Christian, it only proves that you do not love Jesus. Now, I am not inserting anything into that text, that's what the context teaches. Also, I am not referring to not doing "works", I am referring to a persons lifestyle. 

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor.6:9,10

2 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

 

          ~~~~~~OR~~~~~~~~

*As long as you do NOT sin, & follow all of God's commandments, and make sure everyone knows about it, then you have proven yourself worthy of being accepted as a Christian & proclaiming yourself His sheep.*

Whether you realize it or not, you keep trying to add works to grace for salvation. It cannot be both. It is either faith or works, and the Bible says it is by FAITH ALONE..I believe the Bible. 

i read a post of yours in another thread where you attack easy believism. 

I guess you must think it is hard getting saved. That's not what the Bible says. Believing on Christ IS easy. HE did the work. He KNEW we could NOT.  But many will not BELIEVE because they want to work their way there. They'll never make it that way.

I suppose you will think I must not be saved because I embrace OSAS & easy believism.. but I am. That's a fact. It has nothing to do with my  goodness , but rather it is the perfect goodness of Jesus, who bore my sins on the cross, and shed His innocent, precious blood in  my place & on my behalf over 2,000 years ago, then was raised bodily, proving I will also be raised up....THAT is WHY I will not endure Hell. 

I hope I see you in Heaven.

God Bless.

 

Once again, I never mentioned "works". You are not paying attention and putting words in my mouth again. This is the reason why I believe that you may be here just to argue with me, or trolling. I am reluctant to say that, but that's what it appears to me. Because I find it almost impossible how someone can ask the same questions over and over again, and accuse me of saying things about me in which I never said. This saddens me. And this is why I am concerned for your soul. Your word choices (e.g., "attack") suggests an accusatory manner on your part. Easy believism is a false doctrine. It teaches that you can sin like the devil and still be saved. Jesus came not only to pay the ultimate price for our sins, but to destroy the power of sin too. 

It is written: "Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen."

I never said that you are not saved, but your words, "I hope to see you in heaven" suggests that you think that I might not be saved. I know wholeheartedly that I am saved, and neither you, the devil, or anyone on this planet can tell me otherwise. It is the adversary who wants to make me believe that I am not saved. Obviously he failed at that. :) I don't know you personally, but from your beliefs, it gives me great concern that your soul may be in Jeopardy; but once again, I don't know you personally and what type of life that you live. I truly care about you, and I suggest that you do some more research and study on this topic because there are so many holes in your argument to the point where I find it astounding. And I certainly hope that you are not just here to "win" some sort of debate because that is not my motive, but it "seems" that way for you when I read your posts. I also noticed that you are tracking my posts. I pray that this is not the case, and I apologize if that isn't the case. I really don't know you. This will be my last post, and if you decide to respond to this, feel free to. I am here to help you understand the glorious truth of the Cross and its power to destroy a lifestyle of sin in our lives. Take care babeinchrist!

God Bless,

Daniel

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members

Ok, I took HappyChristian's advice. (Which was helpful, btw, thank you HC)

Just so we're clear, I am not trolling, instigating debate or attempting to sow discord amongst brethren. I tend to be a very straightforward woman & I hope that does not come off as being abrasive because I really do not mean it that way. 

I apologize if I have rubbed anyone here the wrong way, including you, Daniel. :sorry:

I am struggling to understand this teaching, because I have not heard it before, and have never even met anyone who believes in eternal security that does NOT believe OSAS.

It just doesn't make sense to me, so I'm trying to see what I'm missing, and hoping someone more seasoned in this particular subject can help fill in the missing pieces.

So, here's where I am at with this.....From what I've studied, & what I've heard preached, OSAS IS the doctrine referring to the eternal security of the Believer.

if anyone else understands this differently, please feel free to let me know.

Kind Regards,

Claire

Edited by BabeinChrist
Typo darn auto-correct
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Absolutely no offense taken. :) As HappyChristian said, the differences are minute in detail, and not very difficult to understand. I am 61 years old and have been studying biblical doctrines for almost 30 years, especially doctrines regarding Salvation. I have done public debates on Eternal Security with proponents of "Conditional Security", and those who believe that we can lose our Salvation. So if you're still having difficulty differentiating between Eternal Security and OSAS, then it's probably because the word choices that I use are poor. It's also that I'm having trouble with my memory these days. There are several Pastors on this board, and I am certain that they can explain it to you more articulately and eloquently than I can. So feel free to reach out to them. I am sure that they would be willing to help you out, if they have the time to do so.

God Bless,

Daniel

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Lady Administrators

One thing of which to be aware: most Calvinists (or those who follow reformed doctrine) are against the idea of OSAS for simply because: they do not believe in an individual's free will acceptance of Christ as Savior.  They believe that the elect must persevere in order to prove out that they are, indeed, part of the elect. And, should they "unpersevere" (stray away from the paths of righteousness), that is proof of never having been part of the elect to begin with. 

We are indeed always saved, once we are truly saved. However, there is an easy believism that has permeated Christianity that causes problems. One of those problems is false profession. Another is false security. Salvation is simple. It truly is. But it does involve repentance, which far too many people have popularized now as a "work" and therefore cannot be part of salvation. 

The fine line is that many of those who pray a prayer are trusting in that prayer, rather than the person of Christ. Assurance comes from the fact that they prayed. And as they continue in life, regardless of what they become involved in, they look back to that prayer and assure themselves (or their family assures themselves) that "once saved, always saved."

Two examples that my husband and I just discussed come to mind. We know two young men who we watched grow up...both of them made professions as children. And, boy, did they know scripture! And yet...they are both homosexual and proud of it. They are both "married" and successful. No hint of any conviction, no "doubts" that they are indeed saved, because "once saved, always saved."

Now, I know folks might say that we cannot judge the heart, so maybe they are. I'm sorry, but that's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible does NOT teach that anyone will LOSE their salvation. But it DOES teach that there are false professors.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit - we have an apple tree that has been dying for a while. The fruit has not been very good at all.

This is true of people as well. We are all corrupt until we are truly saved. If we make a profession, but our fruit is corrupt, we are not saved. That does NOT mean a saved person will never sin. It DOES mean that a saved person will be convicted because he or she is indwelt by Almighty God, and God is, upon salvation, working to form us to the image of His Son. God is not going to allow His child to live in continual, habitual abomination. 

Now, let me again say that once we are saved, we are always saved. But the term has become a mantra for those who want to convince themselves that they can willfully and continually sin and be saved - and no conviction of sin, no consequence of that continual, willful sin. 

There is a balance - once we are saved, we are saved. We are still in our physical bodies, and so there will be sin. But a truly born-again believer will be convicted - and if the person doesn't respond to the conviction, spiritual spanking will follow somehow (else, the Bible says, we are not His children).  If none of the happens, the person was never truly saved. Salvation was not lost, it was never had to begin with. I am not averse to using the phrase "once saved, always saved," because once a person is saved, it is for always. Eternal security.

Phew - just some really quick thoughts this morning. I hope it makes sense...and if there is anyone out there who can explain it better, please jump in.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
1 hour ago, HappyChristian said:

One thing of which to be aware: most Calvinists (or those who follow reformed doctrine) are against the idea of OSAS for simply because: they do not believe in an individual's free will acceptance of Christ as Savior.  They believe that the elect must persevere in order to prove out that they are, indeed, part of the elect. And, should they "unpersevere" (stray away from the paths of righteousness), that is proof of never having been part of the elect to begin with. 

We are indeed always saved, once we are truly saved. However, there is an easy believism that has permeated Christianity that causes problems. One of those problems is false profession. Another is false security. Salvation is simple. It truly is. But it does involve repentance, which far too many people have popularized now as a "work" and therefore cannot be part of salvation. 

The fine line is that many of those who pray a prayer are trusting in that prayer, rather than the person of Christ. Assurance comes from the fact that they prayed. And as they continue in life, regardless of what they become involved in, they look back to that prayer and assure themselves (or their family assures themselves) that "once saved, always saved."

Two examples that my husband and I just discussed come to mind. We know two young men who we watched grow up...both of them made professions as children. And, boy, did they know scripture! And yet...they are both homosexual and proud of it. They are both "married" and successful. No hint of any conviction, no "doubts" that they are indeed saved, because "once saved, always saved."

Now, I know folks might say that we cannot judge the heart, so maybe they are. I'm sorry, but that's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible does NOT teach that anyone will LOSE their salvation. But it DOES teach that there are false professors.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit - we have an apple tree that has been dying for a while. The fruit has not been very good at all.

This is true of people as well. We are all corrupt until we are truly saved. If we make a profession, but our fruit is corrupt, we are not saved. That does NOT mean a saved person will never sin. It DOES mean that a saved person will be convicted because he or she is indwelt by Almighty God, and God is, upon salvation, working to form us to the image of His Son. God is not going to allow His child to live in continual, habitual abomination. 

Now, let me again say that once we are saved, we are always saved. But the term has become a mantra for those who want to convince themselves that they can willfully and continually sin and be saved - and no conviction of sin, no consequence of that continual, willful sin. 

There is a balance - once we are saved, we are saved. We are still in our physical bodies, and so there will be sin. But a truly born-again believer will be convicted - and if the person doesn't respond to the conviction, spiritual spanking will follow somehow (else, the Bible says, we are not His children).  If none of the happens, the person was never truly saved. Salvation was not lost, it was never had to begin with. I am not averse to using the phrase "once saved, always saved," because once a person is saved, it is for always. Eternal security.

Phew - just some really quick thoughts this morning. I hope it makes sense...and if there is anyone out there who can explain it better, please jump in.

I knew you could explain it with clarity better than I could have. Thanks!

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Advanced Member
2 hours ago, (Omega) said:

One thing of which to be aware: most Calvinists (or those who follow reformed doctrine) are against the idea of OSAS for simply because: they do not believe in an individual's free will acceptance of Christ as Savior.  They believe that the elect must persevere in order to prove out that they are, indeed, part of the elect. And, should they "unpersevere" (stray away from the paths of righteousness), that is proof of never having been part of the elect to begin with. 

Not so, they believe that God will preserve them. I would say it is the same as OSAS and Eternal security for those who truly believe.  

Trouble is, some who hold to OSAS think that if someone has answered an altar call, or made a profession, believe that they are saved without any evidence.of the new birth.  The reformed that I know will always seek evidence and not only a profession before they accept a candidate for baptism.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
12 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Not so, they believe that God will preserve them. I would say it is the same as OSAS and Eternal security for those who truly believe.  

Trouble is, some who hold to OSAS think that if someone has answered an altar call, or made a profession, believe that they are saved without any evidence.of the new birth.  The reformed that I know will always seek evidence and not only a profession before they accept a candidate for baptism.

You quoted the wrong person. Those are not my words, they're HappyChristian's. If you have a problem with what she said, then take it up with her.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Btw, I have a problem with altar calls too. There is a church not too far from where I live called "The Abyssinian Church" that does altar calls. The Pastor would ask his congregation the question, "who would like to be saved today?". And several people would raise their hands and the Pastor would ask them to REPEAT what he says, then says, "No nobody can tell you to go to hell." This is the incorrect way to go about being saved. Paul says not only to confess with our mouths, but "BELIEVE IN OUR HEARTS" that God has raised Jesus from the dead, then we will be saved. The Pastor has NO IDEA if those who professed with their mouths actually BELIEVED in their hearts, only the one professing to do so does. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Lady Administrators
18 hours ago, Invicta said:

Not so, they believe that God will preserve them. I would say it is the same as OSAS and Eternal security for those who truly believe.  

Trouble is, some who hold to OSAS think that if someone has answered an altar call, or made a profession, believe that they are saved without any evidence.of the new birth.  The reformed that I know will always seek evidence and not only a profession before they accept a candidate for baptism.

It is so. "Perseverance of the saints" is a mainstay of the reformed belief. It isn't the same, because we don't persevere. Perseverance and preservation are vastly different in both definition and result, even though more modern definitions add preservation along with perseverance.  

I know of a number of churches that are not reformed that will also wait for evidence before accepting a candidate for baptism. That is something that has to be decided by the pastor of each church. Folks who lead people to a saving knowledge of the Lord need to make sure the new Christians are properly discipled so that they understand what the Bible teaches about the Christian life. 

Altar calls also vary from pastor to pastor. I've been in churches where they are a hot mess of emotionalism, and I've been in churches where they are simply invitations to come pray and allow the Holy Spirit to work.  I would agree that far too many people believe they are saved and are not...this is the problem of easy believism (but we have to be careful not to go from that side of the pendulum to the Lordship salvation side of the pendulum).

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members
On December 16, 2017 at 12:06 PM, HappyChristian said:

One thing of which to be aware: most Calvinists (or those who follow reformed doctrine) are against the idea of OSAS for simply because: they do not believe in an individual's free will acceptance of Christ as Savior.  They believe that the elect must persevere in order to prove out that they are, indeed, part of the elect. And, should they "unpersevere" (stray away from the paths of righteousness), that is proof of never having been part of the elect to begin with. 

We are indeed always saved, once we are truly saved. However, there is an easy believism that has permeated Christianity that causes problems. One of those problems is false profession. Another is false security. Salvation is simple. It truly is. But it does involve repentance, which far too many people have popularized now as a "work" and therefore cannot be part of salvation. 

The fine line is that many of those who pray a prayer are trusting in that prayer, rather than the person of Christ. Assurance comes from the fact that they prayed. And as they continue in life, regardless of what they become involved in, they look back to that prayer and assure themselves (or their family assures themselves) that "once saved, always saved."

Two examples that my husband and I just discussed come to mind. We know two young men who we watched grow up...both of them made professions as children. And, boy, did they know scripture! And yet...they are both homosexual and proud of it. They are both "married" and successful. No hint of any conviction, no "doubts" that they are indeed saved, because "once saved, always saved."

Now, I know folks might say that we cannot judge the heart, so maybe they are. I'm sorry, but that's not what the Bible teaches. The Bible does NOT teach that anyone will LOSE their salvation. But it DOES teach that there are false professors.

"Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit."

A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit - we have an apple tree that has been dying for a while. The fruit has not been very good at all.

This is true of people as well. We are all corrupt until we are truly saved. If we make a profession, but our fruit is corrupt, we are not saved. That does NOT mean a saved person will never sin. It DOES mean that a saved person will be convicted because he or she is indwelt by Almighty God, and God is, upon salvation, working to form us to the image of His Son. God is not going to allow His child to live in continual, habitual abomination. 

Now, let me again say that once we are saved, we are always saved. But the term has become a mantra for those who want to convince themselves that they can willfully and continually sin and be saved - and no conviction of sin, no consequence of that continual, willful sin. 

There is a balance - once we are saved, we are saved. We are still in our physical bodies, and so there will be sin. But a truly born-again believer will be convicted - and if the person doesn't respond to the conviction, spiritual spanking will follow somehow (else, the Bible says, we are not His children).  If none of the happens, the person was never truly saved. Salvation was not lost, it was never had to begin with. I am not averse to using the phrase "once saved, always saved," because once a person is saved, it is for always. Eternal security.

Phew - just some really quick thoughts this morning. I hope it makes sense...and if there is anyone out there who can explain it better, please jump in.

Thank you SO much, HappyChristian!

Yes, that makes complete sense & I totally agree with everything you said and it is all biblically sound.

Sounds like the homos just did the '123 repeat after me' nonsense. Their verbal profession meant absolutely nothing if they first did not believe on Christ in their heart, which it doesn't sound like it. Whoever gave them the Gospel didn't do a thorough job, and should have questioned & made sure that they really UNDERSTOOD AND BELIEVED the Gospel instead of allowing them to think that just saying the prayer could save them.  

At any rate, I was starting to worry because I am saved but I still struggle with an old habit: smoking cigarettes. (I know, it is a disgusting, expensive & unhealthy habit, and I am ashamed & even embarrassed to reveal that I will be 40 in a few years & still struggle with it )

I started (stupidly) as a teenager, not thinking I'd get hooked since I was young, and so of course I thought I knew everything :laugh:

But then, After getting saved and wanting to get sin out of my life, that seemed to really be the one I kept going back to. I hate it & it is frustrating, because I know it's wrong & I will manage to quit for a year or two  & then temptation strikes out of nowhere & I'll slip up, buy a pack and smoke one, feel guilty, throw the rest away and start all over again. It's a vicious cycle & sometimes it takes every ounce of willpower just to get through an hour without giving in. 

I  heard it is supposed to get easier with time, and while there is some truth in that, I have still battled it for over a decade. I pray one day that I abstain completely & never smoke again.

So, since that technically makes me a "habitual" sinner, I got confused, because my spirit testifies that I am genuinely saved.

Thank you again for your kindness, patience & clarification. :)

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Lady Administrators

(Let me add that many folks teach that OSAS is a calvinist doctrine, because of their belief in perseverance - which is tied into their idea of salvation...I said above that most are against it, not because they don't teach it, but because they must persevere or they aren't part of the elect...that isn't biblical, and actually puts the onus on the believer)

I'm glad it helped you, BabeinChrist. Sadly, sin can grab hold of us and get a stranglehold. Stay in God's Word, spend time in prayer, and continue to ask God to deliver you from this. He will. Sometimes something like this takes a  long time, sometimes it's instantaneous. My own parents smoked and knew it was wrong. They quit, and then very foolishly (my mom's word, not mine) started again (they were out of church at the time). They got things right with God, got back into church...but it was years before they were able to quit. 

Addictions are very real, and smoking is no less of one than any other.  I'll be praying for you.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 years later...
  • Members

Salvation can be lost but it is not trivial.  We have it within ourselves to either reject where God leads or follow where He leads; to fall away or endure; to disobey or to obey; to love God and fellow man or to tolerate God and fellow man.  The warnings in scripture are many and clear.  When one espouses this doctrine, there is always a misunderstanding of God's sovereignty, our receiving of God's promises, or the nature of God.  Even the underlying Greek in scripture refutes the idea.  Friends in Christ, seek to remain faithful and follow where the Holy Spirit leads for He will not lead you wrong whereas man often does.  God Bless......

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
3 hours ago, Gregg said:

Salvation can be lost but it is not trivial.  We have it within ourselves to either reject where God leads or follow where He leads; to fall away or endure; to disobey or to obey; to love God and fellow man or to tolerate God and fellow man.  The warnings in scripture are many and clear.  When one espouses this doctrine, there is always a misunderstanding of God's sovereignty, our receiving of God's promises, or the nature of God.  Even the underlying Greek in scripture refutes the idea.  Friends in Christ, seek to remain faithful and follow where the Holy Spirit leads for He will not lead you wrong whereas man often does.  God Bless......

Answer a few questions for me please: 

1. What names does God use for "Salvation life"?  (I will give you these ones) There are two main ones: Everlasting life, and Eternal life.

2. If something is everlasting, what does that mean exactly?

3. If something is eternal, what does that means exactly?

4. If something can end, was it EVER everlasting?

5. If something can end, was it EVER eternal?

 

With all the verse arguments that go on, sometimes people forget the simple facts.

God, not men, calls Salvation life both everlasting and eternal. These names can only properly be used to refer to something that was, is, and always be eternal or everlasting.

If God says something is eternal, and then it ends - for any reason whatsoever - then that makes God a liar.

If God says something is everlasting, and then it ends - for any reason whatsoever - then that makes God a liar.

 

Now remember, these are not my names for salvation life, but God's names.

So one last question: Why would God use terms that indicate that salvation life is both eternal and everlasting, if that salvation life can be lost in way for any reason? He would be lying in His use of those terms.

I know I haven't quoted any verses "Proving" you can't lose your salvation, but you all the verses I am talking about:

 

Mat 25:46
(46)  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mar 10:30
(30)  But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.
 

Joh 3:15
(15)  That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16
(16)  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:36
(36)  He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Joh 4:36
(36)  And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

Joh 5:24
(24)  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 5:39
(39)  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Joh 6:27
(27)  Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

I could of course go on, but you get the idea.

And of course I know this is a really simplistic argument, but if it is so simple, then it should be a breeze to answer - but no one has ever explained it away to me.

Eternal and everlasting are God's names for salvation life, and if salvation can be lost, then it is not everlasting nor eternal and NEVER WAS.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
5 hours ago, Gregg said:

Salvation can be lost

If you could "lose" or CHOSE TO LEAVE eternal Salvation then an all knowing God would have never given it to you in the first place.

Ephesians 1:4 according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Hebrews 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Members

There are two posts here; let me try to respond to both.  Eternal salvation has not occurred.  In fact there are many scriptures that reference that salvation is a process leading to a future event - our salvation (let me know if you want those scriptures).  We tend to speak of it in the past tense under the mistaken assumption that once we have something we never lose it, hence we treat eternal salvation as something we have how and cannot be lost.  Once we are with Christ, what we have will be eternal.  However we have a life to live before God after coming to Christ and the list of warnings throughout the NT, as well as the descriptions of salvation being in the future, make clear that our choice here have consequences.  

On the second post; that is not a scriptural point.  It is an inference made - that is God would never give eternal life if they could lose it.  God chose the Israelites as His people yet not all will be saved.  God also told the Israelites they would all enter into the promised land but they all did not.  God told Hezekiah to put his affairs in order for he would die but he was given 15 more years.  God told Jonah that Ninevah would be destroyed in 40 days but was not.  God told Eli that he and His family would minister before Him forever, but when they refused to honor God, they no longer were able to minister.  In short, if you read through the OT, we see God react to man over and over and over even though He has stated specific things.  Just for the record, this DOES NOT make God untruthful in any way.  It means that God has intentions to do exactly what He said He would but mans actions have consequences after God has spoken.  When those chosen do not act faithfully they are often destroyed, yet God finds someone else through which to fulfill His promises.   This is the essence of the interaction between man and God  (i seem to remember that Calvin understood this).  Finally, just because Christ knows who are his, the counter argument is not true; those who think they are his are not necessarily His for "why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do what i say?".  In scripture Christ has told people that "knew" Christ that "he never knew them" and "i know you not".  There are two ways to read scripture: in the flesh and in the spirit and it is relatively easy to determine which is which.  If we are reading scripture so that we use it to justify ourselves and our actions, we are reading in the flesh.  If we are reading scripture to seek to truly do God's will, then we are reading in the Spirit.   The flesh and the spirit are at odds.  

While you quote scripture (++), those passages must be examined for what they are really teaching; spend a little more time with these brother.  Just as a simple example, what the foreknowledge of God based on?  What is the idea of pluck (harpazo - carried off by force) really mean?  Perhaps you should consider Dan Barker, Marty Sampson, Joshua Harris, (and these are just a few). Finally, you did not state any of the balancing scriptures (let me know if you want those scriptures).  

God does not force us to remain faithful, nor will He welcome into His kingdom those who are committed to rebelling against Him.  God does help us to remain faithful; praise God for that.   He does this through the Spirit and through discipline, but stiff necked people do not always respond to discipline.  That is shown in the OT; hence the warnings in the NT.   However the idea that no matter what we do once we come to God, has no eternal impact is creating more lukewarm and rebellious people than one might believe.  It is THE reason that Christ will tell people that either a) "He never knew them" or b) "I know you not".  Yet these people believe they are saved.

Those who pay selective inattention to warnings of the most High reject what God warns about (credit to Dale Moody). 

I leave you with this teaching to those Christians who were not living faithfully (note it is the man that soweth below and the man who will reap).

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.  

For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting"

We can absolutely trust God if we committed to being are faithful even if we occasionally fall.  It is those who want to live their lives the way they want, often in rebellion to God yet still expect to claim His promises which are at risk.    All God's best......

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Administrators
2 hours ago, Gregg said:

There are two posts here; let me try to respond to both.  Eternal salvation has not occurred.  In fact there are many scriptures that reference that salvation is a process leading to a future event - our salvation (let me know if you want those scriptures).  We tend to speak of it in the past tense under the mistaken assumption that once we have something we never lose it, hence we treat eternal salvation as something we have how and cannot be lost.  Once we are with Christ, what we have will be eternal.  However we have a life to live before God after coming to Christ and the list of warnings throughout the NT, as well as the descriptions of salvation being in the future, make clear that our choice here have consequences. 

1 John 5:13 (KJV) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Written in the present tense, not a future event.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

So in other words you, like everyone else I have asked, cannot answer the simple matter of the names God chose to use for salvation life, but choose instead to sidestep, redefine, and ignore the plain and basic truth.

Eternal life cannot be eternal if it ends for any reason.

Everlasting life isn't and NEVER WAS everlasting if ends for any reason.

And OF COURSE we want Scriptures for your points. We are not interested in Calvin's lies and false doctrines.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Gregg, the examples that you've given had to do with earthly/physical happenings. Salvation is spiritual.

Man can do nothing of his own merit or works to earn salvation, nor can his merits or works cause him to remain saved or cause the loss of salvation. His merits and works can make his relationship with God stronger, or his merits and works can break his fellowship with God...but not his relationship with God.

The word "saved" is an interesting word...it is a past-tense verb that defines past, present, and future happenings...

I was "saved" many years ago.

I am "saved" today.

I will be "saved" in the future.

No man can pluck us from his hand...and "no man" includes our self.

Christ said that if any man will come to him, he will not cast them out.

To say that we can lose salvation is to say that Christ is a sinner. Lying is a sin.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...