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Roselove

Saved in 3 tenses?

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52 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Then there are different meanings of "saved" such as "saved in childbearing".

Brother Wayne,

I agree with your intended point.  However, to be more precise - The meaning of the word "saved" is not really different, since it ever means "to be delivered from something;" but the intended application can be quite different from context to context.  Certainly worthy of consideration in any given Biblical context.

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3 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

Yes, of course, that's pretty much what I meant.

So, when we read the word "saved" in the Bible, it does always mean "delivered from something" but we are not to just assume that deliverance is always "salvation from eternal damnation".

Absolutely, AMEN!!!! Big mistakes in contextual understanding and Biblical doctrine are made when we just make that assumption.

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On 5/16/2018 at 9:32 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Absolutely, AMEN!!!! Big mistakes in contextual understanding and Biblical doctrine are made when we just make that assumption.

Sometimes it can be difficult to determine what the context of the word is. Especially since, when we talk about being saved in the Christian community, we mean from hell, and being brought into God’s family. I feel like I’ve been learning a lot, though. 

I was having a thought last night as well, about how being born of God, of incorruptible seed and becoming His children, how could we ever be lost? I know many who say we can lose salvation, say that we can grieve the Holy Spirit until He leaves or until we get too hardened to listen, but I can’t think of a verse in the NT that says He will ever not be apart of us for any reason, and I don’t believe He says that He will leave us, either. Also, even if we don’t listen to God (even though we should and it’s very wrong if we choose not to), I don’t see how that means we won’t be His children, anymore. We are still born of God and Christ is in us and He can’t deny Himself, the Bible says that. Just thought I’d share that, it was a moment of something simple, clicking in my head. I may still struggle, but it got me thinking some more.

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26 minutes ago, Roselove said:

When you get a chance, I still would like help with my last questions, though. I still don’t quite understand them yet.

Indeed, Sister Rose, I have intended to respond; but I am being pulled in too many different directions at once at the moment.

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On 5/2/2018 at 3:01 PM, Roselove said:

Thank you, I am a bit confused though because I think it was in one of the letters from John, he said they left us because they weren’t of us, I know that was also about false teachers, but I tended to think that it also meant that Christians wouldn’t depart, either. So, I guess my question is, how could they depart if they were truly saved? And if their conscience is seared, how could they ever come back?  

Indeed, 1 John 2:18-23 declares, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.  Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."  First, there is no indication herein that these individuals departed from the FAITH.  Rather, there is only an indication that they departed from the CONGREGATION of believers.  Second, this passage reveals that they departed from the congregation of believers specifically because they had never been a true part of that congregation through faith.  These "departers" were antichrists, who denied that "Jesus is the Christ."  As such, they were NEVER believers in Christ, and thereby NEVER had a saving relationship with the Son or the Father.  In fact, they were NEVER in the faith itself at all.  Being in the congregation of believers has to do with one's relationship to the believers, and believers CAN be fooled for a time.  However, being in the faith has to do with one's relation to God the Son and God the Father, and they can NEVER be fooled.  These antichrists were indeed in the congregation of believers, but they were NEVER in the faith.  They did indeed depart from the congregation of believers; but they NEVER departed from the faith because they were NEVER in the faith to begin with.

Ok, I had a few moments for a quick post.  I intend to deal with the question concerning believers departing from the faith and the question concerning a seared conscience in a future posting.

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I was reading in the daily chapter on my Bible app today, I got a little confused on something. Romans 11:20-22, I was reading it in the context and looked at some commentaries as well, I do agree that it’s talking about Jews and gentiles as a whole, but in verse 20 it says that some are standing by faith (which I assume means they’re saved), but in verse 22 he says that they’re able to be cut off. In light of the fact that this is in parallel with Israel’s unbelief (which I assume means that the ones not believing are not saved), I’m kind of confused about how we can be standing in faith, but be cut off like the other unbelievers? 

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On 6/16/2018 at 7:26 AM, Roselove said:

I was reading in the daily chapter on my Bible app today, I got a little confused on something. Romans 11:20-22, I was reading it in the context and looked at some commentaries as well, I do agree that it’s talking about Jews and gentiles as a whole, but in verse 20 it says that some are standing by faith (which I assume means they’re saved), but in verse 22 he says that they’re able to be cut off. In light of the fact that this is in parallel with Israel’s unbelief (which I assume means that the ones not believing are not saved), I’m kind of confused about how we can be standing in faith, but be cut off like the other unbelievers? 

First, let us consider the context of the whole chapter wherein Romans 11:20-22 is found. 

1.  The Concern

The primary them of Romans 11 concerns the relationship of the Israelites as a people with the Lord their God.  This is revealed through the opening question of Romans 11:1, “I say then, Hath God cast away his people?”  This question engages two progressive thoughts.  In the first place, we encounter the recognition that the Israelites were indeed the chosen people of God throughout the time of the Old Testament.  In the second place, we encounter the concern whether God has now cast aside the Israelites completely and permanently as His chose people.  Yet the emphatic answer to this concern rings back, “God forbid!”

2.  The Evidences

The apostle Paul provides two evidences for his emphatic answer that God has definitely not cast aside the Israelites completely and permanently as His chose people.  In the closing portion of Romans 11:1, he presents his own salvation as the first evidence.  Then in Romans 11:2-6 he presents the reality of a remnant, “a remnant according to the election of grace,” as the second evidence. 

3.  The Problem

In Romans 11:7-10 the apostle reveals that the Lord God has indeed judged the Israelites as a people with spiritual blindness.  This spiritual blindness does not prevent all of them from coming unto a knowledge of the truth, for there is indeed “a remnant according to the election of grace” who come unto faith in Christ for eternal salvation.  Yet this spiritual blindness means that the majority of the Israelites will not understand the way of God’s grace for eternal salvation through Christ; but “being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness [by the works of the law],” they will not “submit themselves unto the righteousness of God” through faith alone in Christ. (See Romans 10:2-4)

4.  The Result

In Romans 11:11 the apostle reveals that the spiritual fall of the Israelites has opened the door of God’s gracious salvation unto the Gentiles as a people group.  Yet this spiritual fall and spiritual blindness of the Israelites is not a final fall and permanent casting away.  Indeed, God’s Word declares, “God forbid!”  Rather, this spiritual fall of the Israelites and opened door of grace for the Gentiles is intended to provoke the Israelites unto spiritual jealousy and repentance.

5.  The Relationship

In Romans 11:12-15 the apostle proposes the truth that if the spiritual fall and diminishing of the Israelites be unto the spiritual reconciliation and riches of the world and of the Gentiles, then how much greater riches would the spiritual restoration and fullness of the Israelites be for the sake of the Gentile world.

6.  The Warning

Then in Romans 11:16-24 the apostle presents the parable of the good olive tree and the wild olive tree.  Even so, the primary intention for this parable is to warn us Gentiles that we should not boast ourselves against the spiritually fallen Israelites.  It is to warn us that we should not be wise in our own conceits and should not be sinfully high-minded against them.  Rather, it is to warn us that we should simply and continually walk in the fear of the Lord our God and Savior.

7.  The Promise

Having relayed his warning through illustration in Romans 11:16-24, the apostle proclaims in Romans 11:25-27 God’s promise of spiritual restoration for the Israelites.  As per the revelation of other Scriptural prophecy, we understand that this restoration shall occur at the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

8.  The Conclusion

In Romans 11:28-32 draws the entire discussion to its conclusion – that the gospel of God’s merciful salvation is unto all, both Israelite and Gentile, through faith.

9.  The Praise

Finally, in Romans 11:33-36 the apostle expresses the heights of praise for the wisdom and glory of the Lord our God in creating such a plan of merciful salvation through grace unto all who believe.

 

Second, let us consider the meaning of the parable concerning the two olive trees.

1.  Before we begin to consider the details of the parable itself, it is important for us to recognize that we should not get our doctrinal understanding primarily from a parable.  Certainly, Biblical parables do illustrate doctrinal principles.  Yet parables remain illustrations for these principles, but not declarations of the principles themselves. 

2.  As we consider the details of this parable, it is important for us to recognize the primary point and principle of the parable.  Every Biblical parable, while including various details of truth, contains a primary principle of truth.  Even so, the primary principle of truth for the parable of the two olive trees in Romans 11:16-24 is a warning unto us Gentiles not to be high-minded or boastful against the spiritually fallen Israelites, but ever to walk in the fear of the Lord our God and Savior.

3.  Considering the details of this parable, we find that some of these details are more easily discernible than others.  The illustration of the parable presents us with a picture of two olive trees, a good (groomed) olive tree and a wild olive tree.  Other details in the illustration of the parable include the root of the good (groomed) olive tree, the branches of the good (groomed) olive tree, and the branches of the wild olive tree.  Specifically, the illustration of the parable speaks about some of the natural branches from the good olive tree being cut off, some of the branches from the wild olive tree being grafted into the good olive tree, and the possibility for some of the natural branches that were cut off being grafted back into the good olive tree.  So then, what do these details represent?  It seems clear that the natural branches of the good olive tree represent the Israelites as a people, and that the branches of the wild olive tree represent the Gentiles as a people.  Furthermore, It seems clear that those natural branches of the good olive tree which are cut off represent Israelites who do not receive God’s righteousness (justification and salvation) through faith in Christ, and that those wild branches which are grafted into the good olive tree represent Gentiles who do receive God’s righteousness through faith in Christ.  Finally, it seems clear that the natural branches of the good olive which were cut off, but might be grafted in again, represent Israelites who might yet receive God’s righteousness through faith in Christ. 

Yet there is one detail in the parable that is more difficult to discern.  What does the root (and trunk) of the good olive tree represent?  In the immediate context itself, we do not find a specific definition for this representation.  Yet understanding this representation is significant for your question, because it is out of this root (and trunk) that the natural branches grow, because it from this root (and trunk) that the natural branches are cut off, because it is into this root (and trunk) that the wild branches might be grafted, because it is from this root (and trunk) that the grafted branches might possibly be cut off, and because it is into this root (and trunk) that the natural branches which have been cut off might be grafted again.  However, the passage does provide us with some information concerning this root (and trunk) of the good olive tree.  It is holy in character. (See Romans 11:16)  It bears the branches; the branches do not bear it. (See Romans 11:18)  It provides “fatness” to the branches. (See Romans 11:17)  It is naturally the root of the Israelites as a people, naturally possessed by them as such. (See Romans 11:24)  It is not naturally the root of the Gentiles as a people, but only graciously possessed by them as such. (See Romans 11:22, 24)  Some might define this root as eternal salvation and/or eternal life.  Yet to me these things appear to be “fatness” blessings, rather than the foundational root itself.  In addition, although these blessings were certainly available to every Israelite throughout the time of the Old Testament, it does not appear to me that they were naturally the possession of all Israelites as a people.  Some might define this root as the Lord Jesus Christ.  Certainly, I would acknowledge that Christ is the foundational root (see John 15:1-6) for all believers.  Yet I still question whether Christ Himself was naturally the root possession of all Israelites as a people.  For my own case, I believe it best to view this root as representing something that was a root possession of all Israelites as a people throughout the time of the Old Testament.  Remaining within the context of the epistle to the Romans itself, and even within the context of Romans 9-11, I find an answer in Romans 9:4, wherein we learn that unto the Israelites “pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises.  From this I learn that the covenants of promise (see also Ephesians 2:12) are a foundational root for the Israelites as the people of God and that those covenants of promise are naturally a root possession of all Israelites throughout the time of the Old Testament.  Certainly, in this time of New Testament, we Gentiles may take some part in these covenants of promise.  However, we take part therein, not by natural possession as do the Israelites, but by gracious possession.  In addition, because of their unbelief and rejection toward the Lord Jesus Christ, the majority of Israelites have indeed been cut off for a time from these covenants of promise, and shall continue to be “until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.” (See Romans 11:25)

So then, how does this relate unto your question? 

1.  The covenants of promise are the foundational root for the Israelites as a people, which is their root possession naturally.

2.  Because of their unbelief in and rejection of Christ, the Israelites as a people have spiritually fallen and been cut off from their own covenants of promise.

3.  Through faith in Christ, we Gentiles may be grafted into the Israelites’ covenants of promise, such that we may somewhat experience the “fatness” of those covenants.

4.  Through rebellion against God, we Gentiles may also be cut off from some of the “fatness” and privileges of the covenants of promise into which we have been grafted.

5.  Through faith in Christ, individual Israelites may be grafted back into the covenants of promise from which they have been cut off.

6.  At the Second Coming of Christ, the Israelites as a people will be restored unto the fullness and “fatness” of their covenants of promise.

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Wow, what a wonderful exposition of this passage bro. Scott. I had never thought of this subject in quite the splendid detail you outlined it as.

I really appreciated  the sound study principle you outlined here: 2.  As we consider the details of this parable, it is important for us to recognize the primary point and principle of the parable.  Every Biblical parable, while including various details of truth, contains a primary principle of truth.

This principle is one that I learned early in my Christian life and has served me well in both study and teaching on all of the Parables. If we always look for the primary truth being taught in a Parable and understand that once we have found it, all other secondary truths only serve to "flesh out the story) (Parable). we will be a long way down the road to a proper understanding of a Parable.

Thank you for this response this morning bro. Scott, i served me well as an unexpected blessing since I cannot attend my church this morning. I had a bad fall a couple of days ago and am only recovering slowly. I'm just not well enough to make the hour and a half dive to church this morning, so I consider your response  a welcome substitute for what I may miss in my own services.

So thank you twice Bro. Scott. May your services be a blessing to your hearers this morning.

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I have often thought how wonderful it would be if we could convince people of the security we have in Christ once and for all.; to have them become secure in the knowledge that they cannot ever, under any circumstance , lose their salvation. I know, this is an age old problem. But it is one that burdens my heart for others who may, by dwelling on possibly obscure passages that are not even speaking of losing our salvation only serve to confuse them more.

Of course we are always able to show the fallacy of one being able to lose their salvation by sound Scripture application. But how wonderful it would be if that person could hold onto their sound conviction of the security of the believer through all the storms of fear, doubt, false teachers and misunderstanding.

Perhaps it may serve this kind of Christian well if they could just make the Scriptures that show the impossibility of one losing their salvation foremost in their thought processes, they would not be easily swayed. I am thinking that if they could permanently embed, not only the idea, but also certain Scriptures that affirm our security, so that when they even start to become confused or even the slightest doubt creeps in, it is then that the positive Scriptures come front and center.

I am thinking of Scriptures such as these:

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of      Jesus Christ:

Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish; neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

In the light of these Scriptures there are no other verses in the whole Bible that could contradict them, none that could cause anyone to cast aside our security, if they could just make them their own once and for all.

Edited by Jim_Alaska
added text

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Thank you both for your comments! Pastor Markle, that makes sense I think. It seems like maybe it’s another instance where someone can misinterperate a fellowship verse with salvation verse, perhaps? The outline you gave seems to fit this understanding. It’s frustrating how difficult it can be, differentiating the two scenarios, sometimes.

Jim, thank you for your comments as well! What you said is also reminding me of the remedy for my issues, learning context and interpretation in the Bible. 

It’s unbelievably difficult for me sometimes, to just grasp these kinds of things, it makes me want to kick my brain!! The life in the mind of an OCD sufferer, is very annoying to say the least. Feels like I’m constantly arguing with another person. But hopefully, this will resolve sooner than later! I believe I’m going in the right direction with the insightful help that I’m getting on here and from a couple of other trusted Christians, as well! 

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1 minute ago, Roselove said:

Thank you both for your comments! Pastor Markle, that makes sense I think. It seems like maybe it’s another instance where someone can misinterperate a fellowship verse with salvation verse, perhaps? The outline you gave seems to fit this understanding. It’s frustrating how difficult it can be, differentiating the two scenarios, sometimes.

Jim, thank you for your comments as well! What you said is also reminding me of the remedy for my issues, learning context and interpretation in the Bible. 

It’s unbelievably difficult for me sometimes, to just grasp these kinds of things, it makes me want to kick my brain!! The life in the mind of an OCD sufferer, is very annoying to say the least. Feels like I’m constantly arguing with another person. But hopefully, this will resolve sooner than later! I believe I’m going in the right direction with the insightful help that I’m getting on here and from a couple of other trusted Christians, as well! 

Sister Rose,

I desire that my following comment will be taken somewhat seriously, but with a little bit of humor as well; yet I most definitely do not wish to cause any offense.

Now the comment - While I am not clinically diagnosed with OCD, I am an individual who Obsessively Cares about Details, especially in Bible study.  Such is the reason for my lengthy, detailed, thorough, extensive answers to questions.  I simply pray that it is all good to the use of edifying and that it ministers God's grace unto others.

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48 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

I desire that my following comment will be taken somewhat seriously, but with a little bit of humor as well; yet I most definitely do not wish to cause any offense.

Now the comment - While I am not clinically diagnosed with OCD, I am an individual who Obsessively Cares about Details, especially in Bible study.  Such is the reason for my lengthy, detailed, thorough, extensive answers to questions.  I simply pray that it is all good to the use of edifying and that it ministers God's grace unto others.

I know, that's your excuse and your a stickin to it. But no matter what the reason, I am thankful for it.

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51 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

I desire that my following comment will be taken somewhat seriously, but with a little bit of humor as well; yet I most definitely do not wish to cause any offense.

Now the comment - While I am not clinically diagnosed with OCD, I am an individual who Obsessively Cares about Details, especially in Bible study.  Such is the reason for my lengthy, detailed, thorough, extensive answers to questions.  I simply pray that it is all good to the use of edifying and that it ministers God's grace unto others.

Not offended, at all! I think your attention to detail is very helpful! It has helped me piece together things that I don’t know if I could have come to, on my own. I certainly appreciate the time you spend on your studies, they have taught me a lot, so far! 

It’d be nice if my obsessive mind processed things, like yours. You seem to handle it in a way healthier way, than myself. 

Mental illness runs in my family pretty bad. I think I mention this stuff, because my heart is crying for help. I feel so alone at times, the only other person that I really knew personally that struggled like me, was my dad.

Edited by Roselove

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16 hours ago, Roselove said:

Thank you both for your comments! Pastor Markle, that makes sense I think. It seems like maybe it’s another instance where someone can misinterperate a fellowship verse with salvation verse, perhaps?

Sister Rose,

In answer to your question above, Yes and No.

If the root of the good olive tree does indeed represent the covenants of promise, then inclusion therein is about opportunity and privilege.  Let us consider a few different scenarios in relation to this matter.

First, let us consider those Israelites who were the first generation in the Lord’s redemption from the bondage of Egypt.  Indeed, they all experienced that divine redemption through their faith in the blood of the Passover lamb, as they all sprinkled its blood upon the door post and lintel.  There is no indication that the death angel entered into any Israelite home that night.  Even so, in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 God’s Word gives the report concerning that very generation of Israelites, “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”  They were all believers in God’s redemption through the blood of the lamb.  They were all under the cloud of God’s glorious presence.  They were all baptized unto Moses through the crossing of the Red Sea.  They all partook of the same spiritual meat and drink, such that they all partook of Christ Himself.  As such, the Lord God entered into the covenants of promise with all of them at Mount Sinai; and those covenants of promise included the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  However, because of their unbelief and disobedience at Kadesh, they were not permitted to enter into the Promised Land and to experience its “fatness.”  Rather, they were required to wander in the wilderness until that generation passed away.  Thus in 1 Corinthians 10:5-6 God’s Word gives further report, “But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.”  Yet even throughout their wandering in the wilderness, they still had the Lord’s presence with them, the Lord’s provision for them, and the Lord’s protection over them.  Did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Did they enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, they did not, because of their unbelief and disobedience. (See Hebrews 3:7-11)  Yet did they experience some aspects of those promises?  Yes, they did, even throughout their wanderings in the wilderness.

However, the scribes and Pharisees in the time of the Lord Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry present a different case.  Although they were very religious, having “a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.” (See Romans 10:2)  “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,” through their religious works of the law, did not “submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (See Romans 10:3)  Although they were very religious, they were never believers.  Thus our Lord Jesus Christ pronounced that they were not spiritually the children of God, but that they were of their spiritual father, the devil. (See John 8:42-44)  So then, did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Yes, as Israelites they did indeed.  On the other hand, did they experience and enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, actually because of their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ, they spiritually fell and were cut off from their covenants of promise as a people (although not completely or permanently).  In fact, the Lord God has now judged them as a people with spiritual blindness “in part.” (See Romans 11:7-11, 25)  This is the “severity of God” toward the Israelites unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

Now, the spiritual fall and cutting off of the Israelites as a people has opened a spiritual door for us Gentiles as a people.  Whereas the spiritual opportunities of the Israelites as a people have become quite restricted through the spiritual blindness that the Lord God has place upon them, the spiritual opportunities of the Gentiles has become significantly more readily available.  Now, while the access of the Israelites as people unto their covenants of promise has been significantly restricted, the access of us Gentiles as a people unto those covenants of promise has been offered more freely.  Indeed, we of the wild olive tree have an open opportunity to be grafted into the Israelites’ natural root possession, their covenants of promise.  Yet our part in those covenants of promise does not include the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  Rather, our part in those covenants of promise includes the “fatness” of a promised spiritual LIFE, even as our Lord Jesus Christ revealed in John 10:10, “I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more ABUNDANTLY.”  Even so, this time of the New Testament church is that time wherein every believer receives the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit from the very moment of faith in Christ for salvation, such that the indwelling Holy Spirit might enable our abundant spiritual living as we submit unto His filling influence and direction.  This is the “goodness” of God toward the Gentiles unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

So then, what about us Gentiles who might not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?  By the record of the New Testament, it seems apparent that a great majority of the Gentiles as a people will indeed reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.  Even so, because of their unbelief and rejection they also may be cut off from access unto the covenants of promise.  In fact, after some point of rejection and rebellion against the gospel, the Lord God may cut off any given Gentile from an opportunity to come unto Christ through faith for salvation.  This is one aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles about which Romans 11:22 warns.

On the other hand, by the record of the New Testament, it also seems apparent that many of us Gentiles will indeed receive the Lord Jesus Christ through faith as eternal Savior.  As such, we receive full access unto the “fatness” of the promised life that is found within the new covenant of promise.  Yet our experience of that “fatness” is still determined by our faithfulness unto the Lord and by our submission unto the filling influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit throughout our daily walk.  If we do not walk in faithfulness and the filling of the Holy Spirit, we will not be cut off from our place in eternal life, but we will be cut off from the “fatness” of the abundant life.  This also is an aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles, although less severe, about which Romans 11:22 warns.

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37 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

In answer to your question above, Yes and No.

If the root of the good olive tree does indeed represent the covenants of promise, then inclusion therein is about opportunity and privilege.  Let us consider a few different scenarios in relation to this matter.

First, let us consider those Israelites who were the first generation in the Lord’s redemption from the bondage of Egypt.  Indeed, they all experienced that divine redemption through their faith in the blood of the Passover lamb, as they all sprinkled its blood upon the door post and lintel.  There is no indication that the death angel entered into any Israelite home that night.  Even so, in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 God’s Word gives the report concerning that very generation of Israelites, “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”  They were all believers in God’s redemption through the blood of the lamb.  They were all under the cloud of God’s glorious presence.  They were all baptized unto Moses through the crossing of the Red Sea.  They all partook of the same spiritual meat and drink, such that they all partook of Christ Himself.  As such, the Lord God entered into the covenants of promise with all of them at Mount Sinai; and those covenants of promise included the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  However, because of their unbelief and disobedience at Kadesh, they were not permitted to enter into the Promised Land and to experience its “fatness.”  Rather, they were required to wander in the wilderness until that generation passed away.  Thus in 1 Corinthians 10:5-6 God’s Word gives further report, “But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.”  Yet even throughout their wandering in the wilderness, they still had the Lord’s presence with them, the Lord’s provision for them, and the Lord’s protection over them.  Did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Did they enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, they did not, because of their unbelief and disobedience. (See Hebrews 3:7-11)  Yet did they experience some aspects of those promises?  Yes, they did, even throughout their wanderings in the wilderness.

However, the scribes and Pharisees in the time of the Lord Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry present a different case.  Although they were very religious, having “a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.” (See Romans 10:2)  “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,” through their religious works of the law, did not “submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (See Romans 10:3)  Although they were very religious, they were never believers.  Thus our Lord Jesus Christ pronounced that they were not spiritually the children of God, but that they were of their spiritual father, the devil. (See John 8:42-44)  So then, did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Yes, as Israelites they did indeed.  On the other hand, did they experience and enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, actually because of their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ, they spiritually fell and were cut off from their covenants of promise as a people (although not completely or permanently).  In fact, the Lord God has now judged them as a people with spiritual blindness “in part.” (See Romans 11:7-11, 25)  This is the “severity of God” toward the Israelites unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

Now, the spiritual fall and cutting off of the Israelites as a people has opened a spiritual door for us Gentiles as a people.  Whereas the spiritual opportunities of the Israelites as a people have become quite restricted through the spiritual blindness that the Lord God has place upon them, the spiritual opportunities of the Gentiles has become significantly more readily available.  Now, while the access of the Israelites as people unto their covenants of promise has been significantly restricted, the access of us Gentiles as a people unto those covenants of promise has been offered more freely.  Indeed, we of the wild olive tree have an open opportunity to be grafted into the Israelites’ natural root possession, their covenants of promise.  Yet our part in those covenants of promise does not include the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  Rather, our part in those covenants of promise includes the “fatness” of a promised spiritual LIFE, even as our Lord Jesus Christ revealed in John 10:10, “I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more ABUNDANTLY.”  Even so, this time of the New Testament church is that time wherein every believer receives the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit from the very moment of faith in Christ for salvation, such that the indwelling Holy Spirit might enable our abundant spiritual living as we submit unto His filling influence and direction.  This is the “goodness” of God toward the Gentiles unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

So then, what about us Gentiles who might not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?  By the record of the New Testament, it seems apparent that a great majority of the Gentiles as a people will indeed reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.  Even so, because of their unbelief and rejection they also may be cut off from access unto the covenants of promise.  In fact, after some point of rejection and rebellion against the gospel, the Lord God may cut off any given Gentile from an opportunity to come unto Christ through faith for salvation.  This is one aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles about which Romans 11:22 warns.

On the other hand, by the record of the New Testament, it also seems apparent that many of us Gentiles will indeed receive the Lord Jesus Christ through faith as eternal Savior.  As such, we receive full access unto the “fatness” of the promised life that is found within the new covenant of promise.  Yet our experience of that “fatness” is still determined by our faithfulness unto the Lord and by our submission unto the filling influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit throughout our daily walk.  If we do not walk in faithfulness and the filling of the Holy Spirit, we will not be cut off from our place in eternal life, but we will be cut off from the “fatness” of the abundant life.  This also is an aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles, although less severe, about which Romans 11:22 warns.

I’m going to have to think over this, it’s pretty complex. I’m trying to wrap my head around how this is talking about all of these things at once. 

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On 6/18/2018 at 1:08 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Sister Rose,

In answer to your question above, Yes and No.

If the root of the good olive tree does indeed represent the covenants of promise, then inclusion therein is about opportunity and privilege.  Let us consider a few different scenarios in relation to this matter.

First, let us consider those Israelites who were the first generation in the Lord’s redemption from the bondage of Egypt.  Indeed, they all experienced that divine redemption through their faith in the blood of the Passover lamb, as they all sprinkled its blood upon the door post and lintel.  There is no indication that the death angel entered into any Israelite home that night.  Even so, in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 God’s Word gives the report concerning that very generation of Israelites, “Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and did all eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”  They were all believers in God’s redemption through the blood of the lamb.  They were all under the cloud of God’s glorious presence.  They were all baptized unto Moses through the crossing of the Red Sea.  They all partook of the same spiritual meat and drink, such that they all partook of Christ Himself.  As such, the Lord God entered into the covenants of promise with all of them at Mount Sinai; and those covenants of promise included the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  However, because of their unbelief and disobedience at Kadesh, they were not permitted to enter into the Promised Land and to experience its “fatness.”  Rather, they were required to wander in the wilderness until that generation passed away.  Thus in 1 Corinthians 10:5-6 God’s Word gives further report, “But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.  Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.”  Yet even throughout their wandering in the wilderness, they still had the Lord’s presence with them, the Lord’s provision for them, and the Lord’s protection over them.  Did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Did they enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, they did not, because of their unbelief and disobedience. (See Hebrews 3:7-11)  Yet did they experience some aspects of those promises?  Yes, they did, even throughout their wanderings in the wilderness.

However, the scribes and Pharisees in the time of the Lord Jesus Christ’s earthly ministry present a different case.  Although they were very religious, having “a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.” (See Romans 10:2)  “For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness,” through their religious works of the law, did not “submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.” (See Romans 10:3)  Although they were very religious, they were never believers.  Thus our Lord Jesus Christ pronounced that they were not spiritually the children of God, but that they were of their spiritual father, the devil. (See John 8:42-44)  So then, did they have part in the covenants of promise as their root possession?  Yes, as Israelites they did indeed.  On the other hand, did they experience and enjoy the fullness of those promises?  No, actually because of their rejection of the Lord Jesus Christ, they spiritually fell and were cut off from their covenants of promise as a people (although not completely or permanently).  In fact, the Lord God has now judged them as a people with spiritual blindness “in part.” (See Romans 11:7-11, 25)  This is the “severity of God” toward the Israelites unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

Now, the spiritual fall and cutting off of the Israelites as a people has opened a spiritual door for us Gentiles as a people.  Whereas the spiritual opportunities of the Israelites as a people have become quite restricted through the spiritual blindness that the Lord God has place upon them, the spiritual opportunities of the Gentiles has become significantly more readily available.  Now, while the access of the Israelites as people unto their covenants of promise has been significantly restricted, the access of us Gentiles as a people unto those covenants of promise has been offered more freely.  Indeed, we of the wild olive tree have an open opportunity to be grafted into the Israelites’ natural root possession, their covenants of promise.  Yet our part in those covenants of promise does not include the “fatness” of the Promised Land.  Rather, our part in those covenants of promise includes the “fatness” of a promised spiritual LIFE, even as our Lord Jesus Christ revealed in John 10:10, “I am come that they might have LIFE, and that they might have it more ABUNDANTLY.”  Even so, this time of the New Testament church is that time wherein every believer receives the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit from the very moment of faith in Christ for salvation, such that the indwelling Holy Spirit might enable our abundant spiritual living as we submit unto His filling influence and direction.  This is the “goodness” of God toward the Gentiles unto which Romans 11:22 makes reference.

So then, what about us Gentiles who might not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ?  By the record of the New Testament, it seems apparent that a great majority of the Gentiles as a people will indeed reject the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.  Even so, because of their unbelief and rejection they also may be cut off from access unto the covenants of promise.  In fact, after some point of rejection and rebellion against the gospel, the Lord God may cut off any given Gentile from an opportunity to come unto Christ through faith for salvation.  This is one aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles about which Romans 11:22 warns.

On the other hand, by the record of the New Testament, it also seems apparent that many of us Gentiles will indeed receive the Lord Jesus Christ through faith as eternal Savior.  As such, we receive full access unto the “fatness” of the promised life that is found within the new covenant of promise.  Yet our experience of that “fatness” is still determined by our faithfulness unto the Lord and by our submission unto the filling influence of the indwelling Holy Spirit throughout our daily walk.  If we do not walk in faithfulness and the filling of the Holy Spirit, we will not be cut off from our place in eternal life, but we will be cut off from the “fatness” of the abundant life.  This also is an aspect of the “severity of God” toward the Gentiles, although less severe, about which Romans 11:22 warns.

I’m going to have to think over this, it’s pretty complex. I’m trying to wrap my head around how this is talking about all of these things at once. 

So, in verse 22 this specifically talking about the blessings at believers, depending on our walk with Him? 

I guess the biggest thing that confuses me is how this portion of Scripture is worded. I feel like if you read it in a simple way, it’d seem pretty straight-forward that if we don’t continue with God, we won’t be in His saving grace, anymore. It seems like a lot of things that appear to say that, if you take it as face value, it seems to go along with that belief. But, if one believes in security, then we have to look at it in a more complex way. 

I realize that there are many complex things in the Bible, being that it’s the Word of the Amazing God. I guess I just have a hard time not reading the Bible like I would any other book. Usually you wouldn’t have to do a lot of deep interperating to figure out what a chapter out of it was trying to say. This is my main struggle, I think.

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12 hours ago, Roselove said:

I’m going to have to think over this, it’s pretty complex. I’m trying to wrap my head around how this is talking about all of these things at once. 

So, in verse 22 this specifically talking about the blessings at believers, depending on our walk with Him? 

I guess the biggest thing that confuses me is how this portion of Scripture is worded. I feel like if you read it in a simple way, it’d seem pretty straight-forward that if we don’t continue with God, we won’t be in His saving grace, anymore. It seems like a lot of things that appear to say that, if you take it as face value, it seems to go along with that belief. But, if one believes in security, then we have to look at it in a more complex way. 

I realize that there are many complex things in the Bible, being that it’s the Word of the Amazing God. I guess I just have a hard time not reading the Bible like I would any other book. Usually you wouldn’t have to do a lot of deep interperating to figure out what a chapter out of it was trying to say. This is my main struggle, I think.

Sister Rose,

I certainly agree that we should read and study God's Word in a straight forward manner.  However, a straight forward reading of this parable about the two olive trees in Romans 11:16-24 leaves us with one very significant question unanswered.  That question is this -- What does the root/trunk of the good olive tree represent?  The passage seems to define what the branches of the good olive tree represent., and it seems to define what the branches of the wild olive tree represent.  On the other hand, while the passage references the root/trunk of the good olive tree four times (and by referencing the tree itself, infers the root/trunk a few additional times), the passage itself does NOT seem to define specifically what the root/trunk of the good olive might be.  Yet defining this representation is QUITE significant for your question.  Certainly, the parable and passage DOES communicate that there is something which might be possessed, but which then might also be lost.  Whatever this something is, it is represented by the root/trunk of the good olive tree.  It is the root/trunk of the good olive tree that the Israelites possess by nature.  It is the root/trunk of the good olive tree from which the Israelites were cut off because of their unbelief (thus a possession lost).  It is the root/trunk of the good olive tree into which we Gentiles might be grafted through faith.  It is the root/trunk of the good olive tree about which the warning is given that we Gentiles might also be cut off after being grafted in (thus the possibility of a possession lost).  It is the root/trunk of the good olive tree into which the Israelites who were cut off might be grafted back in.  Even so, by a straight forward reading of the parable and passage, the "something" that might be either possessed or lost IS the root/trunk of the good olive tree.  So then, we must ask -- What does the root/trunk of the good olive tree represent?  Yet as we read through the passage, it does NOT define this representation for us, which "complicates" our understanding of the passage and parable.  

Now above you said --

Quote

I realize that there are many complex things in the Bible, being that it’s the Word of the Amazing God. I guess I just have a hard time not reading the Bible like I would any other book. Usually you wouldn’t have to do a lot of deep interperating to figure out what a chapter out of it was trying to say. This is my main struggle, I think.

Most certainly, you should read God's Word in a literary manner, like you would any other book.  However, when a given passage itself does not provide the specific information to answer a specific question that we have, further and deeper interpreting is required.  What does the parable and passage reveal straightforwardly --

1.  The root/trunk of the tree (whatever it represents) is holy by character, and thus so are the branches that it contains. (Romans 11:16)
2.  Some of the natural branches (Israelites, as per the immediate context) of the good olive tree were broken off from the root/trunk of the good olive tree. (Romans 11:17)
3.  We Gentiles were grafted into the root/trunk of the good olive tree, and thus partake of the "root and fatness" of that tree along with the natural branches. (Romans 11:17)
4.  Because of this, we Gentiles should not boast against the natural branches (Israelites) because we do not bear the root/trunk of the tree, but it bears us. (Romans 11:18)
5.  The natural branches (Israelites) of the good olive tree were broken off because of unbelief. (Romans 11:20)
6.  We Gentiles were grafted into the root/trunk of the good olive tree through faith. (Romans 11:20)
7.  We Gentiles should take warning that if God did not spare the natural branches (Israelites) of the good olive tree, then he might also not spare us Gentiles. (Romans 11:21)
8.  This all reveals the "goodness and severity of God," on the Israelites His severity, on us Gentiles His goodness -- if we Gentiles continue in His goodness. (Romans 11:22)
9.  However, if we Gentiles do not continue in God's goodness toward us, then we also might be cut off from the root/trunk of the good olive tree. (Romans 11:22)
10.  The natural branches (Israelites) who were cut off from the root/trunk of the good olive tree might be grafted back in if they remain not in unbelief, but come to faith. (Romans 11:23)
11.  Indeed, if us Gentiles as the branches of a wild olive tree could be "grafted contrary to nature" into the root/trunk of the good olive tree, then "how much more" might "the natural branches" of that good olive tree be grafted back into "their own olive tree?"

Now, throughout this entire matter the root/trunk of the good olive tree plays a significant part.  What then does the root/trunk of the good olive tree represent?  While the passage does provide us with elements of information about the root/trunk of the good olive tree, it never actually specifies what the root/trunk of the good olive tree represents.  Thus ANY answer that we develop for our understanding of the parable and passage requires some level of conjecture or assumption.  For example, I believe that within your own struggle in relation to the passage, you have made an assumption concerning the representation for the root/trunk of the good olive tree, as follows --

Quote

I guess the biggest thing that confuses me is how this portion of Scripture is worded. I feel like if you read it in a simple way, it’d seem pretty straight-forward that if we don’t continue with God, we won’t be in His saving grace, anymore. It seems like a lot of things that appear to say that, if you take it as face value, it seems to go along with that belief. But, if one believes in security, then we have to look at it in a more complex way. (emphasis added by Pastor Scott Markle)

That portion in your above statement which I have emphasized appears to reveal your (assumed) understanding concerning that which the root/trunk of the good olive tree represents.  The parable and passage speaks about branches being cut off from the root/trunk (and fatness) of the good olive tree.  Above you speak about being "cut off" from God's saving grace.  Thus you appear to be equating God's saving grace with the root/trunk of the good olive tree.  I myself do not agree with this understanding for the representation of the root/trunk of the good olive tree for the following conjectured (deeper) reasonings --

1.  Whatever the root/trunk of the good olive tree might be, it is the possession of the Israelites naturally, such that they all were attached to it at the first (before they were cut off from it through unbelief).  Yet to me it does not appear Biblically correct to say that God's saving grace is NATURALLY possessed by the all Israelites, but that they might be cut off from that saving grace through unbelief.  Now, I might be able to accept the argument, not that the root/trunk of the good olive tree represents God's saving grace itself, but that it represents the OPPORTUNITY to receive to God's saving grace.  Then the passage would be indicating that the OPPORTUNITY and PRIVELEGE to receive God's saving grace (not the saving grace itself) is the possession of His chosen people NATURALLY, but that they spiritually fell from that greater OPPORTUNITY and PRIVELEGE to receive God's saving grace through their unbelief as a people, such that as a people they are now bound under a heavy cloud of spiritual blindness.  Even so, then the passage would also be indicating concerning the grafting in of us Gentiles, not that we now possess God's saving grace itself, but that we now possess a more ready OPPORTUNITY and PRIVELEGE to receive God's saving grace.  This more ready OPPORTUNITY and PRIVELEGE to receive God's saving grace would be God's goodness toward us Gentiles as a people.  Yet that goodness only continues toward us as a people if we continue in it.  However, if we Gentiles persist in unbelief against God's saving grace, that more ready OPPORTUNITY and PRIVELEGE to receive God's saving grace could be cut off from us also, such that we Gentiles also as a people (or some particular societal structure among us Gentiles) might be bound under the heavy cloud of spiritual blindness as the Israelites.

2.  As per the immediate context in Romans 11:5-6, God's saving grace comes specifically through His GRACE, such that it includes NO requirement of works whatsoever at all.  Yet if we claim (from Romans 11:20-22) that God's saving grace is indeed received initially through faith, but that we must continue in His goodness in order to remain therein without losing it, then we have added some level of "working faithfulness" to the means of God's saving grace.  Then we have -- God's saving grace is received through faith and retained through (working) faithfulness.  Yet Romans 11:6 clearly indicates that if it be at all of works, "then is it no more grace."  Now we have a contradiction within the immediate context of Romans 11.  Yet no such contradiction in God's Word can possibly be, especially within the same immediate context.  An apparent contradiction only reveals that we are in some manner not understanding something correctly.

3.  The primary principle for the parable of the two olive trees is NOT about the matter of eternal security (security established by God's promise) versus faithfulness security (security retained through our faithfulness).  Rather, the primary principle for the parable is a warning that we Gentiles (especially Gentile believers) should not develop a wrong attitude against unbelieving Israelites.  We should not become boastful against them.  We should not become high-minded against them.  We should not become wise in our own conceits against them.  Rather, we should ever walk in the fear of the Lord our God, and should ever retain a spirit of gracious humility in relation to the Israelites as the NATURAL branches of the good olive tree, into which God graciously grafted us within His goodness against our nature.

4.  Romans 11:28-32 provides the conclusion to the matter.  Therefore, its references to the gospel, the gifts and calling of God, and the mercy of God must all fit with unity in relation to our understanding of the parable in Romans 11:16-24.

5.  At least one other interpretive question requires consideration.  Throughout the parable of Romans 11:16-24, plural pronouns are employed for Israelite "branches" that were cut off from the good olive tree, whereas singular pronouns are employed for the Gentile representation in the parable.  So then, do these singular pronouns for the Gentile representation encompass the whole of Gentiles as a singular group; or do these singular pronouns for the Gentile representation reference just a single Gentile individual (possibly, a single Gentile believer).  It also worthy of notice that throughout the rest of the chapter's context, the Gentiles are considered from the plural perspective, just as the Israelites.

Now, above you ask the question --

Quote

 

So, in verse 22 is this specifically talking about the blessings at believers, depending on our walk with Him? 

 

Truly, the answer to your question is founded directly upon a correct understanding for what the root/trunk of the good olive tree represents.

In my previous postings, I have contended that the root/trunk of the good olive tree represents the covenants of promise that the Lord God originally gave unto the Israelites.

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There’s one more thing that’s been really nagging at me, that I heard. 

The seal of the Holy Spirit is a down payment, but when you get a down payment you can give it back or if you trash the house that someone gave their down payment for, they then legally aren’t obligated to purchase the house and can then get their down payment, back. Brings to mind when the Bible says to respect the our body because the Holy Spirit lives in us. 

Also, that we’re only engaged to Christ, not married yet. So we must be ready for when He comes back, so when Jesus comes, we are found spotless and as a chaste virgin. 

These definitely got me a bit concerned.

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      "Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?  And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not." (Jonah 3:9-10)
      “And God saw their works,” What did God see? Works. “ God saw their works,” now he is going to tell us what those works were: “that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”
      That right there says when you turn from your evil way, that is your WORKS, so if you believe that a person has to turn from their evil way and believe on Christ, then here’s what you're saying is required to be saved: to believe on Christ and have works!
      The Bible says salvation is without works and Jonah 3:10 says turning from your sins or turning from your evil ways is works, so that’s why this is such an important doctrine to understand and be clear on! 
      Of course, the devil wants to get you to trust in your works to save you --- this goes all the way back to Cain and Abel, where Cain is trusting his works instead of the blood of the lamb, all the way back to the Tower of Babel, where they’re trying to do their works/build their way to heaven, and all throughout Galatians he warns us: It's a false gospel when you think that you are justified by works, all throughout Romans he tells us we are not justified by works.
      All throughout the Bible God warns us.. 'trust Christ for salvation, don’t trust works' !
      The devil wants to get in the back door, he doesn’t just want to come right out and say, 'trust works!' knowing good and well that the Bible says NOT to trust works, so he wants to deceive you so you think: 
      "Well... it's not works but you do have to repent of your sins",
      .....OR....
      "Well.... I’m not saying it’s works but you can’t just live however you want, you gotta do something right... You gotta at least go to church three times a month or something, I mean you know you gotta do something right?"
      NO !!
      You have to do nothing because Jesus did everything, you believe on Christ, HIS works are sufficient, we don’t have to add anything to His works, JESUS CHRIST PAID IT ALL. 
       


    • By JacquelineDeane55
      Even if it was just two, it was all worth it. Their eternal destiny is now forever changed. Praise GOD He saved their souls.
      I helped invite people to VBS, but I don't know how many children actually came.
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