Whence?

[DaveW]

22 hours ago, wretched said:

Not knowing where something came from or where it went after it happened is a more modern paraphrase and deals with time as well as location (like bat out of hell or speeding bullet or "came outta nowhere").  The passage cannot be referencing simply locations because that would make zero sense in the context.

I gotta say, the implication that I am referring to a paraphrase or being influenced by a paraphrase is just a little offensive.

If you do a search of the word "whence" in your Bible program you come up with a list that overwhelmingly referring to position and location, with the POSSIBILITY that two or maybe three are using the word "whence" where we might use the word "What" today.

I will include the full list at the end of this post, but the fact is that the word "Whence", according the way it is used throughout the Bible, relates to LOCATION not time. Never once does it relate to time.

Read the verses - location all the way, never once time.

You cannot make a word mean what you want it to just because you don't understand the verse.

THAT is a dangerous path to go down.

Let the Bible determine the meaning of the words - and in this case it has done just that: "Whence" has to do with location, as in "Where did you come from?"

Here is the list from esword:

Gen_3:23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen_16:8  And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
Gen_24:5  And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest?
Gen_29:4  And Jacob said unto them, My brethren, whence be ye? And they said, Of Haran are we.
Gen_42:7  And Joseph saw his brethren, and he knew them, but made himself strange unto them, and spake roughly unto them; and he said unto them, Whence come ye? And they said, From the land of Canaan to buy food.
Num_11:13  Whence should I have flesh to give unto all this people? for they weep unto me, saying, Give us flesh, that we may eat.
Num_23:13  And Balak said unto him, Come, I pray thee, with me unto another place, from whence thou mayest see them: thou shalt see but the utmost part of them, and shalt not see them all: and curse me them from thence.
Deu_9:28  Lest the land whence thou broughtest us out say, Because the LORD was not able to bring them into the land which he promised them, and because he hated them, he hath brought them out to slay them in the wilderness.
Deu_11:10  For the land, whither thou goest in to possess it, is not as the land of Egypt, from whence ye came out, where thou sowedst thy seed, and wateredst it with thy foot, as a garden of herbs:
Jos_2:4  And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were:
Jos_9:8  And they said unto Joshua, We are thy servants. And Joshua said unto them, Who are ye? and from whence come ye?
Jos_20:6  And he shall dwell in that city, until he stand before the congregation for judgment, and until the death of the high priest that shall be in those days: then shall the slayer return, and come unto his own city, and unto his own house, unto the city from whence he fled.
Jdg_13:6  Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:
Jdg_17:9  And Micah said unto him, Whence comest thou? And he said unto him, I am a Levite of Bethlehemjudah, and I go to sojourn where I may find a place.
Jdg_19:17  And when he had lifted up his eyes, he saw a wayfaring man in the street of the city: and the old man said, Whither goest thou? and whence comest thou?
1Sa_25:11  Shall I then take my bread, and my water, and my flesh that I have killed for my shearers, and give it unto men, whom I know not whence they be?
1Sa_30:13  And David said unto him, To whom belongest thou? and whence art thou? And he said, I am a young man of Egypt, servant to an Amalekite; and my master left me, because three days agone I fell sick.
2Sa_1:3  And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped.
2Sa_1:13  And David said unto the young man that told him, Whence art thou? And he answered, I am the son of a stranger, an Amalekite.
2Ki_5:25  But he went in, and stood before his master. And Elisha said unto him, Whence comest thou, Gehazi? And he said, Thy servant went no whither.
2Ki_6:27  And he said, If the LORD do not help thee, whence shall I help thee? out of the barnfloor, or out of the winepress?
2Ki_20:14  Then came Isaiah the prophet unto king Hezekiah, and said unto him, What said these men? and from whence came they unto thee? And Hezekiah said, They are come from a far country, even from Babylon.
Neh_4:12  And it came to pass, that when the Jews which dwelt by them came, they said unto us ten times, From all places whence ye shall return unto us they will be upon you.
Job_1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job_2:2  And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job_10:21  Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
Job_16:22  When a few years are come, then I shall go the way whence I shall not return.
Job_28:20  Whence then cometh wisdom? and where is the place of understanding?
Psa_121:1  A Song of degrees. I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
Ecc_1:7  All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
Isa_30:6  The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.
Isa_39:3  Then came Isaiah the prophet unto king Hezekiah, and said unto him, What said these men? and from whence came they unto thee? And Hezekiah said, They are come from a far country unto me, even from Babylon.
Isa_47:11  Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.
Isa_51:1  Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
Jer_29:14  And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.
Jon_1:8  Then said they unto him, Tell us, we pray thee, for whose cause this evil is upon us; What is thine occupation? and whence comest thou? what is thy country? and of what people art thou?
Nah_3:7  And it shall come to pass, that all they that look upon thee shall flee from thee, and say, Nineveh is laid waste: who will bemoan her? whence shall I seek comforters for thee?
Mat_12:44  Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat_13:27  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat_13:54  And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
Mat_13:56  And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Mat_15:33  And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude?
Mat_21:25  The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Mar_6:2  And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Mar_8:4  And his disciples answered him, From whence can a man satisfy these men with bread here in the wilderness?
Mar_12:37  David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
Luk_1:43  And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luk_11:24  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
Luk_13:25  When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luk_13:27  But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luk_20:7  And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.
Joh_1:48  Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
Joh_2:9  When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
Joh_3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh_4:11  The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh_6:5  When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
Joh_7:27  Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.
Joh_7:28  Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
Joh_8:14  Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Joh_9:29  We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
Joh_9:30  The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence
he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
Joh_19:9  And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
Act_14:26  And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
Php_3:20  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Heb_11:15  And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb_11:19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Jas_4:1  From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Rev_2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev_7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

69 verses found, 72 matches
Genesis 5 verses found 5 matches
Numbers 2 verses found 2 matches
Deuteronomy 2 verses found 2 matches
Joshua 3 verses found 3 matches
Judges 3 verses found 3 matches
1 Samuel 2 verses found 2 matches
2 Samuel 2 verses found 2 matches
2 Kings 3 verses found 3 matches
Nehemiah 1 verse found 1 match
Job 5 verses found 5 matches
Psalms 1 verse found 1 match
Ecclesiastes 1 verse found 1 match
Isaiah 4 verses found 5 matches
Jeremiah 1 verse found 1 match
Jonah 1 verse found 1 match
Nahum 1 verse found 1 match
Matthew 6 verses found 6 matches
Mark 3 verses found 3 matches
Luke 5 verses found 5 matches
John 11 verses found 13 matches
Acts 1 verse found 1 match
Philippians 1 verse found 1 match
Hebrews 2 verses found 2 matches
James 1 verse found 1 match
Revelation 2 verses found 2 matches

 

Note: I have started this thread because it is not proper to continue in the original thread,especially as the Mods have asked for it to get back on topic.

The original post is here so that everyone can see the context of the quote above.
 

[wretched]

22 minutes ago, DaveW said:

I gotta say, the implication that I am referring to a paraphrase or being influenced by a paraphrase is just a little offensive.

If you do a search of the word "whence" in your Bible program you come up with a list that overwhelmingly referring to position and location, with the POSSIBILITY that two or maybe three are using the word "whence" where we might use the word "What" today.

I will include the full list at the end of this post, but the fact is that the word "Whence", according the way it is used throughout the Bible, relates to LOCATION not time. Never once does it relate to time.

Read the verses - location all the way, never once time.

You cannot make a word mean what you want it to just because you don't understand the verse.

THAT is a dangerous path to go down.

Let the Bible determine the meaning of the words - and in this case it has done just that: "Whence" has to do with location, as in "Where did you come from?"

Here is the list from esword:

Gen_3:23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen_16:8  And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
Gen_24:5  And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest?
Gen_29:4  And Jacob said unto them, My brethren, whence be ye? And they said, Of Haran are we.
Gen_42:7  And Joseph saw his brethren, and he knew them, but made himself strange unto them, and spake roughly unto them; and he said unto them, Whence come ye? And they said, From the land of Canaan to buy food.
Num_11:13  Whence should I have flesh to give unto all this people? for they weep unto me, saying, Give us flesh, that we may eat.
Num_23:13  And Balak said unto him, Come, I pray thee, with me unto another place, from whence thou mayest see them: thou shalt see but the utmost part of them, and shalt not see them all: and curse me them from thence.
Deu_9:28  Lest the land whence thou broughtest us out say, Because the LORD was not able to bring them into the land which he promised them, and because he hated them, he hath brought them out to slay them in the wilderness.
Deu_11:10  For the land, whither thou goest in to possess it, is not as the land of Egypt, from whence ye came out, where thou sowedst thy seed, and wateredst it with thy foot, as a garden of herbs:
Jos_2:4  And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were:
Jos_9:8  And they said unto Joshua, We are thy servants. And Joshua said unto them, Who are ye? and from whence come ye?
Jos_20:6  And he shall dwell in that city, until he stand before the congregation for judgment, and until the death of the high priest that shall be in those days: then shall the slayer return, and come unto his own city, and unto his own house, unto the city from whence he fled.
Jdg_13:6  Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:
Jdg_17:9  And Micah said unto him, Whence comest thou? And he said unto him, I am a Levite of Bethlehemjudah, and I go to sojourn where I may find a place.
Jdg_19:17  And when he had lifted up his eyes, he saw a wayfaring man in the street of the city: and the old man said, Whither goest thou? and whence comest thou?
1Sa_25:11  Shall I then take my bread, and my water, and my flesh that I have killed for my shearers, and give it unto men, whom I know not whence they be?
1Sa_30:13  And David said unto him, To whom belongest thou? and whence art thou? And he said, I am a young man of Egypt, servant to an Amalekite; and my master left me, because three days agone I fell sick.
2Sa_1:3  And David said unto him, From whence comest thou? And he said unto him, Out of the camp of Israel am I escaped.
2Sa_1:13  And David said unto the young man that told him, Whence art thou? And he answered, I am the son of a stranger, an Amalekite.
2Ki_5:25  But he went in, and stood before his master. And Elisha said unto him, Whence comest thou, Gehazi? And he said, Thy servant went no whither.
2Ki_6:27  And he said, If the LORD do not help thee, whence shall I help thee? out of the barnfloor, or out of the winepress?
2Ki_20:14  Then came Isaiah the prophet unto king Hezekiah, and said unto him, What said these men? and from whence came they unto thee? And Hezekiah said, They are come from a far country, even from Babylon.
Neh_4:12  And it came to pass, that when the Jews which dwelt by them came, they said unto us ten times, From all places whence ye shall return unto us they will be upon you.
Job_1:7  And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job_2:2  And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Job_10:21  Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
Job_16:22  When a few years are come, then I shall go the way whence I shall not return.
Job_28:20  Whence then cometh wisdom? and where is the place of understanding?
Psa_121:1  A Song of degrees. I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.
Ecc_1:7  All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again.
Isa_30:6  The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.
Isa_39:3  Then came Isaiah the prophet unto king Hezekiah, and said unto him, What said these men? and from whence came they unto thee? And Hezekiah said, They are come from a far country unto me, even from Babylon.
Isa_47:11  Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.
Isa_51:1  Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the LORD: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.
Jer_29:14  And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.
Jon_1:8  Then said they unto him, Tell us, we pray thee, for whose cause this evil is upon us; What is thine occupation? and whence comest thou? what is thy country? and of what people art thou?
Nah_3:7  And it shall come to pass, that all they that look upon thee shall flee from thee, and say, Nineveh is laid waste: who will bemoan her? whence shall I seek comforters for thee?
Mat_12:44  Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
Mat_13:27  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat_13:54  And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
Mat_13:56  And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
Mat_15:33  And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude?
Mat_21:25  The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men? And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say unto us, Why did ye not then believe him?
Mar_6:2  And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
Mar_8:4  And his disciples answered him, From whence can a man satisfy these men with bread here in the wilderness?
Mar_12:37  David therefore himself calleth him Lord; and whence is he then his son? And the common people heard him gladly.
Luk_1:43  And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luk_11:24  When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
Luk_13:25  When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luk_13:27  But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luk_20:7  And they answered, that they could not tell whence it was.
Joh_1:48  Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.
Joh_2:9  When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom,
Joh_3:8  The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh_4:11  The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?
Joh_6:5  When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto him, he saith unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat?
Joh_7:27  Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.
Joh_7:28  Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
Joh_8:14  Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.
Joh_9:29  We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
Joh_9:30  The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence
he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
Joh_19:9  And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
Act_14:26  And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been recommended to the grace of God for the work which they fulfilled.
Php_3:20  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
Heb_11:15  And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb_11:19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
Jas_4:1  From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
Rev_2:5  Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev_7:13  And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

69 verses found, 72 matches
Genesis 5 verses found 5 matches
Numbers 2 verses found 2 matches
Deuteronomy 2 verses found 2 matches
Joshua 3 verses found 3 matches
Judges 3 verses found 3 matches
1 Samuel 2 verses found 2 matches
2 Samuel 2 verses found 2 matches
2 Kings 3 verses found 3 matches
Nehemiah 1 verse found 1 match
Job 5 verses found 5 matches
Psalms 1 verse found 1 match
Ecclesiastes 1 verse found 1 match
Isaiah 4 verses found 5 matches
Jeremiah 1 verse found 1 match
Jonah 1 verse found 1 match
Nahum 1 verse found 1 match
Matthew 6 verses found 6 matches
Mark 3 verses found 3 matches
Luke 5 verses found 5 matches
John 11 verses found 13 matches
Acts 1 verse found 1 match
Philippians 1 verse found 1 match
Hebrews 2 verses found 2 matches
James 1 verse found 1 match
Revelation 2 verses found 2 matches

 

Note: I have started this thread because it is not proper to continue in the original thread,especially as the Mods have asked for it to get back on topic.

The original post is here so that everyone can see the context of the quote above.
 

Thems allot of verses. Dave you can believe whatsoever you want about it, no problem for me at all. IMO you are wrong but that is your business now. Fair enough?

Besides, It appears we are so far differing in understanding the Lords Words on this, it might be impossible to convince either of us so why try.

Edited July 26, 2017 by wretched

[DaveW]

Sure then, make up your own meanings for words - just don't accuse me of using paraphrases to justify it.

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Indeed, that is "allot" of Scripture passages.  Yet that is just what diligent Bible study is -- a thorough consideration of all the passages that apply to a given subject matter, so as to develop a thorough understanding of all that God's Holy Word teaches concerning that matter.  These "allot" of Scripture passages are God's own Word on the matter.  If an individual is not willing to be diligent in considering these "allot" of Scripture passages on the matter, then that individual is disregarding God's own Word on the matter.

[wretched]

8 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Indeed, that is "allot" of Scripture passages.  Yet that is just what diligent Bible study is -- a thorough consideration of all the passages that apply to a given subject matter, so as to develop a thorough understanding of all that God's Holy Word teaches concerning that matter.  These "allot" of Scripture passages are God's own Word on the matter.  If an individual is not willing to be diligent in considering these "allot" of Scripture passages on the matter, then that individual is disregarding God's own Word on the matter.

LOL, I certainly wasn't dissuading word searches Scott. I realize that you were only commenting on that opening phrase of mine but since you did, I will explain, keeping it short and not directed specifically to you or Dave or anyone on this forum.

There are numerous passages which use the same words but with different context clarifying the exact meaning. Individual words alone do not make a context, precept or doctrine.

According to Dave's post, verse 8 of John 3 would then become unnecessary anecdote. Unless of course someone has a rational explanation for the passage apart from my take on it (which I am certainly open to hear but haven't yet-ever). There is no filler in God's Word, it all has meaning and must be understood in the context of the passage first and foremost. There is important meaning to the passage that must not be overlooked. Regardless of how many times whence is used as location only in other passages, John 3: 8 has a "from "and "to" meaning related to stealth and unawareness of the event like the wind in this passage. I believe that is exactly what He is saying and should stop the prideful foolishness of so called teachers and preachers who push their own increases with false conversions. 

The big numbers bragging business is the "accreditation" needed for big money and big names in fundamental and emerging circles. When it began, they touted bigness as God's stamp of success when God never said any man "of His" would be a success on earth but rather a servant. Humble service is success according to the God.

It is these baloney numbers and tare filled churches with their para-church organizations that gave these "pastors" big names, big speaking circuits and big merchandising money (not one bit of any of it is of God or Scriptural in any way). Always has been since this easy believism apostasy began in the late 60s. Greed of filthy lucre and the love of mammon (praise and admiration of men, fame, name recognition, worldly credentials etc.) is exactly the motivation behind the big numbers movement. It was never about the humble, secret, service of God.

I bring this up here because this is the reason I feel this passage cannot be overlooked. No one takes credit for a soul except God. Oh, I know they say they don't take credit for souls but their emphasis was always on bigness and "souls" saved (how many bowed and recited the sinner's prayer). The counting continues to this day with the crops of preacher boys that came up under these apostates worshipping the creatures more than the Creator. These men reaped what they sowed and so did those churches that exalted them. God judged these men accordingly IMO. I have heard some of these say that they can't wait to see what areas God will give them to rule during the millennium due to their obvious success (my paraphrase but their meaning matches exactly).

These will be pushing brooms during the millennium according to God (if they are there at all). It will be the humble, sincere, poor in spirit servants of God who are unknown to us now who will truly reign according to God.

God has said clearly that if a person wants to be a big shot here.....They won't be in Heaven.

I can hear the "big shots" now saying "What, who is that guy or gal, I never heard of them???" How come they get to reign? They never had doctor titles, big numbers, book deals or spoke at the big conferences?

Tirade concluded....for now.

 

Edited July 26, 2017 by wretched