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The Biblical Tithe: Cash or Crops?

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10 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

I am Pastor of Set at Liberty Baptist.  We are an Independent Fundamental Baptist Church in Cleveland, MS.

What Church do you attend?

Do you have a website?

1 hour ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

Nope... we meet in a home.  Cuts out a lot of overhead, since we are already paying the electric bill ourselves.

Even if we were in a big building, we wouldn't be lying to our congregation in order to garner finances to pay the bills.  Instead, we would do what I did in the last two churches I pastored... we would tell them when a bill came in and how much it is.  Then, we would pray, asking God to move hearts to give what they could afford.  And we would exercise our faith, believing God would move hearts. 

Worked with the church in Virginia, and with the one in North Carolina as well.  Pretty sure, it would work here in Mississippi too.  Lies about tithes weren't necessary.  We teach people the joy of giving.  Forced giving breeds contempt.

Jesus did have a Treasurer.  However, neither He, nor His Treasurer, collected tithes of His Disciples.

So you operate  out of your home?

That explains a lot.

Is your home big enough to assemble 300 people?

Do you go soulwinning?

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3 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

 

Is your home big enough to assemble 300 people?

 

??????????????????????????????????

Trying to understand what this has to do with anything???????????????

There's not a church, Kingdom Hall or any other "place of worship" within 100 miles of where I am that ever have more than 125 in the building AT ALL!

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1 hour ago, LindaR said:

Our church meets in a home...not a tabernacle.  We don't tithe, we give from the heart.  The biblical tithe was always agricultural, NEVER money!

Church functions on grace and free will GIVING and we pay our own rent and utilities.  Giving and tithing are not the same....giving is a "heart" principle and tithing is an ordinance of the Mosaic law. 

All you said was how wonderful your pastor is and how everything was free.....then you turn around and say your rent is $6,000 a month.  Ever hear about free will and grace giving???  Since biblical tithing was never money, the purpose of the biblical tithe (which was always agricultural from the land of Canaan/Israel) was never meant for paying bills, but to sustain the tribe of Levi. 

Our tithes do sustain.

We give to our church because we KNOW our Pastor is using it to pay the church building's rent, and provide a place for saints to assemble. Also, our church is growing. House churches are a good stepping stone for Pastors who are new to the ministry & still working to get a real building for the church established, but I don't think it is practical to meet in a house indefinitely, as a church should see growth.

And our Pastor doesn't force us to tithe, we do it because it makes sense, and our church goes soulwinning weekly, and we give hundreds of people the Gospel & collectively  get hundreds of people saved. Call it giving if you wish, because we do give joyfully, but we all give a tithe(tenth). We give 10%.

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32 minutes ago, OLD fashioned preacher said:

??????????????????????????????????

Trying to understand what this has to do with anything???????????????

There's not a church, Kingdom Hall or any other "place of worship" within 100 miles of where I am that ever have more than 125 in the building AT ALL!

I was emphasizing how a house "church" isn't of sufficient size to seat the number of people that congregate on an average Sunday morning.

300 is a modest figure, at least from my experience, living in a major city. 

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15 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

Do you have a website?

So you operate  out of your home?

That explains a lot.

Is your home big enough to assemble 300 people?

Do you go soulwinning?

No, we don't have a website.

What difference does it make where we "operate" or how many people are present  at a worship service?  Why are you so "into" numbers?  Whether there are five, ten, twenty, or whatever number are present is not important.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Soul winning should not be an "extra curricular" activity of the born again Christian.  It should be an everyday event in the life of the born again Christian.  We are to be about sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ daily.  We are not going to "win" everyone....we are to plant seeds and God will bring in the increase.
1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Edited by LindaR
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11 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

Our tithes do sustain.

We give to our church because we KNOW our Pastor is using it to pay the church building's rent, and provide a place for saints to assemble. Also, our church is growing. House churches are a good stepping stone for Pastors who are new to the ministry & still working to get a real building for the church established, but I don't think it is practical to meet in a house indefinitely, as a church should see growth.

And our Pastor doesn't force us to tithe, we do it because it makes sense, and our church goes soulwinning weekly, and we give hundreds of people the Gospel & collectively  get hundreds of people saved. Call it giving if you wish, because we do give joyfully, but we all give a tithe(tenth). We give 10%.

The Biblical agricultural tithes which God commanded for the children of Israel (farmers and herders) were to FEED the tribe of Levi during their time of service working in the tabernacle (not in the wilderness) and later the temple, when they were living in the land of Canaan/Israel. 

What do your man-made monetary tithes sustain?   Your pastor's lifestyle (which doesn't have to be lavish), paying the rent in the place/building where you meet to worship, extra-curricular activities, perhaps missions, etc.   This was NEVER the purpose of the Biblical agricultural tithe.   Tithes were EATEN....do you eat money?   Free will, sacrificial and grace giving works fine to sustain all that a church requires to meet their needs.  What you give as biblical tithes are not biblical tithes....but simply 10% of your gross income.  Biblical tithes were never monetary throughout the Bible and nobody has ever given Scriptural proof that a monetary tithe was EVER commanded by God.  It is a man-made doctrine.
Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Your opinions don't justify the compulsory monetary tithe, so you can stop bragging about how your man-made tithes are used.  I'm not impressed.  And as for house churches......that's a matter of opinion also.  The first century church met in houses DAILY to break bread and fellowship/worship.  Three thousand were saved on the day of Pentecost.  The upper room was somebody's house.

Acts 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.   

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls

Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,   

Acts 5:42 And daily in the temple, and in every house, they ceased not to teach and preach Jesus Christ.   

Acts 20:20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house,

Edited by LindaR
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The first century AD Church had 3,000 added to it in one day.  Funny thing, thirty-six years later, when the Epistles of John were written, there were still house churches. 

I don't recall a single admonition given by the Apostles in the Bible, for people to stop having house churches.  I may have missed it though.  I've only been reading and studying the Bible for thirty-eight years now.  If you know the verse that says people are discouraged from meeting in houses, please post it.  I'd really love to see it.

If our church grows to where it is too big to meet in a home, we may get a bigger building.  Or, we may emulate the pattern seen in the first century AD... we may go from house to house preaching the word and breaking bread. 

Why is a big building necessary?  Why take on such an overhead?  Big buildings mean that, not only does the pastor have his home electric bill to pay, now he must pay on another electric bill.  Not only do the church members have their own electric bill to pay, they now must help pay another electric bill. 

If they are using the electric in their homes anyway, why not meet in their homes while the electricity is being used? 

Then, there's the rent of the building.  People are paying their rent and mortgage payments already.  Why burden them with another rent payment?  It seems more economical to emulate the first century AD Christians and meet house to house and lay off the overhead costs of another building that they would only meet three times a week on average?

I thought about that $6,000/mo. cost of renting a place to worship in a strip mall.  I think how such an exorbitant amount could feed many hungry in the community.  Now, your pastor may feel justified in renting such a big place.  I could not.

Even if the Church I pastor grew to 3000, I could not justify paying for a big building.  I would instead train others to pastor and teach them to go house to house, breaking bread and sharing God's truth.

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17 hours ago, LindaR said:

No, we don't have a website.

What difference does it make where we "operate" or how many people are present  at a worship service?  Why are you so "into" numbers?  Whether there are five, ten, twenty, or whatever number are present is not important.
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Soul winning should not be an "extra curricula" activity of the born again Christian.  It should be an everyday event in the life of the born again Christian.  We are to be about sharing the Gospel of Jesus Christ daily.  We are not going to "win" everyone....we are to plant seeds and God will bring in the increase.
1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
1 Corinthians 3:7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

It really isn't about the numbers as much as the fact that a good, biblically sound, soulwinning church WILL be blessed by God , and WILL grow, even if it is slowly at first.

I agree that it is God that gives the increase. But the harvest is plenty and the labourers few.  Of course we are to preach the Gospel to every creature. That's a given.

That is why we go soulwinning. It isn't some extracurricular activity, it is our COMMAND from our high priest, Jesus Christ.

Because every 3 seconds, someone dies and goes to Hell.

Are you comfortable with that? Not me. We ought to have compassion for the unsaved, and to love the lost and WANT them to be saved.

With all the IFB churches in America, if we ALL went soulwinning just once a week, we would knock the doors of every house in America, we would have a revival that would shake the ends of the earth.

I'm sick & tired of going soulwinning & the only other people besides us out knocking doors are the Jehovah's False Witnesses or the Mormons!

WHERE are all the IFBs? Or ANY Baptists? There are exponentially more of us than the JW or Mormons..

Look, I really don't care if I see eye to eye with every miniscule issue that isn't major doctrine with all my brethren. Who cares if we disagree on things like Zionism, tithes, timing of the rapture or bible prophecy....if someone is saved, and they know they can't lose it, they know that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ ONLY, and believe the King James Holy Bible is the Word of God & they desire to see the lost get saved  then I count them my brethren & say let's not forsake our first work, which is going door to door with Bible in hand & tear in the eye & give the Gospel of Jesus Christ to every creature.

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O where are the reapers that garner in
The sheaves of the good from the fields of sin?
With sickles of truth must the work be done,
And no one may rest till the harvest home.

Refrain

Where are the reapers? O who will come
And share in the glory of the harvest home?
O who will help us to garner in
The sheaves of good from the fields of sin?

Go out in the byways and search them all;
The wheat may be there but the weeds are tall;
Then search in the highway, and pass none by;
But gather them all for the home on high.

Refrain

The fields are all ripening, and far and wide
The world now is waiting the harvest tide:
But reapers are few, and the work is great,
And much will be lost should the harvest wait.

Refrain

So come with your sickles, ye sons of men,
And gather together the golden grain;
Toil on till the Lord of the harvest come,
Then share ye His joy in the harvest home.

Refrain

 

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4 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

It really isn't about the numbers as much as the fact that a good, biblically sound, soulwinning church WILL be blessed by God , and WILL grow, even if it is slowly at first.

A religious institution that teaches its members that God requires monetary tithing IS NOT "biblically sound". 

Not one Scripture or verse in the entire Bible says that God requires tithes of monetary income... not one.

 

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5 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

With all the IFB churches in America, if we ALL went soulwinning just once a week, we would knock the doors of every house in America, we would have a revival that would shake the ends of the earth.

 

That is not necessarily true.

I know an IFB Pastor in Level Cross, NC (I once served on the Deacon Board at his church) who took a team out knocking on doors quite often.  Hardly made a difference. 

One community of 163 homes only brought one man to the church.  One out of one hundred sixty-three.  Even if every door in America were knocked on, the results would not change much more than that.

Why?  Because we are living in the last days.  The age of the Laodicean Church.  Apostasy... not Revival.    Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. 

Does this mean we shouldn't witness Christ to a lost and dying world?  Of course not!  There's always the possibility that one out of one hundred sixty-three that will be hungry for righteousness.

Revival doesn't happen when the lost get saved.  It happens when the children of God, who have strayed from God return to God.

Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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16 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

That is not necessarily true.

I know an IFB Pastor in Level Cross, NC (I once served on the Deacon Board at his church) who took a team out knocking on doors quite often.  Hardly made a difference. 

One community of 163 homes only brought one man to the church.  One out of one hundred sixty-three.  Even if every door in America were knocked on, the results would not change much more than that.

Why?  Because we are living in the last days.  The age of the Laodicean Church.  Apostasy... not Revival.    Men love darkness rather than light because their deeds are evil. 

Does this mean we shouldn't witness Christ to a lost and dying world?  Of course not!  There's always the possibility that one out of one hundred sixty-three that will be hungry for righteousness.

Revival doesn't happen when the lost get saved.  It happens when the children of God, who have strayed from God return to God.

Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
Hosea 6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

God bless that Pastor in NC.

Maybe only one guy came to church, but a person can be saved without ever stepping foot in a church. Of course we WANT them to get into church but even if they don't, and they allow us to to give them the Gospel of Jesus Christ and they BELIEVE it  and are saved it was still worth it. EVERY soul matters.

Is it better to just let them all go to Hell?

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2 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

Here is a video where I was interviewed when my book, "The Biblical Tithe: Cash or Crops?" went to the Publishers.

So you were ordained at age 29 by a PENTECOSTAL church?

Please tell me you don't speak in tongues.

Were you ordained according to the biblical requirements set forth in 1 Timothy 3 & Titus 1??

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2 hours ago, BabeinChrist said:

So you were ordained at age 29 by a PENTECOSTAL church?

Please tell me you don't speak in tongues.

Were you ordained according to the biblical requirements set forth in 1 Timothy 3 & Titus 1??

No, I don't speak in tongues.  Nor do I do the "slain in the Spirit" thing.

I got out of the Pentecostal movement the same year I was ordained. (approximately 4 months after)

I have been Independent Fundamental Baptist since late-1988.  I felt God calling me to start a new ministry in Northern Virginia.  As I studied in preparation for that ministry, the Spirit began opening my eyes to practices in the Pentecostal movement that could not be supported by Scripture at all.

When I left that movement to begin a new ministry, I left much of its doctrines behind.

Did I ever believe in speaking in tongues or being "slain in the Spirit"?  To be perfectly honest, my spirit never did set well with the doctrine.  But I had been raised in that environment. 

I knew the word and was often called to speak.  I just never approached those two subjects, because, as I said, I was troubled in my spirit about them all along.

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As to the "slain in the Spirit" thing, I often tell people, "If ever I am in a service and something like that starts happening, I hope I am standing behind one of those who are being "slain".

If I am, as soon as I see them start to fall, I will gladly step to the side and let them fall.

After all, if the Spirit is knocking them down, who am I to hinder the Spirit?  If He wants to knock them down, He will knock them down at the speed that He wants.  Catching them will hinder them from falling, thereby hindering the Spirit.

If it was the Spirit that knocked them down, they'll stay down.  If not, they will get up quickly and I;ll see what kind of spirit really knocked them down  LoL"

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22 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

As to the "slain in the Spirit" thing, I often tell people, "If ever I am in a service and something like that starts happening, I hope I am standing behind one of those who are being "slain".

If I am, as soon as I see them start to fall, I will gladly step to the side and let them fall.

After all, if the Spirit is knocking them down, who am I to hinder the Spirit?  If He wants to knock them down, He will knock them down at the speed that He wants.  Catching them will hinder them from falling, thereby hindering the Spirit.

If it was the Spirit that knocked them down, they'll stay down.  If not, they will get up quickly and I;ll see what kind of spirit really knocked them down  LoL"

Yes, all the false prophet Benny Hinn nonsense is nothing but a bunch of Mortal Kombat hocus pocus.

The speaking in tongues thing is too. It's unbiblical. Anyone that reads their Bible knows the miracle at Pentecost was people understanding the preaching in their own native language, not some otherworldly, demonic ranting.

God is certainly not the author of confusion.

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The Proper Teaching of Malachi 3:7-11
by Ronald W Robey

The proper teaching from Malachi 3:7-11 should be that tithing was an ordinance (v.7) given to national Israel, not to the Church. (Lev. 27:30-34; Mal. 1:1; 2:1)

The proper teaching from Malachi 3:7-11 should be that Malachi was referring to a tithe of crops and livestock… not money. (Lev. 27:30-33)

The proper teaching from Malachi 3:7-11 should be that the curse associated with not tithing was allowing the locusts to eat the crops, (v.11) and withholding of rain (Gen. 7:5; 8:2)… not loss of money, loss of job, ill health, automotive engine failures, broken families, etc..

The proper teaching from Malachi 3:7-11 should be that the blessings associated with tithing was God sending rain from heaven (Gen. 7:5; 8:2; Mal. 3:11) and preventing the locust from eating the crops… bringing about a bountiful harvest… not more money, better job, good health, perfect running vehicles, close-knit family, etc..

The proper teaching from Malachi 3:7-11 is that rhe rebuke and admonition was delivered to the Priests of Israel, (Mal. 2:1) not to the Church. The Church was not robbing God… the Priests of Israel were.

Monetary tithe requirement teachers clearly distort the proper teaching of Malachi 3, turning the rebuke and admonition intended for the Priests of Israel into something that God never decreed. The monetary tithe requirement doctrine is an improper and abusive doctrine that oppresses the laborer from his wages, the widows and orphans. It has no place in the pulpit of the post-crucifixion Church. (Acts 15:19-20; 2 Cor. 9:6-7)

Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Pastors need to allow the light to shine upon their hearts and minds as they study God’s Word. Take off the blinders of religion, opinion, and tradition; interpret the Scripture with the mind of Christ. If they do, God will reveal to them that which He has revealed to many concerning the tithes of the Mosaic/Levitic Law. If they allow God’s Word to speak for itself, they will come to no other conclusion than that God never imposed a monetary tithe upon Tabernacle, Temple, Synagogue or Church.

https://boldproclaimer.wordpress.com/2015/07/13/the-proper-teaching-of-malachi-37-11/
 

Edited by LindaR
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