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Thanks to those who answered my previous question about the Lord's Supper and confession. I do have another question. 

It is standard, accepted history that the Catholic Church put the books of the Holy Bible together. This is a common Catholic talking point when debating Protestants (I understand Baptists do not consider themselves Protestant, but it is a catchall term) and one I've used in the past, is that the Catholic Church put the Bible together via the Holy Spirit so how can non-Catholics claim the Roman Church is un-Biblical? How do Baptists square the idea they are the closest to the New Testament churches if they didn't put the Bible together and the Roman Church did? Why would the Lord use an organization many Protestants and Baptists believe is the Whore of Babylon to put together His Scriptures? 

Thanks in advance for any responses.

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The claim that Catholics canonized the bible is false!  The bible was completed during the lifetime of the 12 apostles who helped to write it under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.  The church at Antioch was the church that saw to the scriptures being written and distributed.  History shows that most Baptistic churches had all or nearly all of the books of the bible before the Catholics even came into existence.  

There are so many verses in the scriptures itself that prove the popery in no way canonized the bible.  Besides, they've rejected God's preserved Word and replaced it with their own and place the traditions of men above scripture as well.  All works of the devil.  The history of the Catholic church itself proves that it is a work of the devil.

I'll let others chime in with scripture as it's time for dinner now in my home.

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God can use all kinds of reprobates and/or heathens to do His will and/or preserve His word. Throughout both the Old and New Testament men like Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar, Herod, and the Roman Pilate were used by God to carry out His will. Some of them attempted to wipe out the history of God, His Word, and even His people. Because of Rome men were driven into hiding in caves and remote desert places where the ancient manuscripts of both OT and NT were preserved. So, even the Roman Church was used to carry the scriptures through the wilderness of time where she thought no one but her would be allowed to read and interpret. However, the contrivances and "devices of the crafty" can be and were disappointed by God's will. The Emperor-Priests of Rome had no idea how the truth would spread and lead to Bibles published in the tongues of every nation. 

2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

Edited by 1Timothy115

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The simple answer is that the Catholics accepted the apocryphal books which are clearly not inspired Scripture. 

If they were guided by the Holy Spirit they would not have got that wrong.

And before you go there, the apocrypha was included in the KJV but noted as not inspired.

And of course the OT was settled long before the RC abomination was inexistence, by the people who the RC have constantly tried to destroy - the Jews.

 

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2 hours ago, swathdiver said:

The claim that Catholics canonized the bible is false!  The bible was completed during the lifetime of the 12 apostles who helped to write it under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.  The church at Antioch was the church that saw to the scriptures being written and distributed.  History shows that most Baptistic churches had all or nearly all of the books of the bible before the Catholics even came into existence.  

There are so many verses in the scriptures itself that prove the popery in no way canonized the bible.  Besides, they've rejected God's preserved Word and replaced it with their own and place the traditions of men above scripture as well.  All works of the devil.  The history of the Catholic church itself proves that it is a work of the devil.

I'll let others chime in with scripture as it's time for dinner now in my home.

When you have time do you mind linking anything on the canon of the Bible being completed before the Catholics (claim to have) created the canon? I'm honestly curious as I haven't ever heard that before.

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Perhaps I'm too simple-minded, but who "canonized" the Bible is moot. The Catholic church didn't write the Bible; they took what was already in existence and put them together.

DaveW makes a valid point; in that, they weren't led by the Spirit in their choosing. Otherwise, they wouldn't have proclaimed the Apocryphal books as belonging. That alone shows they believed error. However, God did use them to bring his word together. Why? I don't know...perhaps it was simply because they had the resources to do so. The books they canonized later spurned the Reformation. So God used them to put something together...that later, and even though the Reformers had major problems...it allowed people to see the truth of God's word and reject Rome's heresies.

Anyone can be given a great tool, but that doesn't mean they know how to use it.

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18 hours ago, swathdiver said:

The claim that Catholics canonized the bible is false!  The bible was completed during the lifetime of the 12 apostles who helped to write it under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost.  The church at Antioch was the church that saw to the scriptures being written and distributed.  History shows that most Baptistic churches had all or nearly all of the books of the bible before the Catholics even came into existence.  

There are so many verses in the scriptures itself that prove the popery in no way canonized the bible.  Besides, they've rejected God's preserved Word and replaced it with their own and place the traditions of men above scripture as well.  All works of the devil.  The history of the Catholic church itself proves that it is a work of the devil.

I'll let others chime in with scripture as it's time for dinner now in my home.

Hello! 
I don't want debates or anything, but can I ask for support for every statement?
It's one of the topics I can't fully understand and defend from my catholic friends. 

It's easy to say anything but can I ask a specific support for all claims?
Thank you so much. 

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21 hours ago, Wayfaring Stranger said:

When you have time do you mind linking anything on the canon of the Bible being completed before the Catholics (claim to have) created the canon? I'm honestly curious as I haven't ever heard that before.

 

5 hours ago, Celina Capalad said:

Hello! 
I don't want debates or anything, but can I ask for support for every statement?
It's one of the topics I can't fully understand and defend from my catholic friends. 

It's easy to say anything but can I ask a specific support for all claims?
Thank you so much. 

It would be my pleasure!  I wrote and collected my notes last night and today am not feeling so well.  In the next few days, Lord willing, I'll write it out and post it here for you both.

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“From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.” – Luke 11:51

 

Jesus was referring to the books of Genesis through 2nd Chronicles which is the last book of the Hebrew bible.  He was saying that the scribes’ guilt was recorded from the beginning to the end of the Hebrew scriptures, omitting the Apocrypha, which did exist at the time.

 

Outside of the bible, Josephus around A.D. 95 referenced that the Hebrew scriptures were completed around the time of Ezra in the 5th Century B.C. and contained all 39 books just as our Old Testament does.

 

“And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:” – John 10:4-5,27

 

“Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.” – John 16:13-15

 

“But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.” – 1 Corinthians 13:10

 

“For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.” – 1Thessalonians 2:13

 

“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” – 2 Timothy 3:15-17

 

“Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.” James 1:21

 

“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:21

 

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.” – Jude 3

 

“For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.” - Revelation 22:18-19

 

These verses speak for themselves.  Ask yourselves this question, how can a man alive during the days of the 12 Apostles be thoroughly furnished unto all good works, able to learn all doctrine, to reprove, to correct and instruct in righteousness if he has to wait around hundreds of years for the Catholic Church to give him a book to learn all of it?

 

            The verses in Revelations attest that the bible is complete, no man shall add to it or take away from it.  The God that spake the universe into existence surely saw to the Holy Bible’s completion and preservation without help from the papists.

 

            Outside of the bible, men such as Irenaeus (125-192), made 1,800 quotations from the New Testament in his writings and only acknowledge the four gospels as scripture.  Clement of Alexandria (150-217) called the books “divine scriptures” and also quoted from the four gospels and most of the other books of the New Testament in his writings.  Tertullian (150-220) made over 7,000 references to the New Testament and referred to them as scripture as well.

           

            The Latin Itala translation was made in the 2nd century and contains all the books of today’s New Testament.  In 1740 at the Ambrosian Library in Milan Italy, a list dating to the later half of the 2nd century contained all the books of the New Testament.

 

            So many overlook and ignore the work of the Holy Spirit in writing and circulating God’s Word!

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Another fact, that can be clearly discovered, is that as early as the middle to the end of the second century, before there was a Catholic church to canonize anything, the entire New testament scriptures, all the books, without an Apocrypha, had already been translated in full into Syricak and Itala, and was being translated into other languages. This tells us that it was complete and recgnized as such well before the Nicea council did anything.

As far as i can tell, the point of what the Council did, was to clear up the confusion being made by the many so-called 'Gnostic' books that were popping up in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, that claimed authorship by the Apostles and those close to them-I believe the point of the coincil was to determine, through all these book, which were truly scripture and which were false. All they ultimately did was to recognize the scriptures already being used, as the canon of scripture. Everyone else alr4eady had-the waters were just muddied by the false writings claiming authenticity.

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14 hours ago, swathdiver said:

These verses speak for themselves.  Ask yourselves this question, how can a man alive during the days of the 12 Apostles be thoroughly furnished unto all good works, able to learn all doctrine, to reprove, to correct and instruct in righteousness if he has to wait around hundreds of years for the Catholic Church to give him a book to learn all of it?

 I totally agree with the scripture and thus omitted it. The only thing I would like to point out is that God can use reprobates and those with divisive goals to complete His will.

            The verses in Revelations attest that the bible is complete, no man shall add to it or take away from it.  The God that spake the universe into existence surely saw to the Holy Bible’s completion and preservation without help from the papists.

 Or the God that spoke the universe into existence is also able to use the papists confounding their wrongful purposes and that right before their very eyes.

            Outside of the bible, men such as Irenaeus (125-192), made 1,800 quotations from the New Testament in his writings and only acknowledge the four gospels as scripture.  Clement of Alexandria (150-217) called the books “divine scriptures” and also quoted from the four gospels and most of the other books of the New Testament in his writings.  Tertullian (150-220) made over 7,000 references to the New Testament and referred to them as scripture as well.

 I never studied this out before thanks.

            The Latin Itala translation was made in the 2nd century and contains all the books of today’s New Testament.  In 1740 at the Ambrosian Library in Milan Italy, a list dating to the later half of the 2nd century contained all the books of the New Testament.

 

            So many overlook and ignore the work of the Holy Spirit in writing and circulating God’s Word!

I like everything you put forward as proof. I just wanted to mention if God wanted to use the Roman Church for preservation of His word He could.

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11 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

Yes, you fellas are right, the Lord has and does use his enemies for His glory!

I'll try to repost on Antioch tomorrow after re-writing it.  Maybe a word or phrase is causing the error?

swath, you brought out some things I'd never thought about. Thank you my friend.

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10 hours ago, swathdiver said:

Yes, you fellas are right, the Lord has and does use his enemies for His glory!

I'll try to repost on Antioch tomorrow after re-writing it.  Maybe a word or phrase is causing the error?

I have also had this happen with posts Swath. It is very frustrating. I have even spent hours rewriting and shortening posts so that the forum would accept it. I find that there may be two factors contributing to this problem. One is formatting in any copy and paste, the other is a post that is too long because of multiple quotes from other members included in my post or reply.

Ultimately the only way I could make a long post work is to shorten it and break it into numerous different replies. Sorry I can't fix this problem, It must have something to  do with the actual forum software, which is coded by Invision Power Services, Inc. They only give administrators and board owners limited ability to make changes.

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On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 6:50 PM, swathdiver said:

            Outside of the bible, men such as Irenaeus (125-192), made 1,800 quotations from the New Testament in his writings and only acknowledge the four gospels as scripture.  Clement of Alexandria (150-217) called the books “divine scriptures” and also quoted from the four gospels and most of the other books of the New Testament in his writings.  Tertullian (150-220) made over 7,000 references to the New Testament and referred to them as scripture as well.

          

Hello.

I saw another article somewhere online mentioning these people.
Some catholics claim that  these people are Catholics. "Early Fathers" or something.

How do we know what they believed and what they practice back in those days?
The thing is, I have no idea who they are unless I will google them.

Are they important?

My point is not to spark debates okay. I seriously want to know. I can't defend this part right here.
How do I know that these "people" followed the early Christians who were taught directly by Christ and His apostles?

I believe being able to defend the bible is ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS.

I do believe that God promised to preserve His word and that the Bible we have now is indeed the word of God.
I don't really need explanations. But how can I defend it?

I mean, apart from the people mentioned in the scriptures, how can we know those who claim this and this and that book is included should be trusted?
Is my point clear? HAHA.

I apologize.
There is something I'm not getting

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19 hours ago, CelinaCelinaCelina said:

Hello.

I saw another article somewhere online mentioning these people.
Some catholics claim that  these people are Catholics. "Early Fathers" or something.

How do we know what they believed and what they practice back in those days?
The thing is, I have no idea who they are unless I will google them.

Are they important?

My point is not to spark debates okay. I seriously want to know. I can't defend this part right here.
How do I know that these "people" followed the early Christians who were taught directly by Christ and His apostles?

I believe being able to defend the bible is ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS.

I do believe that God promised to preserve His word and that the Bible we have now is indeed the word of God.
I don't really need explanations. But how can I defend it?

I mean, apart from the people mentioned in the scriptures, how can we know those who claim this and this and that book is included should be trusted?
Is my point clear? HAHA.

I apologize.
There is something I'm not getting

Have you looked at the OT references to God's Word (particularly with reference to Christ) and then looked at Jesus Christ's confirmation (by use) of these OT scriptures? I do not believe God's own Son would allow the kind of misrepresentation you are saying would be objected to by non-believers. What it comes down to in your particular case is scripture in the NT...

Faith... Hebrews 11:6 . God would not leave us without truth about Himself... Isaiah 40:8 and 1 Peter 1:24 .  Finally our Lord's testimony Matthew 24:35 . John 5:39  "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." We know that Christ confirmed the OT by quotation on so many occasions and we know the OT was preserved by the Jews.

You may never be able to convince a willful nonbeliever so leave them with something like Torrey recommended...
"Give a pointed passage of scripture and let it talk for itself and then allow them time to reflect upon it. Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Prov. 29:1 “He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.""

Edited by 1Timothy115

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On ‎7‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 10:58 AM, 1Timothy115 said:

Have you looked at the OT references to God's Word (particularly with reference to Christ) and then looked at Jesus Christ's confirmation (by use) of these OT scriptures? I do not believe God's own Son would allow the kind of misrepresentation you are saying would be objected to by non-believers. What it comes down to in your particular case is scripture in the NT...

Faith... Hebrews 11:6 . God would not leave us without truth about Himself... Isaiah 40:8 and 1 Peter 1:24 .  Finally our Lord's testimony Matthew 24:35John 5:39  "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." We know that Christ confirmed the OT by quotation on so many occasions and we know the OT was preserved by the Jews.

You may never be able to convince a willful nonbeliever so leave them with something like Torrey recommended...
"Give a pointed passage of scripture and let it talk for itself and then allow them time to reflect upon it. Mark 16:16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” Prov. 29:1 “He, that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy.""

I am amazed just how you will confirm scripture by scripture. I find it joy whenever I see a verse and I'll be able to refer it to somewhere in the OT or vice versa.
This is how I believe that these books are from God because there is no way man can ever do such a thing."

My objective is to be able to explain to non-believers how reliable the bible is.

Isn't it important to win souls for Christ too? And I do understand that those people (who will believe the gospel) will have faith in God when He promised to preserve His word., but I want to have compassion to those who see things differently and want to "confirm" things.

I do not doubt that the bible we have now is the word of God.
Though I have to admit, in times of solitude, whenever I contemplate about my life, sometimes, I doubt everything I know. And I am ashamed for having those thoughts. I wish my faith is always strong.

I live in a country full of Catholics. And I have encountered those people who are open to discuss the bible. Most of these people don't care. They don't read their bibles and they don't really want to know. I just want to be able to defend the bible to non-believers is all.

I am the kind of person who will not believe something unless I research about it first. Like I need to prove it myself first.
I can analyze things intellectually and Praise God that He removed the scales from my eyes to see the amazing news of the gospel.

Romans 1:22

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

1 Cor 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

I wish I was clear as to my question though. :/
But I do appreciate your inputs.

Thank you very much.

 

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11 hours ago, CelinaCelinaCelina said:

How can we prove this?
 

The Catholic Church  developed from the time of Constantine.  From that time pope after pope added things to their teaching.  If you can find a copy in a library, try looking at Plantina's list of the popes. (Not sure if that is the correct title, but something like that.)   he says how one pope added something to the doctrine, and the next something else, and the next, etc.  All very slow and gradual.  And subtle.  Reminds me of a book someone sent me by Terry Virgo, hoe he introduced charismatic teaching into his church.  He started a separate study with one family on a separate evening from the usual bible study, then when they we indoctrinated ha added a few others, then a few more, very gradual and subtle..  Gen 3:1 ¶  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

The early writers were mostly before Constantine, but that doesn't mean that they were all 100% sound, none of them were anymore than anyone is today.  Elliott says that when Constantine arrived you would have found a simple gospel service, but in 50 years the churches were full of flowers and incense.  

 

Edited by Invicta

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On 7/5/2017 at 0:02 AM, CelinaCelinaCelina said:

Hello.

I saw another article somewhere online mentioning these people.
Some catholics claim that  these people are Catholics. "Early Fathers" or something.

How do we know what they believed and what they practice back in those days?
The thing is, I have no idea who they are unless I will google them.

Are they important?

My point is not to spark debates okay. I seriously want to know. I can't defend this part right here.
How do I know that these "people" followed the early Christians who were taught directly by Christ and His apostles?

I believe being able to defend the bible is ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS.

I do believe that God promised to preserve His word and that the Bible we have now is indeed the word of God.
I don't really need explanations. But how can I defend it?

I mean, apart from the people mentioned in the scriptures, how can we know those who claim this and this and that book is included should be trusted?
Is my point clear? HAHA.

I apologize.
There is something I'm not getting

In the context of my post to you, that they quoted from the Old and New Testaments, no, it is not important what they believed.  The fact is they quoted from the bible, knew of all 66 books long before the Catholic Church came into being.

It is good to know the history of the bible and the bible itself.  However, you will never convince a lost person, especially a militant Catholic, that they are wrong by going tit for tat with facts.  You can win every time and not sway their opinion.  Do you know why?  Because you are trying to get the truth to their brain through logic.  These are spiritually blind people.  They cannot understand the scriptures the way a Christian does as they do not have eyes to see with; nor the Holy Spirit to guide them in the truth!  The proper way to witness is to bypass their brains and go straight for their hearts!  Know how I know?  Why, the bible tells me so...

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts..." - Romans 2:14-15

“Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” - Romans 3:20

“For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.” - Romans 10:10

Having said all of this, you can break a leg on their stool of belief for those hardened ones.  Break one leg and their belief system becomes unstable.  Break two and they'll fall down.  Pick any of the verses posted in this thread and use it on those poor Catholics to break the legs of their stool.  Then, maybe, they might be more receptive to that glorious gospel of truth.

Please also read and hide in your heart Ma'am, Galatians 3.  

Once a person realizes that he has broken the Ten Commandments and is guilty before God, deserving of hell, then will you have bypassed his brain and brought the truth to his heart.  The Holy Spirit can then wrought his work and the poor sinner will then choose to keep living like the devil or to surrender his life to Christ and make repentance to God.

 

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