Is the KJVO "movement" dying?

[Pastorj 280]

15 hours ago, DaveW said:

You keep saying that "IFB churches are dying". 

I know there are churches closing and opening all the time, but the reason some IFB churches are dying is more often than not laziness on the part of Pastors, or scandal of some sort.

But in reality, IFB churches are not dying. Not generally.

In fact, in my area we are seeing more and more people turn from rock n roll compromise churches and looking for KJV, Bible preaching, hymn singing churches.

I guess I just don't agree with the generalisation.....

 

DaveW - The topic of this thread is "Is the KJVO Movement dying". Since this is tied to IFB, I have added that I believe IFB churches are dying for a number of reasons.

1. In the Bible belt where there are 100's of churches and unfortunately the vast majority either no longer or never preached the Word of God, I count those dead. They may have lots of people, but when God's Word is not faithfully preached, the church has no value.
2. The majority of churches that do preach the Word of God have no life in them. Though the preaching is good, the people don't care. They don't care about visitors, they don't respond to the preaching, the church is just withering away. In 20 years, everyone will have passed and the church will be gone.

Now, I know that is a lot of generalization, but the reality is that the number of good churches has declined significantly in the last 20 years. For every 1 church that opens its doors, 10 churches close and that was in 2007.

How do we prevent this from happening
1. Pastors need to stop the entertaining speeches and get back to Preaching the Word of God. It is the Word of God that impacts lives.
2. People need to stop being self centered and start caring about other Christians and the lost.

Churches need to get back to being churches instead of being Sunday entertainment.

 

 

[Pastorj 280]

9 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

can you distinguish between the two and explain each position?

KJVO - King James Version Only - This position holds to the KJV being the Inspired Word of God, either through Preservation (Biblical) or through re-inspiration (Ruckmanite - Not Biblical)
1. A KJVO individual believes that the KJV is the only version that English speaking individuals should ever use. They reject all modern translations and any future modern translations.
2. Extremists in this position will also say that the KJV should be used to translate the Bible into other languages.
3. Even further to the extreme, there are some in this camp that believe that if you are not saved from a KJV, they you are not saved as the KJV is the only version which is the Word of God and saves people.

OKJV - Only King James Version - This position also holds to the KJV being the inspired Word of God, but would completely reject the Ruckmanite position of re-inspiration.
1. The KJV is inspired through Preservation as promised in Scripture. Inspiration was only in the original manuscripts, but the KJV can be considered the "Inspired Word of God" because of Preservation
2. The OKJV individual is open to a future modern translation as long as that translation meets the same criteria of the KJV. (Probably never going to happen, but they are open to it). The reason it won't happen is because those that are qualified to actually do the translation are not willing and those that are willing, are not capable.

Though the average KJVO and OKJV are basically the same in their position, the willingness for God to continue his preservation in a new translation is not acceptable to the KJVO group.

 

[Pastor Scott Markle 2,782]

2 hours ago, Pastorj said:

KJVO - King James Version Only - This position holds to the KJV being the Inspired Word of God, either through Preservation (Biblical) or through re-inspiration (Ruckmanite - Not Biblical)
1. A KJVO individual believes that the KJV is the only version that English speaking individuals should ever use. They reject all modern translations and any future modern translations.
2. Extremists in this position will also say that the KJV should be used to translate the Bible into other languages.
3. Even further to the extreme, there are some in this camp that believe that if you are not saved from a KJV, they you are not saved as the KJV is the only version which is the Word of God and saves people.

OKJV - Only King James Version - This position also holds to the KJV being the inspired Word of God, but would completely reject the Ruckmanite position of re-inspiration.
1. The KJV is inspired through Preservation as promised in Scripture. Inspiration was only in the original manuscripts, but the KJV can be considered the "Inspired Word of God" because of Preservation
2. The OKJV individual is open to a future modern translation as long as that translation meets the same criteria of the KJV. (Probably never going to happen, but they are open to it). The reason it won't happen is because those that are qualified to actually do the translation are not willing and those that are willing, are not capable.

Though the average KJVO and OKJV are basically the same in their position, the willingness for God to continue his preservation in a new translation is not acceptable to the KJVO group.

Another difference between the KJVO position and the OKJV position would be their differing viewpoint concerning Bible study through the use of the original languages, Hebrew and Greek.  Those of the KJVO position would view it as a major negative (maybe even, a sinful negative); those of the OKJV position would view it as a useful positive.

In addition, those of the OKJV position will often indicate that what they really are is MTO (Massoretic Text Only) for the Hebrew of the Old Testament & TRO (Textus Receptus Only; Received Text Only) for the Greek of the New Testament.  

Edited January 3, 2018 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Pastorj 280]

Pastor Markle - You are absolutely correct.

[swathdiver 1,758]

Pastorj, I am not suggesting you settle at all.  I am suggesting that if the Holy Spirit leads you to that church, unite with it.  Your gifts and influence may change the ways of the preacher or lead to a change in who stands in the pulpit.  Again, this is the work of the Holy Ghost through the hearts of submissive and humbled men.  

[Pastorj 280]

On ‎1‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 10:38 AM, swathdiver said:

Pastorj, I am not suggesting you settle at all.  I am suggesting that if the Holy Spirit leads you to that church, unite with it.  Your gifts and influence may change the ways of the preacher or lead to a change in who stands in the pulpit.  Again, this is the work of the Holy Ghost through the hearts of submissive and humbled men.  

swathdriver - I did not intend to argue about this with you, but this is unfortunately the mentality that has gotten our IFB churches to where they are today. The Holy Spirit would never lead any Christian to a church where there is no preaching,. The vast majority of Christians are not being led by the Holy Spirit, they are being led by their emotions and entertainment value. They go to a church and leave happy so that must mean the Holy Spirit is leading them there. Christians should go to church to be edified, reproved and rebuked by the Word of God. If the Word of God is not preached, all you did was get entertained.

My gifts and influence will not change the ways of a "yeller or story teller". I will not refer to them as preachers as they do not "Preach".

People need to hold the Pastor to a Biblical level and mandate that he "Preaches". It's a sad state of America that we are missing this in our churches.

[weary warrior 554]

I do believe that the KJO "movement" is dying, but I'm OK with that. The KJV was around centuries before there was ever a "movement", and will be here long after the movement is over. A movement is spearheaded by men following men. And what men lead other men into, they can lead them out of. I suspect that when we get to heaven, God's opinion of the shadow cast by some of the IFB "greats" will not be quite as high as their own opinion of themselves. John the Baptist said "He must increase, but I must decrease". I've watched these men do nothing but increase for decades, until they crashed one-by-one, ruining their testimonies, as well as the testimony of their "movement". Some 100 -odd years of Icarus flying too close too the sun on wings held together by the wax of personality. It melted. Now we're falling from the sky.

We have spent decades sending our best and brightest to these centralized "institutions of higher learning" established and run by egomaniacs and carnal showmen, and failed to do our duty as a local church and train up our own, as commanded by II Timothy 2:2. So we now have a full 2 generations of "pastors" in this country who are the ignorant, carnal product of our own lazy, irresponsibility.

The answer? The few real, godly, veteran pastors that are left must start taking their own young preachers under their own wing, and lead them at home by example in weeping, working, loving, studying, preaching, praying and living right. Pastoring is about nights on our knees, not neckties around our necks. It's about working hard on sermons, not waxing eloquent on social ills. It's sacrifice, not salaries. Humility instead of haughtiness. Building faith, not getting fat.

We call ourselves "Christian". "Followers of Christ". Well, Christ was poor, humble, loving and forgiving while still preaching hard truth. He was hard working and invested in his disciples on a 24-hour-a-day, personal, sacrificial basis. We, the IFB "movement" left following Christ and began following men who named Christ, but followed themselves. 

I'm 50 years old. I was born to an IFB preacher, and raised in it my whole life. 3 of my uncles were IFB preachers. My dad graduated under DR Tom Malone at Northwestern in 1972. I was ordained in 1998 as an IFB preacher, and have preached in IFB churches across the US and in a number of foreign countries. I am heartsick at the condition of the church today as a whole. We have to stop doing what got us in this mess in the first place, and start accepting our responsibility to replace ourselves, (Matthew 28:18-20, II Timothy 2:2 etc.), while making sure daily we are even worth replacing.

[Jim_Alaska 2,343]

WW is right on the mark and echos what I have said on this forum many times. To me there is no substitute for local churches training the men who have been called to preach in that same church.

To send  our future preachers off to bible colleges where they will be exposed to and encouraged in lazy preaching practices, not taught proper study methods, exposed to worldly musical standards  and easy believism is a recipe for disaster. This will ensure that future IFB churches will continue to follow the easy path of modern day Laodicean  practices.

Many, if not most, of the colleges today are turning out graduates that are ill equipped to pastor and many are hardly even grounded in  Baptist Church Polity and doctrine. This is hardly the way to  follow the Apostle Paul's exhortation to:  2Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 
 Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; 
 8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; 
 9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

I fear for the future IFB churches that will call unprepared and unqualified men to pastor their churches. I do understand that Jesus has assured us that the gates of hell will not prevail against His church, but am greatly concerned for the spiritual condition of future individual churches that will have to deal with men that are not properly trained and don't even know it.

[Pastorj 280]

Weary Warrior - You are absolutely correct. Churches stopped training young men and started relying on schools like BJU, PCC, Crown and a few others. Though I like these institutions, they do not train young men to pastor churches. The young men come out completely clueless and usually have no basis of the Bible. I encourage young men to go to "Preacher Schools" like New England Baptist College, or other church run schools out there.

Independent Baptist Churches need to get back to what made them - The Word of God!

[wretched 797]

I think the problem is much more basic and systemic than this. Never mind the perceived state of these institutions because none are Scriptural.

The entire practice of higher learning institutions in which "young" men are trained to "pastor other" churches came from the RCC and later mimicked by protestant denominations. Not one jot nor tittle is Scriptural IMO.

 

 

 

 

[PastorMatt 1,094]

Right now, there are more KJV Churches in Connecticut than when I was a kid. I'm not saying that they are all good Churches, but there does seem to be a surge in KJV Churches in New England.

[Ukulelemike 3,782]

I just preached last Sunday, (yesterday) on the subject of contending for the faith, and much of what is being discussed here goes right along with it.

Churches are dying, spiritually, because many churches don't contend for the faith. The reason we are told to contend, is because men creep in unawares and begin to change things, turning grace into lasciviousness, which can refer to sexual or spiritual promiscuity-and there is no shortage of either in many churches. The people miss when a wolf enters, wearing the garb of the sheep, and begin to gain trust, then change things. Soon the good IFB, KJV-preaching, God-loving, truth-preaching hymn-singing churches have a plethora of versions, rock and roll "worship" and are bringing any old heretic in who claims Christ, to teach and preach.

Contending must be an active, continual thing, with the eye always firmly on the Lord and His perfect word. A church needs to stop depending on the pastor to hold it together, and start demanding he preach truth and stay the course, or toss him and bring in someone who will.

Godly preachers need to contend by training up young men and women who will be the next generation, men who will be the next leaders, the next preacher, not toss them off to universities and other churches to be lost from them. No, raise them up in truth and then, when the preacher can no longer do the job, you already know what the next pastor will teach, because they have been raised up and fed on the best home-grown food. It is a constant, continual to fight, against men and devils, to maintain the truth and purity of a local church. And we teach those coming up to fight and contend, as well, so they will teach the next after them, ad so on, til Christ returns.

[Pastorj 280]

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 7:49 PM, BroMatt said:

Right now, there are more KJV Churches in Connecticut than when I was a kid. I'm not saying that they are all good Churches, but there does seem to be a surge in KJV Churches in New England.

Matt,

You are correct about New England, but I will tell you the Bible Belt is dying fast. in a 30 mile radius of my home, there are about 100 Independent Baptist Churches and I would say that 1 or 2 preach the Word of God and neither of them are "Alive'

Winston Salem was the same way. Over 100 IFB churches and I can count on 1 hand the number of churches that are not dead.

There are more good churches in CT, than there are around me.

[PastorMatt 1,094]

That's sad PastorJ. We're not gaining any ground in this country by opening new Churches to only lose existing ones.

[Baptistsenior 23]

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 1:00 AM, Gorship said:

I ask this for your opinions, thoughts, and insights.

 

I sometimes post on another board and (hopefully its ok) I would like to link a thread that is going on over there. NOT so that we can all march over there and say "huzzah! you're wrong!" but rather I would like to have this discussion on here. I will probably be starting another thread I would like to get some more opinions on that is in tandem to this thread but worthy of a secondary set of thought patterns.

 

Without futher ado this is the link:

Click me! 

So the thread there is pretty simple: 

Apparently DBS is "Fractured" due to Riplingers divorces (although Dean burgeon has been a TR-Only group not  KJVO group but anyway)
Ruckman has passed away
Steven Anderson is a menace (which I don't disagree with)
Etc..

Do you see the KJB issue still in full force or not?
 

Just a novice here, but I would not call the KJVO a movement, it has been the foundational Bible  long before the  other existing versions.  

[2Tim215 104]

Haven't been on here in years but I can tell you from an outside perspective (foreign) that the constant in fighting, slandering, and arrogance of most IFB pastors is what is killing the KJB only to a certain degree.

 

[John Young 635]

45 minutes ago, 2Tim215 said:

... constant in fighting, slandering, and arrogance of most IFB pastors is what is killing the KJB only to a certain degree.

 

I would say that the majority of IFB pastors are actually humbly and quietly working and serving in their local areas and are mostly model Christians (There are over 6,000 IFB preachers in America). Its the very few public, limelight teachers (many not even pasotrs or IFB) that spread most of the contention that I have seen which give that impression to the masses who see their bad spirit. And conversely the same attitude in those of the Non-KJB limlight teachers do not help matters any.

Edited December 26, 2018 by John Young

[2Tim215 104]

7 minutes ago, John Young said:

I would say that the majority of IFB pastors are actually humbly and quietly working and serving in their local areas and are mostly model Christians (There are over 6,000 IFB preachers in America). Its the very few public, limelight teachers (many not even pasotrs or IFB) that spread most of the contention that I have seen which give that impression to the masses who see their bad spirit. And conversely the same attitude in those of the Non-KJB limlight teachers do not help matters any.

Sadly for us who do not reside in the States where the KJB and IFB are strong we only see those in the limelight and on the web and I must say that it doesn't paint a pretty picture. I am blessed though that I have enough understanding and knowledge now that I can ignore it and sift through for what I need. So far I have only found one consistent online preacher who does not play that game.

[Alan 3,468]

20 minutes ago, John Young said:

I would say that the majority of IFB pastors are actually humbly and quietly working and serving in their local areas and are mostly model Christians (There are over 6,000 IFB preachers in America). Its the very few public, limelight teachers (many not even pasotrs or IFB) that spread most of the contention that I have seen which give that impression to the masses who see their bad spirit. And conversely the same attitude in those of the Non-KJB limlight teachers do not help matters any.

I agree with John Young. There are still a lot of humble IFB pastors, working hard, feeding the flock, working in the limelight, serving the Lord, have not compromised, and are staying faithful. 

 

[2Tim215 104]

Just now, Alan said:

I agree with John Young. There are still a lot of humble IFB pastors, working hard, feeding the flock, working in the limelight, serving the Lord, have not compromised, and are staying faithful. 

 

Mind messaging me a few names that I can check out?

[Alan 3,468]

15 minutes ago, 2Tim215 said:

Mind messaging me a few names that I can check out?

I was just about to leave when I noticed this. As I know you are in South Africa I will have to send you some with a church website. Most of the smaller churches do not have a website so I will have to find some of the larger churches that have a website. Tomorrow morning I will send you a private message with some men.

Off the top of my head, here on OnLineBaptist, John Young  is a pastor of a smaller church that has some sermons that he uploaded onto OnLineBaptist, Pastor Scott Markle has a website with a lot of fine sermons you can download and books that he has on his church website, Matt (the owner of OnLineBaptist), has a church website, Jim Alaska has a link to his home church, Old Fashioned Preacher (although on furlough) his old church in Kansas has a church website, Salyan's home church has a church website with some fine sermons that I have downloaded.

I am sure that I have missed some as I am pressed for time right now.

[2Tim215 104]

2 minutes ago, Alan said:

I was just about to leave when I noticed this. As I know you are in South Africa I will have to send you some with a church website. Most of the smaller churches do not have a website so I will have to find some of the larger churches that have a website. Tomorrow morning I will send you a private message with some men.

Off the top of my head, here on OnLineBaptist, John Young  is a pastor of a smaller church that has some sermons that he uploaded onto OnLineBaptist, Pastor Scott Markle has a website with a lot of fine sermons you can download and books that he has on his church website, Matt (the owner of OnLineBaptist), has a church website, Jim Alaska has a link to his home church, Old Fashioned Preacher (although on furlough) his old church in Kansas has a church website, Salyan's home church has a church website with some fine sermons that I have downloaded.

I am sure that I have missed some as I am pressed for time right now.

Thanks Alan. Will check these out. Appreciate it

[OLD fashioned preacher 1,486]

8 minutes ago, Alan said:

, Old Fashioned Preacher (although on furlough) his old church in Kansas has a church website,

40 years preaching and I doubt any more than 6 of my sermons have ever been recorded, so you won't find any available from me.

Also, the website no longer exists (plus we didn't have any services recorded on there)

Sorry

[Pastor Scott Markle 2,782]

Since Brother Alan specifically mentioned me, I will present the information for the website of the church over which the Holy Spirit has called me to pastor.  To be clear - I pastor a small country church in a small village within the Thumb area of Michigan, nothing of popular importance.

www.melvinbaptistchurch.com 

(Note: I struggled a bit with presenting this information because I do not desire to push myself forward in any manner.  Please receive this information in the spirit with which it was delivered.)

[Alan 3,468]

1. Pastor Ron Thomas, Rodges Baptist Church, Garland, TX, is a larger church that  love the Lord and has stayed true to the faith once delivered to the saints. They are able to have an extensive website with an extensive  audio and YouTube ministry to help those  who desire to listen to a good ministry over the internet.

Here is the link to their media ministry: http://www.rodgersbaptist.net/media/

2. The "Gospel Web," created by missionary James Dearmore, is a more extensive ministry with written articles concerning many different subjects, sermons, and issues. He also has a link to other fine IFB churches and ministries. 

Here is the link to the Gospel Web: http://www.gospelweb.net/mainindex.htm

As brother John Young and Old Fashioned Preacher mentioned, there are a lot of fine IFB churches still in America today. So often they are in the limelight. In fact, even some of the bigger ones like Rodgers Baptist Chruch are relatively unknown due to the fact they have a good spirit about their ministry, they do not create controversial issues to attract attention, they have not compromised the doctrines of the scriptures, they believe and practice in soul winning, are strong KJV, and have a sincere love for people.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Alan
grammar (2) link

[Jim_Alaska 2,343]

Thank you for mentioning Rodgers Baptist Church bro. Alan. This was the sending church for the mission work in Alaska that became the church I was saved in. I have always wondered why this church and its pastor have not got more mention on Online Baptist. They are a well known church and responsible for many missionary plantings.

The late bro. James Dearmore was a missionary to Africa out of this church for many productive years, he was also a dear, personal friend of mine.

[2Tim215 104]

6 hours ago, Alan said:

1. Pastor Ron Thomas, Rodges Baptist Church, Garland, TX, is a larger church that  love the Lord and has stayed true to the faith once delivered to the saints. They are able to have an extensive website with an extensive  audio and YouTube ministry to help those  who desire to listen to a good ministry over the internet.

Here is the link to their media ministry: http://www.rodgersbaptist.net/media/

2. The "Gospel Web," created by missionary James Dearmore, is a more extensive ministry with written articles concerning many different subjects, sermons, and issues. He also has a link to other fine IFB churches and ministries. 

Here is the link to the Gospel Web: http://www.gospelweb.net/mainindex.htm

As brother John Young and Old Fashioned Preacher mentioned, there are a lot of fine IFB churches still in America today. So often they are in the limelight. In fact, even some of the bigger ones like Rodgers Baptist Chruch are relatively unknown due to the fact they have a good spirit about their ministry, they do not create controversial issues to attract attention, they have not compromised the doctrines of the scriptures, they believe and practice in soul winning, are strong KJV, and have a sincere love for people.

Thanks Alan, appreciate it. I have never heard of any of these that you have mentioned. Will definitely look into these. My home church is 1000 kms away so and my wife and I are probably the only KJB believers in our town. Though I tell the truth to anyone who will listen none do these days

 

14 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Since Brother Alan specifically mentioned me, I will present the information for the website of the church over which the Holy Spirit has called me to pastor.  To be clear - I pastor a small country church in a small village within the Thumb area of Michigan, nothing of popular importance.

www.melvinbaptistchurch.com 

(Note: I struggled a bit with presenting this information because I do not desire to push myself forward in any manner.  Please receive this information in the spirit with which it was delivered.)

Appreciate your candor Brother Scott

[Baptist_Bible_Believer 86]

I have used the signature on some of those Bible corrector websites, and got some pretty good responses from people that are confused but looking for the right answers.

What do Bible correctors and Mormons have in common?
Article #8 of the Mormon Articles of Faith:
"We believe the Bible to be the Word of God in so far as it is translated correctly."

 

[2Tim215 104]

On 12/26/2018 at 5:07 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Since Brother Alan specifically mentioned me, I will present the information for the website of the church over which the Holy Spirit has called me to pastor.  To be clear - I pastor a small country church in a small village within the Thumb area of Michigan, nothing of popular importance.

www.melvinbaptistchurch.com 

(Note: I struggled a bit with presenting this information because I do not desire to push myself forward in any manner.  Please receive this information in the spirit with which it was delivered.)

Listened to some of your sermons yesterday. Such a blessing. Thank you