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Is the KJVO "movement" dying?

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
On 12/22/2017 at 9:34 AM, Pastorj said:

 

There are 100 IFB churches in a 30 min radius of me. None preach the Word of God. Most use the KJV when they use Scripture, but that is far from what good churches were 30 years ago.

I find this interesting, especially in North Carolina (Virginia native here). However, imagine our surprise to find a real, bible-preaching, bible-believing, soulwinning church in "sin city" of all places. My husband and I left the "hippy-skippy" feel-good, NIV (among others) using "megachurch". The Lord led my husband to think about where we attend church right at a year ago now. A year ago, we were still pretty lost, not connected to a community, spiritually comatose. One year later, we are connected, spiritually alive, my husband is saved. Don't ever doubt what God can do...ever! If someone had told me this would happen, I'd have told them they were clear out of their minds. 

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On ‎12‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 8:13 AM, swathdiver said:

Last May my children and I had the pleasure of meeting with the saints and hearing the Word faithfully preached at Berean Baptist Church over in Winston-Salem, not too far from you.  

I have not visited Berean. We visited over 50 churches in Winston, but that one was south of where we lived at the time.

On ‎12‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 2:48 AM, Saved41199 said:

I find this interesting, especially in North Carolina (Virginia native here).

I have been shocked since moving to NC in 2010. A lot of the churches follow what I call "Camp style" preaching. This style has no substance and rarely opens the Bible. When they do, it is just to grab a verse that sounds good, but is almost always taken out of context.

Much of what is said is not "Unbiblical", but it does not meat Paul's definition of Preaching. Preaching must include "The Word".

A perfect example was this last Sunday. The pastor spoke about Christmas for 40 minutes. Nothing he said was wrong. But he quoted 1 verse and the passage he used did not support the 4 points he had. I am completely disgusted with what I have found for preaching in NC.

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I would say I don't believe it, but knowing what it's like to starve to death going to church every Sunday...I do believe it. Might be why I'm in favor of a solid seminary education for a preacher before he starts preaching and attempting to feed the flock. Those poor folks are starving to death and don't even know it. (in the interest of full disclosure, I have one more elective class to take to finally finish my degree in Biblical Studies from Liberty University). 

It isn't easy to find a church that "serves a full meal" every Sunday. At our church, Sunday morning is like "brunch"...on the light side but satisfying. Sunday night is "dinner"...a full meal, may feel a little queasy after "eating" so much. Wednesday night is "supper"...maybe not as filling as dinner but takes care of the hunger but good until Sunday morning. 

These were listed in Statesville from http://fundamental.org/fundamental/churches/index.php3?action=listchurchesinstate&statename=North Carolina

Calvary Baptist Church Dr. Chris Haizlip Statesville
Southview Baptist Church Walter Wagner Statesville
Elmwood First Baptist Rodney G. McAllister Statesville
Harvest Baptist Church Dr. Donald Gant Statesville
Command Baptist C hurch Tony Fox Statesville
Temple Baptist Church Randall Mitchell Statesville

These were listed in Winston Salem

Berean Baptist Church Dr. Ronnie Baity Winston Salem
Woodland Baptist Church 336-969-2088 Winston Salem
Lexwin Baptist Church Pastor Erick Goff Winston Salem
Lexwin Baptist Church Pastor Erick Goff Winston Salem
Vernon Forest Baptist Church Pastor Coats Winston-Salem
Missions Baptist Church David Keaton Winston-Salem
Liberty Baptist Church Gary Styers Winston-Salem
Liberty Baptist Church Gary Styers Winston-Salem

 

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12 hours ago, Saved41199 said:

I would say I don't believe it, but knowing what it's like to starve to death going to church every Sunday...I do believe it. Might be why I'm in favor of a solid seminary education for a preacher before he starts preaching and attempting to feed the flock. Those poor folks are starving to death and don't even know it. (in the interest of full disclosure, I have one more elective class to take to finally finish my degree in Biblical Studies from Liberty University). 

It isn't easy to find a church that "serves a full meal" every Sunday. At our church, Sunday morning is like "brunch"...on the light side but satisfying. Sunday night is "dinner"...a full meal, may feel a little queasy after "eating" so much. Wednesday night is "supper"...maybe not as filling as dinner but takes care of the hunger but good until Sunday morning. 

These were listed in Statesville from http://fundamental.org/fundamental/churches/index.php3?action=listchurchesinstate&statename=North Carolina

Calvary Baptist Church Dr. Chris Haizlip Statesville - Camp Style Preaching - One Message preached was entitled Amazing Grace according to Isaac Newton - Preached out of the hymnal
Southview Baptist Church Walter Wagner Statesville - Unfriendliest church in the whole area - Pastor is no longer there. Assistant constantly took passages out of context
Elmwood First Baptist Rodney G. McAllister Statesville - Haven't visited this one as they have no website that I could find.
Harvest Baptist Church Dr. Donald Gant Statesville - Church has 130 people, 100+ from bus ministry.
Command Baptist C hurch Tony Fox Statesville - Never heard of this one
Temple Baptist Church Randall Mitchell Statesville - Street screaming is required of it's members - Much like Peter Ruckman's group in Florida

These were listed in Winston Salem

Berean Baptist Church Dr. Ronnie Baity Winston Salem - I didn't go to this as it was south of us about the same distance as the church we attended.
Woodland Baptist Church 336-969-2088 Winston Salem - Very Liberal church
Lexwin Baptist Church Pastor Erick Goff Winston Salem -
Lexwin Baptist Church Pastor Erick Goff Winston Salem - Never heard of this one.
Vernon Forest Baptist Church Pastor Coats Winston-Salem - I visited this church, but it was 7 years ago. We didn't go back
Missions Baptist Church David Keaton Winston-Salem - I visited this church, but it was 7 years ago. We didn't go back
Liberty Baptist Church Gary Styers Winston-Salem - Visited church a few years ago - Nice church, but messages were camp style
Liberty Baptist Church Gary Styers Winston-Salem

 

I don't agree with your meal analysis of preaching and neither does the Word of God.

Preaching is not a light brunch. Preaching is exposing the Word of God to those that are there so that the Holy Spirit can work in the lives of people. When we serve a light brunch, we are simply trying to entertain people to get them to come back. I have visited churches on Sunday Morning, Night and Wednesday nights and quite frankly what I have heard is either unbiblical, liberal or just a bunch of jokes and stories.

Out of over 100 churches between Statesville and Winston, I can count on 1 hand the number of churches that had Biblical preaching.

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8 hours ago, Pastorj said:

I don't agree with your meal analysis of preaching and neither does the Word of God.

I was trying (and failing) to make an analogy of what our church is like. Sunday morning is often the time we get the most visitors so the sermon isn't quite as "heavy". This is a typical Sunday morning sermon https://www.sermonaudio.com/saplayer/playpopup.asp?SID=111917133539

Sunday night https://www.sermonaudio.com/saplayer/playpopup.asp?SID=115172159229

Wednesday night https://www.sermonaudio.com/saplayer/playpopup.asp?SID=118172217531

They're different sermons geared to the different folks gathered. Sunday morning is a little lighter, Sunday night is a good dinner and Wednesday night is a full supper...Thing is, church isn't supposed to be the only time for the word...there's a certain responsibility for the individual Christian to spend his own time reading/studying/learning. It's not all on the pastor. I can take you to the fanciest buffet here in sin city and if you choose not to eat, there's not a darn thing I can do to force you...same with folks in church. They can go every Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, the preacher can be one of the most serious, his sermons can be a PhD thesis every time and if folks don't want to eat, they won't. I can take you to Pho #2 (not a great restaurant) and if you're hungry enough, you'll find a way to make a meal out of it. Stop putting it all on the preacher...it's not all on him. You can sit, play with your phone, day dream and it doesn't matter how great the sermon is...you won't get a thing out of it. 

My pastor can be quite entertaining...he's funny, he's exuberant while he's preaching, he smiles a lot...are those hallmarks of a crummy preacher? 

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5 hours ago, swathdiver said:

What about the church that hosts the Sword of the Lord conferences?  They are in the northern part of Winston-Salem.  The name escapes me at the moment.

Gospel Light Baptist Church in Walkertown.

They are conservative with good music. The bus ministry overpowers the church 1700 on the buses and only 2500 total attendance.
I love the pastor as a pastor, but his messages are nothing but stories. I call it story time with Bro. Bobby. He makes a great conference speaker, but quite frankly, I haven't heard a "Message" in any visit I have made, which has been many since the church was 2 miles from my house and my kids went to the school.

The assistant is a really good preacher.

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On 12/22/2017 at 10:34 AM, Pastorj said:

I would agree that KJVO and OKJV are both rooted within the IFB churches. The false churches have moved away from the Word of God as Revelation 3 says they would. Church today are about entertainment and feel good, rather than solid Bible Preaching. As IFB churches fall away from the Word of God, they cease being "Good" churches.

There are 100 IFB churches in a 30 min radius of me. None preach the Word of God. Most use the KJV when they use Scripture, but that is far from what good churches were 30 years ago.

 

On 12/26/2017 at 9:52 AM, Pastorj said:

I have not visited Berean. We visited over 50 churches in Winston, but that one was south of where we lived at the time.

I have been shocked since moving to NC in 2010. A lot of the churches follow what I call "Camp style" preaching. This style has no substance and rarely opens the Bible. When they do, it is just to grab a verse that sounds good, but is almost always taken out of context.

Much of what is said is not "Unbiblical", but it does not meat Paul's definition of Preaching. Preaching must include "The Word".

A perfect example was this last Sunday. The pastor spoke about Christmas for 40 minutes. Nothing he said was wrong. But he quoted 1 verse and the passage he used did not support the 4 points he had. I am completely disgusted with what I have found for preaching in NC.

 

On 12/28/2017 at 6:42 AM, Pastorj said:

Gospel Light Baptist Church in Walkertown.

They are conservative with good music. The bus ministry overpowers the church 1700 on the buses and only 2500 total attendance.
I love the pastor as a pastor, but his messages are nothing but stories. I call it story time with Bro. Bobby. He makes a great conference speaker, but quite frankly, I haven't heard a "Message" in any visit I have made, which has been many since the church was 2 miles from my house and my kids went to the school.

The assistant is a really good preacher.

Understand that I'm Southern born and Southern bred --- and when I die I'll be Southern dead!! BUT, far too many Southern IB preachers are cotton candy  preachers -- all fluff, no substance. Southern folk (as a whole) like it that way, unfortunately. Most campmeetings will have messages that the other preachers can shout about. Am I against shouting? Not when it's real. Does shouting make the service more (or less) real? No. Is "putting on the dog" carnal? Yep! There used to be a good campmeeting in Boomer, N.C. but, alas, it is no more.

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OFP - I am not against shouting, but the yelling I hear is not preaching. I have heard great yelling preachers and I love it when the people get excited about good preaching, but I am afraid to say that the lack of good preaching is why IFB churches are dying

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On ‎12‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 12:34 PM, Pastorj said:

I would agree that KJVO and OKJV are both rooted within the IFB churches.

I made this statement early in the discussion wondering if someone would want to discuss. Are you KJVO or OKJV?

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The Holy Spirit burdens our hearts to unite with the right church.  Not only do we learn in and grow in grace but we also contribute to that church, bringing with us special God-given gifts that are a blessing to all the saints, including the pastor.  None of them are perfect of course and will be less so when you unite with one.  If Gospel light is where the Lord wants, you, go there and unite with them.  Learn to love story time with Brother Bobby.  Someday, you may be called to pastor that church but be careful of moving the ancient landmarks.  

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58 minutes ago, swathdiver said:

The Holy Spirit burdens our hearts to unite with the right church.  Not only do we learn in and grow in grace but we also contribute to that church, bringing with us special God-given gifts that are a blessing to all the saints, including the pastor.  None of them are perfect of course and will be less so when you unite with one.  If Gospel light is where the Lord wants, you, go there and unite with them.  Learn to love story time with Brother Bobby.  Someday, you may be called to pastor that church but be careful of moving the ancient landmarks.  

No Christian should settle for "Story Time". It is not preaching, which is what Preachers are called to do.

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swathdriver - Btw, not trying to be critical, but it is this very acceptance of bad preaching that our IFB churches are dying. If I can go to a liberal non-denom church and get better preaching than an IFB church, we have succumbed to the Laodicean Church age.

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1 hour ago, Pastorj said:

swathdriver - Btw, not trying to be critical, but it is this very acceptance of bad preaching that our IFB churches are dying. If I can go to a liberal non-denom church and get better preaching than an IFB church, we have succumbed to the Laodicean Church age.

You keep saying that "IFB churches are dying". 

I know there are churches closing and opening all the time, but the reason some IFB churches are dying is more often than not laziness on the part of Pastors, or scandal of some sort.

But in reality, IFB churches are not dying. Not generally.

In fact, in my area we are seeing more and more people turn from rock n roll compromise churches and looking for KJV, Bible preaching, hymn singing churches.

I guess I just don't agree with the generalisation.....

 

Edited by DaveW
Phone spelling
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15 hours ago, DaveW said:

You keep saying that "IFB churches are dying". 

I know there are churches closing and opening all the time, but the reason some IFB churches are dying is more often than not laziness on the part of Pastors, or scandal of some sort.

But in reality, IFB churches are not dying. Not generally.

In fact, in my area we are seeing more and more people turn from rock n roll compromise churches and looking for KJV, Bible preaching, hymn singing churches.

I guess I just don't agree with the generalisation.....

 

DaveW - The topic of this thread is "Is the KJVO Movement dying". Since this is tied to IFB, I have added that I believe IFB churches are dying for a number of reasons.

1. In the Bible belt where there are 100's of churches and unfortunately the vast majority either no longer or never preached the Word of God, I count those dead. They may have lots of people, but when God's Word is not faithfully preached, the church has no value.
2. The majority of churches that do preach the Word of God have no life in them. Though the preaching is good, the people don't care. They don't care about visitors, they don't respond to the preaching, the church is just withering away. In 20 years, everyone will have passed and the church will be gone.

Now, I know that is a lot of generalization, but the reality is that the number of good churches has declined significantly in the last 20 years. For every 1 church that opens its doors, 10 churches close and that was in 2007.

How do we prevent this from happening
1. Pastors need to stop the entertaining speeches and get back to Preaching the Word of God. It is the Word of God that impacts lives.
2. People need to stop being self centered and start caring about other Christians and the lost.

Churches need to get back to being churches instead of being Sunday entertainment.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

can you distinguish between the two and explain each position?

KJVO - King James Version Only - This position holds to the KJV being the Inspired Word of God, either through Preservation (Biblical) or through re-inspiration (Ruckmanite - Not Biblical)
1. A KJVO individual believes that the KJV is the only version that English speaking individuals should ever use. They reject all modern translations and any future modern translations.
2. Extremists in this position will also say that the KJV should be used to translate the Bible into other languages.
3. Even further to the extreme, there are some in this camp that believe that if you are not saved from a KJV, they you are not saved as the KJV is the only version which is the Word of God and saves people.

OKJV - Only King James Version - This position also holds to the KJV being the inspired Word of God, but would completely reject the Ruckmanite position of re-inspiration.
1. The KJV is inspired through Preservation as promised in Scripture. Inspiration was only in the original manuscripts, but the KJV can be considered the "Inspired Word of God" because of Preservation
2. The OKJV individual is open to a future modern translation as long as that translation meets the same criteria of the KJV. (Probably never going to happen, but they are open to it). The reason it won't happen is because those that are qualified to actually do the translation are not willing and those that are willing, are not capable.

Though the average KJVO and OKJV are basically the same in their position, the willingness for God to continue his preservation in a new translation is not acceptable to the KJVO group.

 

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2 hours ago, Pastorj said:

KJVO - King James Version Only - This position holds to the KJV being the Inspired Word of God, either through Preservation (Biblical) or through re-inspiration (Ruckmanite - Not Biblical)
1. A KJVO individual believes that the KJV is the only version that English speaking individuals should ever use. They reject all modern translations and any future modern translations.
2. Extremists in this position will also say that the KJV should be used to translate the Bible into other languages.
3. Even further to the extreme, there are some in this camp that believe that if you are not saved from a KJV, they you are not saved as the KJV is the only version which is the Word of God and saves people.

OKJV - Only King James Version - This position also holds to the KJV being the inspired Word of God, but would completely reject the Ruckmanite position of re-inspiration.
1. The KJV is inspired through Preservation as promised in Scripture. Inspiration was only in the original manuscripts, but the KJV can be considered the "Inspired Word of God" because of Preservation
2. The OKJV individual is open to a future modern translation as long as that translation meets the same criteria of the KJV. (Probably never going to happen, but they are open to it). The reason it won't happen is because those that are qualified to actually do the translation are not willing and those that are willing, are not capable.

Though the average KJVO and OKJV are basically the same in their position, the willingness for God to continue his preservation in a new translation is not acceptable to the KJVO group.

Another difference between the KJVO position and the OKJV position would be their differing viewpoint concerning Bible study through the use of the original languages, Hebrew and Greek.  Those of the KJVO position would view it as a major negative (maybe even, a sinful negative); those of the OKJV position would view it as a useful positive.

In addition, those of the OKJV position will often indicate that what they really are is MTO (Massoretic Text Only) for the Hebrew of the Old Testament & TRO (Textus Receptus Only; Received Text Only) for the Greek of the New Testament.  

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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Pastorj, I am not suggesting you settle at all.  I am suggesting that if the Holy Spirit leads you to that church, unite with it.  Your gifts and influence may change the ways of the preacher or lead to a change in who stands in the pulpit.  Again, this is the work of the Holy Ghost through the hearts of submissive and humbled men.  

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