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Alan

The Beginning ot the New Testament Chruch.

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Sword,

Hello. Thank you for enjoying the posts. I do hope to get to know one another better in the days ahead. The questions, though good questions, are somewhat off topic, but I will briefly answer them.

Based on what I know of the doctrine of the Holy Spirit from the scriptures, through my personal experience with Charismatics, and a knowledge of the Charismatic Movement (starting from Charles Parham, William Seymour, etc...), the baptism that the Pentecostals promote is not the same baptism as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as given in the scriptures.

The Biblical tongues is the ability, through the Holy Spirit, to speak in a foreign language, in order to preach the gospel; Acts 2:1-36 The tongues, as started by Charles Parham, up to this day, is not biblical speaking in tongues.

The gift of biblical tongues ceased with the completion of the New Testament: 1 Corinthians 13:8 and 10, "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease, whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. ... But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." The biblical gift of speaking in different languages, special prophecies, and special knowledge, ceased at the completion of the 'perfect' word of God: the New Testament Scriptures.

As a whole, Baptists, and Protestants, and others, have seen the error of the Charismatics and will not partake of their mistaken beliefs. At the moment of salvation, the Holy Spirit indwells every believer: Ephesians 4:30 I will add one thought. A lot of saints are sealed with the Holy Spirit but do not have the power of the Holy Spirit for service: Acts 1:8

I know these are very brief answers and other questions arise, but, another thread will have to take care of them.

Again, I am happy to hear from you, hope we can have more discussions in the days ahead and become better acquainted.

Alan

Edited by Alan
capatilization

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Thanks Alan. 

Parham et al did not start the tongues movement.  Rev Wm Goode writing in 1833, about the tongues movement at that time, said after listing many similar instances throughout history said there were probably always pockets of such appearing, but have been, perhaps unwisly, swept under the carpet, as it were.

Goode was writing about the Irvingite movement, later known as the Catholic Apostolic Church. This church continued into the 20th century.  One of my  dad's sisters attended one of their churches in the 1920s  in London.

Charles Wesley shared a hotel room with one of the French Prohets, he said that the man gobbled like a turkey cock all night long.

 

Edited by Invicta

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I have read about Wm Goode, and other isolated incidents such as he records, and as you mentioned Wesley.  I am not totally convinced enough to say that they were the start of the modern Charismatic Movement nor am I sure of what truly happened in these isolated incidents. Among foreign cultures (specifically heathen), speaking gibberish has happened periodically. I am of the persuasion these incidents are not of the Lord. I do not discount the information given; but, as far the modern Charismatic Movement I start with Parham and Seymour.

 

Edited by Alan
deleted a phrase

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There were the Shakers who carried o to the 20th century. Goode says the were founded by James and Jane Wardley, who werer Quakers They took on the spirit of the French prophets and became known as the Shaking Quakers, later known as the Shakers. 'Mother Anne' was a later convert.  The Shakers disbanded in the 1950s to "send our spirit" into the world.  This was about the time that the charismatic movement took over pentecostals. Marx and Engels were influeced by the shakers, and according to the later got their communistic ideas ffom them  Engels is reported as saying to the dying Marx "Remember the Shakers" 

Goode's book was republished some years ago under the title of Charismatic Confusion. (K&M Books AD2000, ISBN 0 9523041 4 7) It has some additional material added, an intoduction and some apendices on the modern movements. I did read somewhere, I can't remember where.  that Marx was influenced by another chafrismtic, Joanna Southcott, possibly even a follower of her.  

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On 2017/6/24 at 9:56 PM, Alan said:

Sword,

Hello. Thank you for enjoying the posts. I do hope to get to know one another better in the days ahead. The questions, though good questions, are somewhat off topic, but I will briefly answer them.

Based on what I know of the doctrine of the Holy Spirit from the scriptures, through my personal experience with Charismatics, and a knowledge of the Charismatic Movement (starting from Charles Parham, William Seymour, etc...), the baptism that the Pentecostals promote is not the same baptism as the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as given in the scriptures.

The Biblical tongues is the ability, through the Holy Spirit, to speak in a foreign language, in order to preach the gospel; Acts 2:1-36 The tongues, as started by Charles Parham, up to this day, is not biblical speaking in tongues.

The gift of biblical tongues ceased with the completion of the New Testament: 1 Corinthians 13:8 and 10, "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease, whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. ... But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." The biblical gift of speaking in different languages, special prophecies, and special knowledge, ceased at the completion of the 'perfect' word of God: the New Testament Scriptures.

As a whole, Baptists, and Protestants, and others, have seen the error of the Charismatics and will not partake of their mistaken beliefs. At the moment of salvation, the Holy Spirit indwells every believer: Ephesians 4:30 I will add one thought. A lot of saints are sealed with the Holy Spirit but do not have the power of the Holy Spirit for service: Acts 1:8

I know these are very brief answers and other questions arise, but, another thread will have to take care of them.

Again, I am happy to hear from you, hope we can have more discussions in the days ahead and become better acquainted.

Alan

 

On 2017/6/25 at 7:21 AM, Alan said:

I have read about Wm Goode, and other isolated incidents such as he records, and as you mentioned Wesley.  I am not totally convinced enough to say that they were the start of the modern Charismatic Movement nor am I sure of what truly happened in these isolated incidents. Among foreign cultures (specifically heathen), speaking gibberish has happened periodically. I am of the persuasion these incidents are not of the Lord. I do not discount the information given; but, as far the modern Charismatic Movement I start with Parham and Seymour.

 

 

On 2017/6/27 at 7:25 AM, Invicta said:

There were the Shakers who carried o to the 20th century. Goode says the were founded by James and Jane Wardley, who werer Quakers They took on the spirit of the French prophets and became known as the Shaking Quakers, later known as the Shakers. 'Mother Anne' was a later convert.  The Shakers disbanded in the 1950s to "send our spirit" into the world.  This was about the time that the charismatic movement took over pentecostals. Marx and Engels were influeced by the shakers, and according to the later got their communistic ideas ffom them  Engels is reported as saying to the dying Marx "Remember the Shakers" 

 

As I stated before, the issue with the Charismatic, and/or, Pentecostal Movement, is off topic.

I gave a very brief answer to a question by a newcomer to the forum and want to keep it that way. I also stated that, as far as I am concerned, the modern Charismatic Movement started with Charles Parham and William Seymour. The information given by Goode is irrelevant in this study. I gave a brief, and a deliberate incomplete answer in order not to get off topic too much. Nor do I agree with the following statement, "This was about the time that the charismatic movement took over pentecostals."  I do not intend to go into a history with Goode, or any other church historian, on any of my statements. My statements stand as written.

I have no intention for this thread on, "The Beginning of the New Testament Church," being taken over by a study on the Charismatics.

Alan

 

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Brethren,

To re-cap:

The original intention of this thread was, "The Beginning of the New Testament Church."

After a series of questions by Jake (InSeasonOut) were adequately answered we dealt very briefly on the Charismatic issue.

The original  passages, and the context of the interpretations given, are as follows:  Ephesians 1:22 & 23; 2:19 & 20, Matthew 16:18, Luke 7:26 & 27 , 1 Corinthians 12:28 & 29, John 20:21-23 and Acts 1:8

Thus far I do not find an error in the interpretations, that the Lord Jesus started the church during His earthly ministry; this includes the 40 days that He was on the earth after His resurrection. 

Alan

 

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Brethren,

If the moderators do not mind, the information on this thread,"The Beginning of the New Testament Church," is the foundation for, "The Local Church" study.

So, I would like for this thread to be considered the foundation, and continued on, "The Local Church" study.

Here is the link to, "The Local Church" thread:

Alan

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