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InSeasonOut

When the church started. Pentecost or Israel

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2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Regeneration before the sacrifice of Christ? By what power? If one was regenerated without the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, then there was no reason for Him to come and die for sin.

Mike,

If regeneration wasn't possible before Christ's sacrifice, then why did Christ tell Nicodemus the following?

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:7
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

This was BEFORE his sacrifice, but he stressed to Nicodemus (and everyone else) that they needed to be born again...right then...present tense. He didn't say, "Soon, a man can be born again." He didn't say, "Soon, ye will be able to be born again." No...he said it in present tense.

Regeneration is a one-time and immediate act done by the Spirit. It doesn't necessitate the Spirit's indwelling.

What happens when someone is born again...aka...regenerated?

1. Does regeneration give us sinless perfection? No, yet this seems to be one of the arguments against OT regeneration.

Those people in the OT did a lot of things they shouldn't have done! Murder! Adultery! Why...there's no way that they were regenerated! 

Don't saved people today...do a lot of things they shouldn't do? To hate your brother is murder. To lust after a woman is adultery. We lie, we cheat, we steal. But we're regenerated! Yes, but we still do some pretty stinking, rotten, down-and-dirty sins...DESPITE our having the indwelling Holy Spirit.

2. Does regeneration necessitate the indwelling Holy Spirit? No, yet this seems to be one of the arguments against OT regeneration.

The Holy Spirit only came upon people in the OT, then he left them! There's no way that they were regenerated!

Okay. Granted.

Yet...

What were the circumstances; in which, the Bible specifically records that "the Spirit came upon _____?"

The Old Testament isn't written like the New Testament. Look and see what the circumstances were; in which, the events that were recorded had to do with "the Spirit coming upon _____." 

Those events were things like...

some prophesied after the Spirit came upon them.

some did mighty acts after the Spirit came upon them.

some pronounced judgment after the Spirit came upon them.

one person even got angry when the Spirit came upon them!

These were all "acts of the Spirit" as he moved and empowered men to do things. Don't we often hear that the Book of Acts should be called the Acts of the Spirit rather than the Acts of the Apostles?

What is regeneration? Is it not the creation of a new creature inside of a man? Is it not where old things are passed away and all things become new? Is it not where one has a new desire to do things that please God rather than self?

Who are we to say that Noah wasn't regenerated? He sure seemed to fit the definition to me.

Who are we to say that Abram wasn't regenerated? He sure seemed to fit the definition to me.

Who are we to say that David, Daniel, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. weren't regenerated? They sure seemed to fit the definition to me.

I don't see the problem in regeneration before Christ's sacrifice. At the same time, I don't understand it all either. Certainly the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ was the final part needed. After all, folks from the OT didn't go to heaven until after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Yet, the Bible clearly called them saints...

Matthew 27:52-53
52   And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53   And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Those folks were called saints. What is a saint?

1. holy (set apart by God unto himself and apart from the world).
2. (of a person) a holy one.
3. (physically or ceremonially) clean.
4. (morally) blameless.

Sounds a lot like folks who were regenerated to me...

So, after writing all of this, I realize it probably won't persuade anyone. However, at this point in my understanding, I can't be persuaded otherwise unless someone can show me that regeneration itself requires the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. 

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2 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

wretched,

I think I "in essence" agree with the idea behind your post. However, I do have one concern...

Unless a post (or thread) is in a section of the forum that's not available for public display, then anyone can read it. Unfortunately, we live in a day and age; in which, many people are searching the internet for answers. So, I see what takes place here as more than a pastime. We often forget that others can also view our interactions...that we're not in a box and secluded from the world.

Then again, even if a post (or thread) is located in a section of the forum that's not available for public display, there are still others who have access to those sections who may not be actively involved...but are still reading and watching. 

We may not realize the importance of what we're doing...or we may forget about it at times (I know I sure do), but our words...whether we realize it or not...are more than just a pastime.

...every idle word will be accounted for.

Good points as usual, I get it

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1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

This was in response to your text that said that you strongly believe that the OT Jews were saved by faith and the keeping of the law. That is the only issue I was addressing. I only posted Scripture, not an opinion, so are you saying you disagree with Scripture?

I have never heard of any Baptists that believed that anyone was ever saved by keeping the law. Therefore I posted those Scriptures.
 Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 

Well first nay i politely ask why didn't you answer my questions? ... And I knew how you were using those scriptures to falsely assume OT Jews were saved by faith and not the law.  (BTW: Baptists are not the final authority. The Bible is. You know that. I know that :)

But dealing with the scriptures you posted in Galatians. I know the context of Galatians, Jews were trying to put Christians back under the law. Christians are not under the law, but Jews were! - Even reference any orthodox Jew today, he will not tell you he is saved by "faith alone". The word faith only appears twice in the OT.

How about I reference a verse in Galatians... 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Why couldn't an OT Jew only keep part of the law? Why was he a debtor to do the whole law? Wasn't he saved by his faith? (im speaking if OT Jews - not NT)

If you want me to start a thread on this topic, I will. But in the meantime look up the words / phrase "sin offering" and "law of Moses".

Your concordance works just like mine.

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46 minutes ago, InSeasonOut said:

Well first nay i politely ask why didn't you answer my questions? ... And I knew how you were using those scriptures to falsely assume OT Jews were saved by faith and not the law.  (BTW: Baptists are not the final authority. The Bible is. You know that. I know that :)

But dealing with the scriptures you posted in Galatians. I know the context of Galatians, Jews were trying to put Christians back under the law. Christians are not under the law, but Jews were! - Even reference any orthodox Jew today, he will not tell you he is saved by "faith alone". The word faith only appears twice in the OT.

How about I reference a verse in Galatians... 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Why couldn't an OT Jew only keep part of the law? Why was he a debtor to do the whole law? Wasn't he saved by his faith? (im speaking if OT Jews - not NT)

If you want me to start a thread on this topic, I will. But in the meantime look up the words / phrase "sin offering" and "law of Moses".

Your concordance works just like mine.

Have you read Deuteronomy chapters 28-30 yet?

If so, did you see the the only listed benefits of their keeping the law?

Did you see the only listed repercussions if they didn't keep the law?

Did you see any indication whatsoever that keeping the law had anything to do whatsoever with their salvation?

Again I humbly ask, why do you believe OT Jews had to keep the law and have faith? Where is the biblical support that Jews were saved by both keeping the law and faith?

When you find the answers to these questions, it will help you...

  1. Why did God give them the law?
  2. Why did God only give the law to the Jews and not the world?

Finally, what does it matter what an Orthodox Jew believes today?

 

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9 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

I have never heard of any Baptists that believed that anyone was ever saved by keeping the law. 

Ruckmanites!  Ruckmanism is his version of protestant heresies repackaged for the KJV.  Same garbage I was taught at Calvary Chapel but that guy took it even further.  These fellas have taken the simplicity of the gospel and salvation and made it complex and confusing and wrong.  It's no wonder so few get saved these days.

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Well, this discussion has suddenly gone "all over the map."

As for myself, I am happy to engage in Biblical discussions with thoroughness and depth (even when that discussion leads to intense disagreement).  However, I am not interested to engage in personal infighting.  Speak against me if you will (not that any are doing so in this particular discussion), and I will generally choose to ignore such and continue to focus patiently upon the Biblical or doctrinal matter itself.  If others choose to defend my character (as has occurred in the past), such is appreciated.  However, I generally will avoid any engagement in direct "self-defense."  I would much rather engage in doctrinal defense.

Even so, if and when this discussion returns more fully unto the doctrinal matter of regeneration before the crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, I will likely reengage (for I DO have much "opinion" on that matter).  By the way, a great book for consideration on the matter is the Gospel of John, since one of its primary themes IS spiritual regeneration.

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15 hours ago, InSeasonOut said:

I just want to make it clear I never said this. ( I know my original post is long and there are becoming many comments on this thread so again, so again I don't even know who said this but it wasn't me)

Actually I thought someone else said that. Maybe something is getting lost in translation.  After a few quotes and quotes of quotes it becomes hard to follow sometime. 

23 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

No where in my above posting did I make any reference whatsoever at all unto the existence of the church during the time of the Old Testament.  In fact, no where in my above posting did I make any reference whatsoever unto the church at all.  Rather, in my above posting I dealt ONLY with the two matters of being regenerated by the Holy Spirit and of being baptized (indwelt) with the Holy Spirit.  In fact, I do NOT believe that the church of our Lord Jesus Christ existed during the time of the Old Testament.  However, I DO believe that Old Testament believers were INDEED regenerated by the Holy Spirit.  The doctrinal issue upon which I set my focus in my above posting was not the doctrine of the church, but was the doctrine of regeneration.

Maybe I'm confused. Isn't regeneration that same as being born-again? According to Strongs, it is the same as the new birth, ie, Salvation? The New Birth? There must be a shedding of blood for regeneration to occur, but there could be NO salvation, ergo, no regeneration in the blood of bulls and goats, only in the blood of Christ. Not even by keeping the law and having faith: 

"Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.  But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster." (Gal 3:21-25) 

Even faith could not save BEFORE Christ came, nor could the law save, because none could keep the law. The law pointed us to Christ, SO we could be justified by faith. Before Christ, we could not be justified even by faith, so there was no regeneration, no salvation, no new birth, before Christ's death, burial and resurrection.

Therefore, the "two compartment" view, as you call it, of Hades, or Hell, MUST be the case, because the so-called righteous dead went somewhere. If it was heaven why is Abraham the one comforting Lazarus and not Christ? If heaven is in a totally different place than Hell, why is Baraham able to speak with the rich man, over a mere chasm?

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13 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Have you read Deuteronomy chapters 28-30 yet?

If so, did you see the the only listed benefits of their keeping the law?

Did you see the only listed repercussions if they didn't keep the law?

Did you see any indication whatsoever that keeping the law had anything to do whatsoever with their salvation?

Again I humbly ask, why do you believe OT Jews had to keep the law and have faith? Where is the biblical support that Jews were saved by both keeping the law and faith?

When you find the answers to these questions, it will help you...

  1. Why did God give them the law?
  2. Why did God only give the law to the Jews and not the world?

Finally, what does it matter what an Orthodox Jew believes today?

 

Sure, thanks for asking the way you did. Quick question though which will determine how I respond..

Do you believe that OT Jews were saved by looking forward to the cross ? Or are you saying they were just saved by faith?

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25 minutes ago, InSeasonOut said:

Sure, thanks for asking the way you did. Quick question though which will determine how I respond..

Do you believe that OT Jews were saved by looking forward to the cross ? Or are you saying they were just saved by faith?

I believe you will find my answer below (from a previous post in this thread); in which, I originally asked you about Deuteronomy 28-30, and I also responded to Joe Corley and Jim_Alaska. I will insert who each section applies to.

Your question (to me) should be answered in my response to him; in which, I was responding to him saying that no one in the Old Testament looked forward to the cross.

On 6/6/2017 at 0:38 PM, No Nicolaitans said:

Response to InSeasonOut:

If I may ask, why do you believe this? I ask this sincerely; where does the Bible say that their salvation resulted from faith and keeping the law? 

If one reads Deuteronomy chapters 28-30 (just to keep it short), one will see both the blessings for keeping the law...and the curses for not keeping the law. Both of them (blessings and curses) are physical...not spiritual. They would be blessed physically or cursed physically dependent upon their obedience or disobedience to the law. Salvation is never mentioned in any way as having to do with keeping the law.

Response to Joe Corley:

The cross itself? Perhaps not. The work of Christ? Yes.

Luke 24:25-27
25   Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26   Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27   And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Like many today, the Jews stumbled at the stone of stumbling. They fixed their eyes upon the law rather than the law-giver. The knowledge and work of Christ was right there for them to see and read...but they missed it. They sought to attain righteousness through works (the law) rather than faith...and many today still try to ascribe law-keeping as a means of (or part of) their salvation.

Romans 9:31-33
31   But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32   Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33   As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Response to Jim_Alaska:

I think everyone here knows that I'm always willing to admit if I'm wrong about something; I often say that I reserve the right to be wrong. Still, I feel much the same Bro. Jim. I think that's one reason that I've more or less resorted to posting nonsensical things in the non-doctrinal sections of the forum.
 

 

 

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7 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

There must be a shedding of blood for regeneration to occur,

Mike, I'm asking this humbly...I'm not challenging you. Can you show where the shedding of blood is needed for regeneration to occur?

I know that the shedding of blood is required for the remission of sins and redemption, but I can't recall where the shedding of blood was needed for regeneration.

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14 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Mike, I'm asking this humbly...I'm not challenging you. Can you show where the shedding of blood is needed for regeneration to occur?

I know that the shedding of blood is required for the remission of sins and redemption, but I can't recall where the shedding of blood was needed for regeneration.

Hebrews 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Hebrews 9: 7 "But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:"

There can be no regeneration without remission of sins, and there can be no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. From Eden, when Adam and Eve sinned, and God killed animals to cover them, He shed their blood, else they would not have had ny fellowship with the Lord.   The first prophet, Abel, was the one who knew to offer God a blood sacrifice, while Cain sought to use the fruit of his own hands to please God.  Every OT blood sacrifice, particularly under the law, was a picture of Christ and what He would do for us, through His blood. The Day of Atonement was all about offering a sin sacrifice of blood for the entire nation. 

Regernation is the new birth, it is a word we like to use a lot, but it is only mentioned in scripture twice, and each time it has to do with the new life one is given at salvation. And there can be no new life given, no new birth, without forgiveness of sins. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" All these things could only occur because Jesus' shed His blood and paid the price for sin-without that, there could be no new birth, no regeneration, no renewing of the Holy Ghost. They ALL hinge on the one time sacrifice of Jesus' cleansing blood.

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46 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

Hebrews 9:22 "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

Hebrews 9: 7 "But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:"

There can be no regeneration without remission of sins, and there can be no remission of sin without the shedding of blood. From Eden, when Adam and Eve sinned, and God killed animals to cover them, He shed their blood, else they would not have had ny fellowship with the Lord.   The first prophet, Abel, was the one who knew to offer God a blood sacrifice, while Cain sought to use the fruit of his own hands to please God.  Every OT blood sacrifice, particularly under the law, was a picture of Christ and what He would do for us, through His blood. The Day of Atonement was all about offering a sin sacrifice of blood for the entire nation. 

Regernation is the new birth, it is a word we like to use a lot, but it is only mentioned in scripture twice, and each time it has to do with the new life one is given at salvation. And there can be no new life given, no new birth, without forgiveness of sins. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" All these things could only occur because Jesus' shed His blood and paid the price for sin-without that, there could be no new birth, no regeneration, no renewing of the Holy Ghost. They ALL hinge on the one time sacrifice of Jesus' cleansing blood.

Thank you. I'll think these things over and compare it with my current understanding. Thank you for not taking offense.

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I'm still considering what Mike wrote, and I will continue to do so.

However, I still have a hard time getting past the Lord Jesus' own words; in which, he told Nicodemus...

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:7
7   Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

...words that the Lord spoke in present tense before his death, burial, and resurrection.

 

I still have a hard time getting past the fact that many of the saints walked around and were seen by many after Christ's resurrection.

Matthew 27:52-53
52   And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53   And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

How did they become saints? Why were they saints? They had to have been saved; therefore, regenerated (born again)...yet, they were saints from the Old Testament...unless a whole lot of believers died immediately after Christ's death, burial, and resurrection...but that's not feasible. These were Old Testament saints.

 

I still have a hard time getting past the fact that Peter said...

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Peter makes it clear that one is born again (regenerated) by the word of God...no mention of the shedding of blood. They had the word of God in the Old Testament. The words of the Old Testament covered the work of Christ. His work was prophesied as the Lord Jesus Christ himself attested to. 
 

So, at this time, while I will continue to meditate on these things and how (or if) the shedding of blood was needed for regeneration itself, I'm still left believing that regeneration most certainly happened in the Old Testament. The death, burial, and resurrection of Christ was the final "piece of the puzzle" (if you will). Their faith was in his future work, but until all was put under the blood, they were held in paradise until his blood was applied on the Mercy Seat...at least, that's my view.

Or...works, keeping the law, and faith saved them...but that's definitely not the case according to God's word.

Why did Jesus say what he did to Nicodemus if it wasn't possible?

Why does the Bible call the Old Testament people (who appeared to many after Christ's resurrection) saints?

Why did the Holy Spirit inspire Peter to write that we are born again by the word of God with no mention of the shedding of blood? It's faith in the record of Christ's work recorded in God's word...a record that was also in the Old Testament.

Luke 24:25-27
25   Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26   Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27   And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

As I said, I will continue to meditate upon everything. If I'm wrong, I want to know it. It's just hard for me to get past some of these very clear-cut statements as I've pointed out above.

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For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

 

And of course, no offense taken, my brother.

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On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2017 at 7:56 PM, No Nicolaitans said:

Again I humbly ask, why do you believe OT Jews had to keep the law and have faith? Where is the biblical support that Jews were saved by both keeping the law and faith?

Here is my humble answer.

While I agree salvation was by grace through faith before the law was given, but after the law was given, they couldn't just have faith and reject God's commandments. They needed a sin offering , shedding of blood of an animal of some sort to cover their sin. (While no one ever goes to heaven apart from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, how his blood is applied differs in each dispensation).

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Exodus 35:1-3 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them. 2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

This isn't just physical salvation, of staying alive. It was also spiritual. There was no eternal security in under the law in the OT. I support the nation of Israel, and believe they will inherit the land God promised them, but many Jews still went to hell, (and many today as well because they reject Christ, it doesn't matter if they keep the law today). But under OT law, if they died in their sins they went to hell. (not Abraham's Bosom / Paradise).

Psalm 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." - God in his mercy even delivered David from hell. He was a great man of faith, but he transgressed God's law and was in danger of hell. Obeying God's law in the OT had the benefit of giving them material blessings.

Numbers 16:31-35 31 ¶ And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. 33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. 34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. 35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Leviticus 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty; 14a 14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin...  4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

Levi 5:1-3 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity. 2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty. 3 Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty. ... 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

Quick note, God said if a "soul" sin, or a "soul touch..." Their soul is connected to their flesh.

Ezekiel 18:4-5 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 ¶ But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,..
. 18:8-9 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. ... 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. ... 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

It's clear that even they could die in their sins and they would go to hell. They had to keep God's commandments.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Pharisee's is a little different situation, but even they said in Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And actually note that these are Pharisees which believed, meaning in Jesus. But even they were confused about keeping the law... the whole chapter of Acts 15 is pretty much about this... and i'd say more but I hope you get why I say this so far.

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2 hours ago, InSeasonOut said:

Here is my humble answer.

While I agree salvation was by grace through faith before the law was given, but after the law was given, they couldn't just have faith and reject God's commandments. They needed a sin offering , shedding of blood of an animal of some sort to cover their sin. (While no one ever goes to heaven apart from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, how his blood is applied differs in each dispensation).

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Exodus 35:1-3 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them. 2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

This isn't just physical salvation, of staying alive. It was also spiritual. There was no eternal security in under the law in the OT. I support the nation of Israel, and believe they will inherit the land God promised them, but many Jews still went to hell, (and many today as well because they reject Christ, it doesn't matter if they keep the law today). But under OT law, if they died in their sins they went to hell. (not Abraham's Bosom / Paradise).

Psalm 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." - God in his mercy even delivered David from hell. He was a great man of faith, but he transgressed God's law and was in danger of hell. Obeying God's law in the OT had the benefit of giving them material blessings.

Numbers 16:31-35 31 ¶ And it came to pass, as he had made an end of speaking all these words, that the ground clave asunder that was under them: 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. 33 They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation. 34 And all Israel that were round about them fled at the cry of them: for they said, Lest the earth swallow us up also. 35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Leviticus 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty; 14a 14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin...  4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

Levi 5:1-3 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity. 2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty. 3 Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty. ... 5:6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

Quick note, God said if a "soul" sin, or a "soul touch..." Their soul is connected to their flesh.

Ezekiel 18:4-5 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
5 ¶ But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right,..
. 18:8-9 He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgment between man and man, 9 Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgments, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord GOD. ... 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him. ... 18:18 As for his father, because he cruelly oppressed, spoiled his brother by violence, and did that which is not good among his people, lo, even he shall die in his iniquity.

18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. 22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 ¶ But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

It's clear that even they could die in their sins and they would go to hell. They had to keep God's commandments.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Pharisee's is a little different situation, but even they said in Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

And actually note that these are Pharisees which believed, meaning in Jesus. But even they were confused about keeping the law... the whole chapter of Acts 15 is pretty much about this... and i'd say more but I hope you get why I say this so far.

Friend, I appreciate you taking the time to post why you believe as you do. 

I mean you no offense, and my intentions aren't to cause you any type of hard feelings toward me.

I mean this as kindly as possible...I don't see that any of what you posted proved they had to obey the law and have faith to be saved, nor do I agree with much of your interpretation (as to what those various verses mean).

(Hebrews 9:14-15) 

 14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 

 15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

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15 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 

2 hours ago, InSeasonOut said:

(While no one ever goes to heaven apart from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, how his blood is applied differs in each dispensation).

 

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Jim Alaska quoted the following verse concerning the eternal salvation of soul, in any dispensation, whether Jew or Gentile. these verses clearly teach (doctrinal), that by the deeds of the flesh, whether Jew or gentile, whether under the Law or during the Millennium, the eternal salvation of the soul is through grace, by faith, and the the Law was given to show our sinfulness before a Holy and Righteous God:

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 

 Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

 Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

 Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

As Jim Alaska clearly pointed out, the salvation of the soul by faith through faith is doctrine and applies to all mankind; Jew or Gentile, under the Law or during the Millennium.

In response to the teaching by InSeasonOut that the Jews under the Law were saved by keeping the Law, No Nicolaitans wrote:

"Friend, I appreciate you taking the time to post why you believe as you do. 

I mean you no offense, and my intentions aren't to cause you any type of hard feelings toward me.

I mean this as kindly as possible...I don't see that any of what you posted proved they had to obey the law and have faith to be saved, nor do I agree with much of your interpretation (as to what those various verses mean).

(Hebrews 9:14-15

 14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 

 15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

NoNicolaitans was entirely correct, and gracious, in his comments.

I too studied the passages brought out by InSeasonOut, and read his interpretation of those passages; and found the interpretation a private interpretation not supported by the scriptures.

Alan

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1 hour ago, InSeasonOut said:

(While no one ever goes to heaven apart from the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, how his blood is applied differs in each dispensation).

Look again at what the verses are saying (that I quoted), or it might be better to look more closely at what they are not saying...

According to that plain scripture, what is the one and only thing that gave redemption of sins (transgressions) to those under the first testament? 

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25 minutes ago, InSeasonOut said:

Can I answer your question with a question?

How are the "tribulation saints" saved after the rapture? Faith alone?

Yes, you may; however, I didn't mean for you to actually answer my question publicly. I had only hoped that you would look at my request and see what conclusion you derived from those scriptures. My apologies for not clarifying that.

Yes, they are saved by faith in Christ alone.

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  • 7 hours ago, Alan said:

    Jim Alaska quoted the following verse concerning the eternal salvation of soul, in any dispensation, whether Jew or Gentile. these verses clearly teach (doctrinal), that by the deeds of the flesh, whether Jew or gentile, whether under the Law or during the Millennium, the eternal salvation of the soul is through grace, by faith, and the the Law was given to show our sinfulness before a Holy and Righteous God:

    Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 

     Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

     Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

     Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
     
    Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
    Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
    Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    As Jim Alaska clearly pointed out, the salvation of the soul by faith through faith is doctrine and applies to all mankind; Jew or Gentile, under the Law or during the Millennium.

    In response to the teaching by InSeasonOut that the Jews under the Law were saved by keeping the Law, No Nicolaitans wrote:

    "Friend, I appreciate you taking the time to post why you believe as you do. 

    I mean you no offense, and my intentions aren't to cause you any type of hard feelings toward me.

    I mean this as kindly as possible...I don't see that any of what you posted proved they had to obey the law and have faith to be saved, nor do I agree with much of your interpretation (as to what those various verses mean).

    (Hebrews 9:14-15

     14  How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 

     15  And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

    NoNicolaitans was entirely correct, and gracious, in his comments.

    I too studied the passages brought out by InSeasonOut, and read his interpretation of those passages; and found the interpretation a private interpretation not supported by the scriptures.

    Alan

    I would like to get a penny for my thoughts, but don't expect any change back.

  • the reason in season and out , as well as myself and some others called bible believers agree along the same lines is  basically due to our method of study which is based upon 2nd Timothy 2:15 ..." rightly dividing the word of truth"...  for example, we believe that what paul wrote to the church was just that , it was to the church and should not apply to the Jews or to Gentiles until they become a part of the church.

  • when our Lord said in matthew 24:13 "But He that shall endure unto the end , the same shall be saved." he was clearly not speaking to the church but rather to the Jews .

  • If I get a credit card bill in my mail box that is addressed to brother Jim , I can learn a lot from reading it, however I am not responsible to pay the bill because it is not addressed to me.

  • we simply believe the key to understanding scripture is knowing who is speaking, who is spoken to, and what is he saying. If the scripture is not applied this way then many bible truths become misplaced and produce heresies . that is why the church of Christ teaches water baptism as part of salvation, its why the charismatics speak in tongues....... every heresy is a truth misplaced.

  • ALL of the bible is written for our learning , but it is not all directed to the church.

  • when the rich young ruler came to the Lord and asked him how to attain eternal life ,what the Lord did not say was believe the death, buriel , and resurrection, because it did not apply because the Lord was standing there in the flesh speaking to him,

  • while you may not agree with our method or approach I feel it is important to understand where we are coming from.

  • Heb. 11:1 says " Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." so in the Mill. when Jesus is sitting on the throne of David , they will see him! and if it is sight it is no more of faith.

  • now concerning O T salvation. look at Ez. 3:20 Again when a righteous man ( right with God) doth turn from his righteousness ( go back in sin) and commit iniquity , and I lay a stumbling block before him,he shall die:because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin,and his righteousness WHICH HE HATH DONE, shall not be remembered; ....." this is one of the verses that charismatics teach for loosing salvation , the only problem is that it does not apply to the church.

  • brethren with all humility and truthfulness in my heart , the sole purpose here is that you understand why we ( I) believe what we believe and that even if you disagree we can agree that we disagree and have fellowship and rejoicing over the fact that we could still be cursing and fighting with cue sticks at bubbas bar.(no offence to all the bubbas and their husbands ) but we are fellowshipping over the precious words of God.  And I am not worthy!! be blessed.

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1 hour ago, Joe Coley said:
  • I would like to get a penny for my thoughts, but don't expect any change back.

  • the reason in season and out , as well as myself and some others called bible believers agree along the same lines is  basically due to our method of study which is based upon 2nd Timothy 2:15 ..." rightly dividing the word of truth"...  for example, we believe that what paul wrote to the church was just that , it was to the church and should not apply to the Jews or to Gentiles until they become a part of the church.

I also base my study method on rightly dividing the word of truth. I think the difference is in what one believes "to rightly divide" means. My personal belief is that to rightly divide means to study the scriptures and discern what is being said rather than dividing the word to apply to different situations.

1 hour ago, Joe Coley said:

when our Lord said in matthew 24:13 "But He that shall endure unto the end , the same shall be saved." he was clearly not speaking to the church but rather to the Jews .

I would agree with that (for the most part); however, the crux of the matter is what does "endure to the end" mean, and what does "saved" mean? 

1 hour ago, Joe Coley said:

If I get a credit card bill in my mail box that is addressed to brother Jim , I can learn a lot from reading it, however I am not responsible to pay the bill because it is not addressed to me.

Shame on you for opening his mail! :laugh:

1 hour ago, Joe Coley said:

every heresy is a truth misplaced.

Hmmm...that's an interesting statement. I've never thought of it. Whether it's true or not, I don't know. I'm not too sure that every heresy is a truth misplaced though; such as, the Mormon's belief that Christ and Satan were brothers. I'm not sure what truth they could have possibly based that on. 

1 hour ago, Joe Coley said:

ALL of the bible is written for our learning , but it is not all directed to the church.

 
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 
1 hour ago, Joe Coley said:

when the rich young ruler came to the Lord and asked him how to attain eternal life ,what the Lord did not say was believe the death, buriel , and resurrection, because it did not apply because the Lord was standing there in the flesh speaking to him,

No sir, the Lord Jesus Christ was using the law to get the man to realize that he was a sinner in need of salvation rather than relying upon his works to save him. The man asked the Lord what HE HIMSELF could do to inherit eternal life. The Lord basically told him that he had to be perfect. The man lied and said that he had done those things from his youth. When the Lord saw that the man wouldn't admit that he was a sinner, he still used the law against him and told him to sell all that he had, give to the poor, and follow him. The Lord was still trying to get the man to see that he wasn't keeping the law...

Deuteronomy 6:4-5
4   Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
5   And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

This was the greatest commandment according to the Lord Jesus Christ himself. The man loved his riches more than he loved God.

Exodus 20:3
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

The man's riches were his god. He was a sinner in need of salvation. Christ answered the man according to his folly. If one wants eternal life on his own merit, then he has to be perfect...which no man is. 

1 hour ago, Joe Coley said:

while you may not agree with our method or approach I feel it is important to understand where we are coming from.

I do.

1 hour ago, Joe Coley said:

Heb. 11:1 says " Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." so in the Mill. when Jesus is sitting on the throne of David , they will see him! and if it is sight it is no more of faith.

Yes and no. They will still have to accept by faith that the Lord Jesus Christ died for their sins, that he was buried, and rose from the grave on the third day. None of them will have seen him do that...just as we didn't see it.

1 hour ago, Joe Coley said:

now concerning O T salvation. look at Ez. 3:20 Again when a righteous man ( right with God) doth turn from his righteousness ( go back in sin) and commit iniquity , and I lay a stumbling block before him,he shall die:because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin,and his righteousness WHICH HE HATH DONE, shall not be remembered; ....." this is one of the verses that charismatics teach for loosing salvation , the only problem is that it does not apply to the church.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Despite any righteous works done by them, compared to the righteousness of God, their righteous works were filthy rags. Despite any righteous works done by them, their iniquities took them away. It's the same with us today.

1 hour ago, Joe Coley said:

And I am not worthy!!

Nor am I.
 

 
Edited by No Nicolaitans
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1 hour ago, Joe Coley said:
  • I would like to get a penny for my thoughts, but don't expect any change back.

  • the reason in season and out , as well as myself and some others called bible believers agree along the same lines is  basically due to our method of study which is based upon 2nd Timothy 2:15 ..." rightly dividing the word of truth"...  for example, we believe that what paul wrote to the church was just that , it was to the church and should not apply to the Jews or to Gentiles until they become a part of the church. Two things. One. I am a bible Believer. to state that those brethren who disbelieve that the Jews are saved by works and faith are not Bible believers is not correct. Quite frankly, it is disparaging and a lie.Two. All of the verses quoted in Romans, Ephesians, Galatians and Hebrews are very clear; in every dispensation, including the Jews under the Law, during the Tribulation Period and during the Millennium, are saved by grace through faith.

  • when our Lord said in matthew 24:13 "But He that shall endure unto the end , the same shall be saved." he was clearly not speaking to the church but rather to the Jews . The Lord Jesus was not talking about the salvation of the soul in Matthew 24:13. The interpretation the the Lord Jesus was teaching that the Jews who endured to the end of the Tribulation Period were saved through keeping the Law is in error.

  • If I get a credit card bill in my mail box that is addressed to brother Jim , I can learn a lot from reading it, however I am not responsible to pay the bill because it is not addressed to me. This is not a correct, good, or acceptable illustration to prove you point.

  • we simply believe the key to understanding scripture is knowing who is speaking, who is spoken to, and what is he saying. If the scripture is not applied this way then many bible truths become misplaced and produce heresies . that is why the church of Christ teaches water baptism as part of salvation, its why the charismatics speak in tongues....... every heresy is a truth misplaced. Again, to say that those brethren who believe (correctly I might add), in that salvation is by grace through faith in all dispensations, are not correctly interpreting scripture and is producing heresy is your own interpretation.  It is those teachers who teach that the Jews were saved under the Law, the Jews in the Tribulation Period, and in the Millennium, that are teaching heretical doctrines concerning dispensational truth and the doctrine of salvation by faith in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and Hebrews.

  • ALL of the bible is written for our learning , but it is not all directed to the church. All of us bible believers teach that same premise. We, Bible believers, can properly rightly divide the scripture. We bible believers know which verse apply to the Jew and to the Gentile. In my opinion, you mis-use the word 'bible believer.'

  • when the rich young ruler came to the Lord and asked him how to attain eternal life ,what the Lord did not say was believe the death, buriel , and resurrection, because it did not apply because the Lord was standing there in the flesh speaking to him, We do not have the full account of the discussion between the rich young ruler and the Lord Jesus. The Lord Jesus stated to the rich young ruler that his riches were the stumbling block to his salvation. And, you are trying to wrest the words, and the words not recorded by the Lord Jesus, to teach a heretical doctrine.

  • while you may not agree with our method or approach I feel it is important to understand where we are coming from. I fully understand where you are coming from. I too read all of the books by Dr. Ruckman (and tapes, and I have sat under Dr. Ruckman's teaching), and know all of scriptures that he used to teach the belief that the Jews are saved by works.

  • Heb. 11:1 says " Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." so in the Mill. when Jesus is sitting on the throne of David , they will see him! and if it is sight it is no more of faith. The Jews, and Gentiles, in the Millennium are saved by grace through faith. Just seeing Jesus as King in the Millennium does not mean that people do not have faith. This interpretation of Hebrews 11:1 is mis-used to justify a heretical doctrine.

  • now concerning O T salvation. look at Ez. 3:20 Again when a righteous man ( right with God) doth turn from his righteousness ( go back in sin) and commit iniquity , and I lay a stumbling block before him,he shall die:because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin,and his righteousness WHICH HE HATH DONE, shall not be remembered; ....." this is one of the verses that charismatics teach for loosing salvation , the only problem is that it does not apply to the church. You implied that the man in Ezekiel 3:20 was righteous as for as salvation is concerned due to his own works 'righteousness.' If that be so, than the prophet Isaiah and Paul the apostle lied: "As is is written, There is none righteous, no, not one." Romans 3:20 and Isaiah 64:6, "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." The righteousness of the man in Ezekiel 3:20 was not good enough for the salvation of the soul. As with the charismatics, your interpretation of Ezekiel 3:20 is faulty.

  • brethren with all humility and truthfulness in my heart , the sole purpose here is that you understand why we ( I) believe what we believe and that even if you disagree we can agree that we disagree and have fellowship and rejoicing over the fact that we could still be cursing and fighting with cue sticks at bubbas bar.(no offence to all the bubbas and their husbands ) but we are fellowshipping over the precious words of God.  And I am not worthy!! be blessed.

 

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please accept my apology brethren if I don't not agree with you and there be any offence, but obviously we are most likely grounded in our belief as I would kindly disagree with your rebuttals . so the questions is whether we can accept what we clearly believe to be error from each other and be done with this saga. as I posted  my purpose was to simply declare our stand, and not to argue the point. I am sure there are many areas where we do agree and can have good fellowship. I have friends in the ministry who understand the we do not agree on many issues and we are willing to let it go: at times we even harass one another joyfully, "there is that Ruckmanite again"....this one thing I know.. Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them.  plus I know one more thing; we are by our own words brethren and I don't think there will be sections in heaven so we don't have to speak! may as well get to liken one another down here. somebody give me a thought for sundays message ! I will by Gods grace not bother you with this thread any longer. have a blessed day.

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