The Baptist Doctrine Of Salvation

[Salyan]

Um... wow. That was unnecessarily hostile.

Lutherans/Protestants/Baptists are not the same thing. All Lutherans are Protestants, but not all Protestants are Lutheran. And Baptists are neither Protestant nor Lutheran. If you want to understand us (which apparently you don't, as you seem to think you know everything already), it would be useful to stop confusing these very different denominations.

[Ukulelemike]

1 hour ago, John Yurich said:

I know what an altar looks like and it was an altar that I have seen in some Baptist Churches for celebrating Holy Communion on. It was not a table. So don't call me a liar. And if the Lutheran Church does not believe that the Divine Service of the Lutheran Church is a sacrifice then the altar in the Lutheran Church is not for sacrifice. So that takes care of that nonsense that an altar is for sacrifice.

So, did you child take over this conversation? Because that makes little sense.

1: No one called you a liar, so put on your big boy pants and relax. No one even implied you lied. Suggesting a mild misunderstanding, at most, is far from calling you a liar.

2: No one but you ever mentioned Lutherans, so I don't know what they and their view on an 'altar' have to do with this conversation.

3: an altar, by original definition, IS a place to offer sacrifices. In the Tabernacle and Temple in Jerusalem, they had the brasen altar, to offer burnt sacrifices upon, and the altar of incense, where incense was offered as a sacrifice of a sweet savour, representing the prayers of the saints. While differing kinds of sacrifices were offered, they were still sacrifices. The altar in a church might, in some ways, be likened to the altar of incense, as a place where we offer a sacrifice of prise and worship, even the sacrifice of ourselves as a living sacrifice to the Lord. But again, in many IFB churches, the 'altar' is more often referring to stairs going up to the pulpit area, maybe a single stp, a place to kneel and pray. Because we dont offer an animal doesn't mean it isn't an altar, it just means what we sacrifice is ourselves.

4: again, what is with bringing the Lutherans into this? Are you Lutheran? Why would what they think even matter?

Coincidentally, in the NT, there are only two words that are translated 'altar: one of them is only once, which referred to a raised place to offer a sacrifice, and it was referring to the 'altar to the unknown god' Paul spoke of at Mars Hill. otherwise, all of them referred to specifically the brasen altar or the altar of incense in the Temple. So, yes, an altar is to give a sacrifice.

  

[John Yurich]

2 hours ago, Salyan said:

Um... wow. That was unnecessarily hostile.

Lutherans/Protestants/Baptists are not the same thing. All Lutherans are Protestants, but not all Protestants are Lutheran. And Baptists are neither Protestant nor Lutheran. If you want to understand us (which apparently you don't, as you seem to think you know everything already), it would be useful to stop confusing these very different denominations.

All I was stating is that I have been in some Baptist Churches where there is an actual altar for the celebrating of Holy Communion on. And yes Baptists are Protestant because they are not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. If one is not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox then one is Protestant.

38 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

So, did you child take over this conversation? Because that makes little sense.

1: No one called you a liar, so put on your big boy pants and relax. No one even implied you lied. Suggesting a mild misunderstanding, at most, is far from calling you a liar.

2: No one but you ever mentioned Lutherans, so I don't know what they and their view on an 'altar' have to do with this conversation.

3: an altar, by original definition, IS a place to offer sacrifices. In the Tabernacle and Temple in Jerusalem, they had the brasen altar, to offer burnt sacrifices upon, and the altar of incense, where incense was offered as a sacrifice of a sweet savour, representing the prayers of the saints. While differing kinds of sacrifices were offered, they were still sacrifices. The altar in a church might, in some ways, be likened to the altar of incense, as a place where we offer a sacrifice of prise and worship, even the sacrifice of ourselves as a living sacrifice to the Lord. But again, in many IFB churches, the 'altar' is more often referring to stairs going up to the pulpit area, maybe a single stp, a place to kneel and pray. Because we dont offer an animal doesn't mean it isn't an altar, it just means what we sacrifice is ourselves.

4: again, what is with bringing the Lutherans into this? Are you Lutheran? Why would what they think even matter?

Coincidentally, in the NT, there are only two words that are translated 'altar: one of them is only once, which referred to a raised place to offer a sacrifice, and it was referring to the 'altar to the unknown god' Paul spoke of at Mars Hill. otherwise, all of them referred to specifically the brasen altar or the altar of incense in the Temple. So, yes, an altar is to give a sacrifice.

  

I am not Lutheran but Catholic. I only brought up the Lutheran Church to make the point that an altar in a church is not necessarily used as a sacrifice but only to be used for the celebrating of Holy Communion upon.

Edited May 25, 2017 by John Yurich
Addition of a sentance

[Salyan]

4 minutes ago, John Yurich said:

 And yes Baptists are Protestant because they are not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox. If one is not Catholic or Eastern Orthodox then one is Protestant.

Actually, there's a third option! Protestants, by definition, are those denominations that emerged from the Roman Catholic Church during the Protestant Reformation. Although you may find a couple baptistic groups that trace their origins to the Reformation, there were baptistic groups in existence previous to the Reformation - all through the medieval period!. Most IF Baptists trace their lineage to these free congregations, and thus do not consider themselves to be protestant.

[Ukulelemike]

10 minutes ago, Salyan said:

Actually, there's a third option! Protestants, by definition, are those denominations that emerged from the Roman Catholic Church during the Protestant Reformation. Although you may find a couple baptistic groups that trace their origins to the Reformation, there were baptistic groups in existence previous to the Reformation - all through the medieval period!. Most IF Baptists trace their lineage to these free congregations, and thus do not consider themselves to be protestant.

Correct. In fact, despite the claim that the Catholic church is THE original church, it's origins are from about 325AD, and actual Christian churches existed before the RCC began, before the reformation, and after the reformation, and still do. not all non-Catholics came out of the RCC.

And considering that the Roman Catholic church calls the eucharist a re-sacrificing of Jesus Christ in an unbloody mannr, THAT would be a sacrifice. It is wrong-the Lord's Supper, as the Bible calls it, (not a holy communion), is merely a remembrance, repesentative of the ONE-TIME death of Jesus Christ for our sin. the Catholic eucharist is an abomination to the Lord. 

[Invicta]

On 2017-5-25 at 7:52 PM, Ukulelemike said:

Correct. In fact, despite the claim that the Catholic church is THE original church, it's origins are from about 325AD, and actual Christian churches existed before the RCC began, before the reformation, and after the reformation, and still do. not all non-Catholics came out of the RCC.

And considering that the Roman Catholic church calls the eucharist a re-sacrificing of Jesus Christ in an unbloody mannr, THAT would be a sacrifice. It is wrong-the Lord's Supper, as the Bible calls it, (not a holy communion), is merely a remembrance, repesentative of the ONE-TIME death of Jesus Christ for our sin. the Catholic eucharist is an abomination to the Lord. 

Absolutely correct, Mike.  The Catholic Mass is called the unbloody sacrifice.  After the reformation, the CofE stopped using an altar and had a simple table in the centre of the church.  Arrchbishop Laud, at the time of King Charles Ist changed that and reinstalled altars in the east of the church.  

The Waldensians claimed their separation from Rome to the time when Sylvester was Bishop of Rome,i.e. about AD 325, they weren't then known as Waldensians, but they were descendents of those original witnesses.  They were name Valenses as people of the valies where they fled for refuge.

Also it is true that many Christians were still in Roman Churches. Many of the martyrs in Foxe were still in the church.  Claude Bishop of Turin although not a martyr was completely against the teachings of Rome.  Some were priests, others monks, priests, bishops such as Jan Hus (aka John Huss) . Like the Waldensiens, the Lollards, and others, he strongly denounced the pope as the Antichrist. One Vicar in our county of Kent where we live was burrnt to death in front of the door of his own church. 

After the reformation, the situation changed after Luther excommunicated the Pope.  I don't think that since then there could be any true believers in the church of Rome.  Luther was a monk and priest but after the reformation he took only the title of Evangelist.

On 2017-5-22 at 7:27 PM, John Yurich said:

There are some Evangelical Protestants who state that the Baptist doctrine of salvation of having an Altar Call to give individuals the opportunity to give their life to Christ is a works based plan of salvation. Yesterday I was Baptized via immersion(in the indoor pool of a nearby hotel) after worship at that Baptist Church I attend on Sunday mornings. I was asked 2 questions by the pastor. 1)Did I accept Jesus as my Savior and Lord? 2)Did I wish to be Baptized via immersion as a public profession of faith that I gave my life to Christ? That does not sound like a works based plan of salvation to me. Why would any Evangelical Protestant state that the Baptist doctrine of salvation is a works based plan of salvation?

I thought that was the charismatic donctrine.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Invicta