Who Populates the Millennial Kingdom?

[Invicta]

I am sure that text applies.  

Edited May 6, 2017 by Invicta

[DaveW]

8 minutes ago, Invicta said:

I am sure that text applies.  

Well then show everyone where I have lied?

This thread alone has the proof of the truth of my statements: Jordan has quoted pre-irvingite references to pre-trib discussion.

When I have time I might compile a number of quotes which show over the years when you have been shown the false nature of your claims, and then everyone can see clearly that you are a willing and knowing liar. 

And everyone can see with your misuse of scripture in this thread that you also have be no qualms with using scripture in the same manner as you use "history".

[Invicta]

13 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Invicta please take back your statement from earlier that implies that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was invented by the Irvingites. Anyone who reads the above quotes from Ephraem the Syrian can clearly see that he did in fact teach a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Just because you claim that people are misunderstanding doesn't change the truth. If you don't want to believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then that's your choice, but please stop spreading misinformation about the position.

OK Jordan, I withdraw it.  

Morgan Edwards misquotes scripture.  

13 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

“The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years. I say, somewhat more; because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ’s ‘appearing in the air’ (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many ‘mansions in the father's house’ (John xiv. 2), and disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for ‘now the time is come that judgment must begin,’ and that will be ‘at the house of God’ (I Pet. iv. 17)” (Edwards, Two Academical Exercises on the Subjects Bearing the Following Titles; Millennium and Last-Novelties, 1744).

Scripture does not say  ‘appearing in the air’  but  16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We often hear that the scripture says "Coming to the air"  Or as Edwards said, "Appearing in the air."  Both are misquoting acripture.  I was taught that "It does not say he will come to earth."  It may not but it certainly does not say He is going anywhere else.  It does say He will descend, but it does not say He will stop descending and start ascending again.

 

 

[Alimantado]

16 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

Invicta please take back your statement from earlier that implies that the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was invented by the Irvingites. Anyone who reads the above quotes from Ephraem the Syrian can clearly see that he did in fact teach a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Just because you claim that people are misunderstanding doesn't change the truth. If you don't want to believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then that's your choice, but please stop spreading misinformation about the position.

2 hours ago, Invicta said:

OK Jordan, I withdraw it.

Invicta, but what about next time a thread on this topic appears, say in a month or three months--will you just make the claim again, as if this conversation never happened?

[Jordan Kurecki]

5 hours ago, Invicta said:

OK Jordan, I withdraw it.  

Morgan Edwards misquotes scripture.  

Scripture does not say  ‘appearing in the air’  but  16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We often hear that the scripture says "Coming to the air"  Or as Edwards said, "Appearing in the air."  Both are misquoting acripture.  I was taught that "It does not say he will come to earth."  It may not but it certainly does not say He is going anywhere else.  It does say He will descend, but it does not say He will stop descending and start ascending again.

 

While what you say is true, it also does not say that he is going to come down to the earth, in fact it says we shall meet the Lord in the air an be caugh up in the clouds. However a careful comparsion with John 14 gives us another aspect to the picture:

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Notice Jesus said he was going to his Father's house to prepare a place for us. the implication is that when he comes again, it is to take us to our mansions in the Father's house. To me this is a clear picture of Christ descending to get his Church and then reascending to take them back to the Father's house.

and just for the record, I did not quote Morgan Edwards to prove the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, but I quoted him simply to show that the point you made about the Irvingites is false. Now if you wish to have a discussion on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture I believe I can explain the position more clearly and possibly help with some of the difficulties you percieve, as of yet you really have not brought forth an argument that I have not given a reasonable answer to.

 

 

Edited May 6, 2017 by Jordan Kurecki

[Jordan Kurecki]

On 05/03/2017 at 10:42 PM, Ukulelemike said:

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood..." (Rev 16:1-4)

So if the time of wrath is at the final judgment for the unsaved, what, pray tell, is happening here? No the judgment is just that: judgment. Wrath of God is righteous anger of our Almighty God, while the judgment is just that: It is pure justice and law being meted out. Those who go through His wrath will also go through His judgment.

I do not agree with your division of the tribulation period into tribulation and wrath. I don't understand how you could not consider the seals also as the wrath of God.

[Alan]

2 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

I do not agree with your division of the tribulation period into tribulation and wrath. I don't understand how you could not consider the seals also as the wrath of God.

Amen and amen!

Thank you Jordan.

From the start off the Tribulation Period in Revelation 6:1 to the Coming of Christ in Revelation 19:11, the whole seven years is a time of the judgment and the wrath of God upon the face of this entire earth. The horrific events of destruction before, and after, the mid-point is unparalleled in history.

Alan

[Eric Stahl]

On 5/5/2017 at 1:59 PM, 1Timothy115 said:

Bro. Eric, I don't believe any saved people will appear at the Great White Throne Judgement...only the lost. We can find out when we're watching it.

True we will know when it happens. I don't see any other judgment for the people who are saved in the 1000 year kingdom age.

 

[Ukulelemike]

5 hours ago, Jordan Kurecki said:

I do not agree with your division of the tribulation period into tribulation and wrath. I don't understand how you could not consider the seals also as the wrath of God.

I do it because the Bible does it, and remarkably clearly. The angels have vials containing the  wrath of God and are sent to pour out the wrath of God. It says so, right in the text. They are distinct from the trumpets. There are the trumpets when there is great tribulation on the earth, then the Son of Man sits in the clouds with a sharp sickle and reaps the earth, indicating some sort of a gathering together, like you would do with wheat, (and the saints of God are described as wheat in the gospels by Jesus), then an angel comes and gathers the harvest from the vine of the earth and casts THAT into the winepress of God's wrath. I don't know why this is so hard to see, except it disagrees with the idea that it must ALL be wrath and the church MUST have been gathered before any of it happened, even though it doesn't say anywhere that it happened. Except here.

As for the seals, the removing of seals indicates the beginning of opening something; the book did not open and the events begin until the seals were all removed-I believe these are a general overview of the entire seven years period, a table of contents, if you will, Seven seals, seven years represented, as the things that take place at various times through Revelation are seen quickly here. Including the final wrath of God and the return of Christ. Unless Jesus comes triumphantly in Rev 6, it cannot be the events happening, but the events being foretold. Revelation may not be completely linear, but it is, for the most part. Otherwise its just a jumble of stuff that makes no sense and there's no point even discussing it because it is all guess work.

[Alan]

The entire 7 years of the Tribulation period, starting from the first seal when the Anti-Christ conquers the earth, is a time of the wrath of God upon the face of the entire earth.

Revelation 6:3 & 4 continues the conquering of the entire earth by military methods by stating,"And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."

In the Bible, starting from the book of Job, and continuing to the book of Revelation, God uses the "sword" to bring His WRATH upon men to punish men, and wrack the vengeance and judgment of God on the earth. In the Tribulation period, the WRATH of God is on the entire earth and not just in a specific country, continent, or people group.

Job said, "Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that  ye may know there is a judgment." Job 19:29

Maybe (as I stated a long time back), in a different thread, by doing a study of the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets, I will bring out in minute detail that from Revelation 6:1-19:21, starting from the first seal and continuing throughout  the seven seals, the entire 7 years of the Tribulation Period,  is a time of the wrath, vengeance, judgment, and punishment of God upon the entire world.

Alan

Edited May 7, 2017 by Alan
spelling

[Ukulelemike]

29 minutes ago, Alan said:

The entire 7 years of the Tribulation period, starting from the first seal when the Anti-Christ conquers the earth, is a time of the wrath of God upon the face of the entire earth.

Revelation 6:3 & 4 continues the conquering of the entire earth by military methods by stating,"And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword."

In the Bible, starting from the book of Job, and continuing to the book of Revelation, God uses the "sword" to bring His WRATH upon men to punish men, and wrack the vengeance and judgment of God on the earth. In the Tribulation period, the WRATH of God is on the entire earth and not just in a specific country, continent, or people group.

Job said, "Be ye afraid of the sword: for wrath bringeth the punishments of the sword, that  ye may know there is a judgment." Job 19:29

Maybe (as I stated a long time back), in a different thread, by doing a study of the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets, I will bring out in minute detail that from Revelation 6:1-19:21, starting from the first seal and continuing throughout  the seven seals, the entire 7 years of the Tribulation Period,  is a time of the wrath, vengeance, judgment, and punishment of God upon the entire world.

Alan

And I would agree, except that the Bible, again, very clearly delineates when the wrath of God falls, a clear separation from the rest. Otherwise, if it was ALL wrath, why is thee a specific time and event CALLED the pouring out of God's wrath, as opposed to the rest? It says it. Right there. I mean, I am not reading anything into it-just taking it for wht it says, which is generally what IFB's are known for, yet it doesn't apply in this case. Why?

[Alan]

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, God your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." Revelation 16:1

In Revelation 16:1, the start of the judgment of the vials clearly state that the vials pour out the wrath of God; that does not preclude that the seals do not also contain the wrath of God on the earth. Nor, is Revelation 16:1 an absolute delineation of the wrath of God on the earth. Just because the word 'wrath' occurs at this juncture does not preclude 'wrath' taking place before this juncture. 

As I stated before, a minute (detailed), study of the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets will show that at the start of the 7 year Tribulation period the wrath, vengeance, punishment, and destruction of the earth commences. This a study of great magnitude, as the study in of the prophecies of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the Millennium in Revelation 20:4-7 was of great magnitude. As of the foreseeable future, I do not have the time available to go through the entire study.

The detailed study on Revelation 20:4-6 and the Old Testament prophecies, took me from June 30, 2016 to March 9, 2017, to complete. A study on Revelation chapter 6:1-19:21 would take over a year or so. For everybody's information. I am have completed a study on Revelation 1:1 to 13:18, in Chinese, at our church here on Taiwan. All of the material is in Chinese; not in English. Once I finish the study I will translate it into English. So, a through study at this time is not possible.

1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

which is generally what IFB's are known for

Brethren,

The belief of a mid-tribulation rapture, or post tribulation rapture, is not a traditional IFB belief and is of recent occurrence by individuals (Pastor Steven Anderson and Brother Kent Hovind are two well-known individuals), in the IFB churches. IFB's are generally known for the belief of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Your statement misconstrues the early, and most of the current, IFB pastors, missionaries, Bible teachers, and evangelists.

I am of the persuasion that Revelation 16:1 is taken out of context from the rest of the judgments of the 7 Year Tribulation Period as prophesied by the prophets, in order to prove one point; a mid-tribulation rapture of the church. The proponents of this argument forget the reasons for the 7 Year Tribulation Period; the judgment of God, the punishment of God, and the keeping of the church age saints from the judgment, wrath, and punishment of God on the inhabitants of the earth.

The proponents of this theory are also forgetting that the 7 year Tribulation Period is  the time of "Jacob's Trouble,' Jeremiah 30:1-9, in order to restore the nation of Israel. The 7 Year Tribulation Period has nothing to do with the church.

I am of the persuasion that Revelation 16:1 is taken out of context from the rest of the judgments of the 7 Year Tribulation Period (the seven seals), due to the unbelief that the coming of Christ occurs just before the 7 Year Tribulation Period commences.

I am confident that if the brethren personally re-studied the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets, they will discover for themselves, that the entire 7 Year Tribulation Period is a time of the wrath, judgment, vengeance, punishment on the face of the earth by Almighty God, the restoration of the nation of Israel, and the church age saints have nothing to do with this entire episode of human history.

Alan

 

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by Alan
grammer & delted further information on Anderson

[Ukulelemike]

17 hours ago, Alan said:

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, God your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth." Revelation 16:1

In Revelation 16:1, the start of the judgment of the vials clearly state that the vials pour out the wrath of God; that does not preclude that the seals do not also contain the wrath of God on the earth. Nor, is Revelation 16:1 an absolute delineation of the wrath of God on the earth. Just because the word 'wrath' occurs at this juncture does not preclude 'wrath' taking place before this juncture. 

As I stated before, a minute (detailed), study of the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets will show that at the start of the 7 year Tribulation period the wrath, vengeance, punishment, and destruction of the earth commences. This a study of great magnitude, as the study in of the prophecies of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the Millennium in Revelation 20:4-7 was of great magnitude. As of the foreseeable future, I do not have the time available to go through the entire study.

The detailed study on Revelation 20:4-6 and the Old Testament prophecies, took me from June 30, 2016 to March 9, 2017, to complete. A study on Revelation chapter 6:1-19:21 would take over a year or so. For everybody's information. I am have completed a study on Revelation 1:1 to 13:18, in Chinese, at our church here on Taiwan. All of the material is in Chinese; not in English. Once I finish the study I will translate it into English. So, a through study at this time is not possible.

Brethren,

The belief of a mid-tribulation rapture, or post tribulation rapture, is not a traditional IFB belief and is of recent occurrence by individuals (Pastor Steven Anderson and Brother Kent Hovind are two well-known individuals), in the IFB churches. IFB's are generally known for the belief of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Your statement misconstrues the early, and most of the current, IFB pastors, missionaries, Bible teachers, and evangelists.

I am of the persuasion that Revelation 16:1 is taken out of context from the rest of the judgments of the 7 Year Tribulation Period as prophesied by the prophets, in order to prove one point; a mid-tribulation rapture of the church. The proponents of this argument forget the reasons for the 7 Year Tribulation Period; the judgment of God, the punishment of God, and the keeping of the church age saints from the judgment, wrath, and punishment of God on the inhabitants of the earth.

The proponents of this theory are also forgetting that the 7 year Tribulation Period is  the time of "Jacob's Trouble,' Jeremiah 30:1-9, in order to restore the nation of Israel. The 7 Year Tribulation Period has nothing to do with the church.

I am of the persuasion that Revelation 16:1 is taken out of context from the rest of the judgments of the 7 Year Tribulation Period (the seven seals), due to the unbelief that the coming of Christ occurs just before the 7 Year Tribulation Period commences.

I am confident that if the brethren personally re-studied the prophecies of the Old Testament prophets, they will discover for themselves, that the entire 7 Year Tribulation Period is a time of the wrath, judgment, vengeance, punishment on the face of the earth by Almighty God, the restoration of the nation of Israel, and the church age saints have nothing to do with this entire episode of human history.

Alan

 

 

But it isn't just here, it is in Rev 14, as well. Again we see a delineation: Jesus, the Son of Man, sitting in the clouds, reaping HIS harvest, apparently a harvest related to wheat, we the word translated 'ripe', specifically means 'dry' or 'withered', and grains, like wheat, are generally those which are ripe and ready for harvest when dry; and wheat being one way the Lord in Matthew likens to believers, as the seed that grew among the tares, (tares look like wheat, but have so grain in the heads).  Then, the angel comes from the temple, also with a sickle, and he gathers, (notice, doesn' 'reap', which is what you do with grains, not grapes), grapes of the vine of the earth, which are also ripe, ( a different Greek word, meaning to flourish or fully mature), and THOSE, the grapes, are cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

So the question is, who are these that the Lord Jesus first reaps, before the vine of the earth is gathered? Jesus, sitting in the clouds, reaps, at the behest of the word of the angel crying with a loud voice, (the voice of an archangel??) to reap the harvest of the earth. What is being reaped? A reaping, and a gathering, one by Christ, and we don't see where that harvest goes, and then a gathering by an angel, which goes into the winepress of God's wrath.

Thus far, no one has been able to explain this. two clear harvests, one by Christ, one by an angel-one dry, like wheat, one ripened like grapes-one is gone, the other is crushed to pulp and blood.

 

[Orval]

I think in debates such as this one someone will ultimately be wrong.  here are some thoughts I have not yet read in the responses.

First many have stated the purpose of the tribulation is the pouring out of God's wrath.  While God's wrath is certainly highlighted in the tribulation period I must remind us that the tribulation is specifically to bring Israel back to God as a nation and to see them fulfill their role as missionaries in all the world.

Secondly, the idea of a midtrib rapture fails to deal with one major concern and that is the sealing by the Holy Spirit, the sealing of the Holy Spirit is specifically protection from God's wrath and though there may be other spiritual things associated with the sealing the primary purpose is to keep or protect us from the wrath of God.  Primarily only the reformed believe the church will go through the wrath of God.  Consider the 144,000 who are sealed and ask why are they sealed?  To protect them from the wrath of God.  I personally believe that our sealing is the very reason we are exempt from the tribulation period and must be removed prior to God's judgment.  Does this sound familiar, i.e. the flood and Sodom and Gomorrah?  Being removed from the wrath to come.     

[Ronda]

2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Thus far, no one has been able to explain this. two clear harvests, one by Christ, one by an angel-one dry, like wheat, one ripened like grapes-one is gone, the other is crushed to pulp and blood.

Actually, I do believe SEVERAL of the brethren here HAVE explained this previously. You don't accept their explanation, you don't even HAVE TO accept their explanation either. But for you to say "no one has been able to explain this" is not a true statement.

The TRIBULATION SAINTS are clearly those whom the Lord gathers into the Millennial kingdom.

Whereas those who are pressed into the wine-press are the unbelievers. Rev.14:9-10 gives further specifications: "...  If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,  The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God..."
Joel 3 gives even more specifications, verse 11-13 calls them  "the heathens" who are gathered into the winepress. Joel 3 also gives specific AFTER-results as well:

(v.17) "So shall ye know that I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more."

(Just a note and a QUESTION here: In a past conversation, I believe you (brother UkeleleMike) said that you thought those who would enter the millennium in HUMAN bodies to procreate/repopulate the earth would be unbelievers from other nations... How do you reconcile that with Joel 3:17)???

There will be so many of them (unbelievers) that will be put into the winepress "and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs". (Rev.14:20). That is a LOT of blood. Approximately 200 miles wide and as tall as up to a horses bridle (which would depend on the size of the horse, but in any estimation... DEEP).

It's also interesting (to me) that the approximate distance from Bozrah (southern part of modern day Jordan) to Jerusalem is approx. 100 miles.(The valley of Jehosaphat being right outside Jerusalem, Kidron valley, according to many scholars). And then another approx. 100 miles from there to Megiddo.  Many people are likely mistaken to believe that what they CALL "Armageddon" is in Megiddo alone. I found it so interesting that the distances between Bozrah to the valley of Jehosaphat, and then to Megiddo works out to be an area of about 200 miles wide. (a thousand six hundred furlongs).

I also found this wording a compelling in study comparing Isaiah 63:1-2 with Rev.19:13.
Isaiah 63:1-2 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save."Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?" Compared with Rev. 19:13 "And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God." W

We can't lay aside the fact that when Jesus returns he will stand on the mount of Olives (Zech.14:4) which also is NOT in Megiddo. There is so much information in the OT to be considered.

There is SO MUCH old testament scripture to take into account, that it can't be summed up in one short study... it often takes years of study until the puzzle pieces 'click' into place, and the 'ah-ha' moment comes when it all makes sense. If we stay only in Revelation and Matthew (and mostly NT text) for proof texts, we are missing out on more than half of the picture. 

I'm sorry, but I do disagree with your mid-trib position. I also disagree with your position on Rev.6 being what you called an 'over-view'... in that position you would have seal judgments occurring simultaneously with either trumpet or vial judgments (or both). That seems to be rather disorderly, and taking away from God's ORDERLY sets of seven. God is not the author of confusion (1 Cor.14:33). When we look at Rev.8:1-2 we see ORDER. We see the END of the 7 seals of wrath and the COMMENCING of the 7 trumpets of wrath, so unless God's word is lying (and I do not believe it is), there is an ORDER to the events.
Rev.8:1-2
"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. ² And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

The ORDER of events in in there for a reason.

I also disagree with your thoughts that unbelievers will ENTER the millennium to procreate/repopulate the earth. I fully believe that ONLY believers will enter into the millennial kingdom on earth, those still in HUMAN (not glorified) bodies will be the ones to procreate. And I again disagree with the timing you note. There is a HUGE problem with the thought that believers would be raptured in Rev.14, and yet then enter the millennium in human form. Once a person is raptured we will have glorified bodies like Christ's own body (1 John 3:2), Those whom have already been raptured will NOT be procreating, and I also fully believe God's word when He told us we are "delivered from the wrath to come" (1 Thes.1:10) which MUST BE prior to Rev.6:17 which tells us that God's wrath IS come.