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S.T.Ranger

Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

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On ‎4‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 1:20 PM, No Nicolaitans said:

I see what you're saying, but I would slightly disagree with that. Would God show partiality to Nicodemus? Why is this account written for all to see? Was God offering regeneration only to Nicodemus?

Also, the word "ye" of John 3:7 is plural; therefore, the Lord was widening the scope from only Nicodemus to everyone.

For example...

Romans 1:7-11
7   To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
8   First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
9   For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
10   Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
11   For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

Paul is addressing "all" in Rome. In this address, he refers to the "all" as you, you all, your, and ye...showing the plurality of those words...which is one of the benefits of the King James version. You, your, ye are plural. Thee, thou, and thine are singular. So, while the Lord was addressing Nicodemus personally, he then included everyone in John 3:7...everyone must be born again (regenerated).
 

NN, just a thought to consider. Our Lord's conversation with Nicodemus continues well past verse 7 and in it please notice the context indicates our Lord was referring to the new birth in a near-future way and perhaps not as something that could happen at the time of His conversation with Nicodemus.

In verses 13 and 14 of this context our Lord references His Ascension and His Crucifixion indicating to me that He was referring to an imminent event and not of one that could occur prior to His death, burial and resurrection. The context of the whole conversation indicate Jesus is tying the New Birth directly into His Gospel and that the former was fully dependent on the latter.  Please note John 16:7. I think Bro Mike hits the nail on the head in his post.

What the ranger fella is talking about does make allot of sense to me but if anyone recalls, Bro. Markle and I have gone round and round of this same subject on at least two occasions so this thread is veja-vu to me and the reason I haven't chimed in. Here is a link (I think) to the last time this topic came up.

Ranger does come off as arrogant but to be fair, I can count on one hand the number of people on here who don't come off that way from time to time (and I am NOT one of the fingers on that hand). I do agree that it is not a good way to introduce yourself though.

Ok, chiming out.......

 

 

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1 minute ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I agree with the premise, but in my view and understanding...what the Lord is telling Nicodemus is a universal truth that applies to all (ye must be born again). Whereas, in telling the one man to go, sell all that he owns, and then follow Christ...the Lord was trying to get the man to see that though he claimed to have kept the law from his youth, he had actually not kept the law and was trying to earn salvation by works. In his simple statement, the Lord exposed his folly. 

The law wasn't given as a means of salvation; rather, it was given to show men that they were sinners in need of salvation.

 

The Lord is clear, when asked how one could obtain everlasting life, and He prescribes what the man must do. It is most reasonable to view that this is dealing with the nature of this man's sin on a personal level. Still, we don't create a doctrine out of it and go around telling people to sell all they own, follow Christ, and they will receive everlasting life. This actually came up last night on a call when I was witnessing to an Atheist customer. HE said he would see validity in Christianity when he saw someone do that, lol.

 

So I agree it is a universal truth, but so is...

 

John 3:15-18

King James Version (KJV)

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

Now, while you have posted a number of verses that show people "believed," you still have not addressed the Scripture which shows, without controversy...that not even the disciples believed in the Resurrection of Christ, both before and after He died and rose again. The Atheist I spoke with said clearly "I believe in Christ," but, his belief was centered on how men can "be good" and treat others with "respect," and care/love their neighbors. So can we say that the "belief" this fellow has constitutes the belief demanded of Christ concerning Himself?

 

I ask you, NN, who, when v. 18 is stated above by Christ...could believe in something that had not yet happened? Or can we say that one does not have to believe in the resurrection in order to be saved according to conditions of this Age under the New Covenant?

 

1 minute ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I don't deny that by any means; however, the Lord was clear that regeneration was needed prior to Pentecost. It was available, and it was offered through the Spirit...just as it is the Spirit who does the work in regeneration in the "Church Age". In my studies, I haven't seen anything that says that the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit is required for regeneration (or being born again). It is a one-time act. His indwelling (from my studies) pertains to his work in our lives after regeneration.

 

He was clear men had to believe on His death prior to His Death. Doesn't mean that anyone did, and we see from clear statements by Christ and the Gospel Writers that they did not. Again, while I recognize this argument sounds good on the surface, it cannot contradict what is made clear in the Gospels, as well as by the Apostles in the Epistles.

 

The Gospel was a Mystery not revealed in past Ages, and the Age of Law was right up unto the Cross of Christ, so we have to account the teachings respective to the Age they are found in. For example, In Luke 16 in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, Abraham does not say "They have the Gospel of Christ, let them hear that," he states "They have the Law and the Prophets, let them hear them." Christ ministered under the Law for a reason, that He might fulfill the Law.

 

1 minute ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Perhaps you may have misunderstood what I said...or more likely...I wasn't clear enough. I was saying that (in my view) sanctification is required by the indwelling Spirit, but regeneration isn't. I think we agree about sanctification (?). 

 

Which establishes a dichotomy in the Body of Christ which doesn't exist: those who are saved but not indwelt by God, and those who are. It also equates the Church, which began on Pentecost, with believers from the Old Testament. It also denies that there is a distinction between the Spirit of God being with the disciples forever, being in them, rather than with them, which is made by Christ Himself.

 

No sanctification takes place apart from the indwelling of God. One is set apart unto God by the very event of the believer being reconciled to God and immersed into God in restoration of the union man is born without, which was lost in Adam.

 

2 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

John 2:11
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

John 2:22
When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 4:39
And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did.

John 4:41
And many more believed because of his own word;

John 7:31
And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?

John 8:30
As he spake these words, many believed on him.

John 8:31
Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

John 10:42
And many believed on him there.

John 11:45
Then many of the Jews which came to Mary, and had seen the things which Jesus did, believed on him.

John 12:11
Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

John 12:42
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

 

There is no argument from me, the disciples, and many, believed on Christ within the capacity of the revelation they had received and had been and were being enlightened to. That is why they could believe Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God (which was revealed to them by God Himself), but immediately after we see Peter deny the very Gospel of Christ:

 

Matthew 16:13-18

King James Version (KJV)

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

Now the response when Christ gives one of the few teachings of the Gospel:

 

Matthew 16:20-23

King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

Peter could not understand because the Gospel of Christ, though foretold in Prophecy, and clearly stated to men by Christ HImself, was not given to men to understand yet.

 

Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

1 Corinthians 2:6-9

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

 

2 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Definitely not; however, as I've said earlier...I don't see that regeneration requires the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

The Indwelling is the very cause of Regeneration. What is new is that we receive the eternal life of God through God indwelling us on an eternal level. That is what the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is, immersion into God.

 

2 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

It's a one-time and immediate act...and would therefore be available and needed for man prior to Pentecost.

With all of that said, I think it's important to point out that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection were known in the Old Testament. However, the Israelites had become so indoctrinated into the works of the law that they couldn't see the law's purpose. The knowledge of Christ and his sacrifice was there; they just couldn't see it...

Luke 24:25-27
25   Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26   Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27   And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luke 24:44-46
44   And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45   Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46   And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Knowledge of Christ, his death, burial, and resurrection were there for them to see...

 

Doesn't mean they understood it:

 

John 20:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

 

Colossians 1:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

 

3 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

As I look at every reference you've given, and I hope you take this in the respectful way that I mean it...I still don't see that regeneration requires the indwelling Holy Spirit. I understand your concerns about the Lord speaking only to Nicodemus, but to me, it's clear that regeneration was available, needed, and offered prior to Pentecost...and it was done through the Spirit.

I reserve the right to be wrong

 

You also reserve the right to be right, lol. In fact, I would suggest we are commanded to be right, when it comes to Biblical Doctrine (Hebrews 5:10-14).

Now, on this point, what I would ask you is this: do the passages presented to you (earlier in the thread) from John 14 and 16 show that the Lord is teaching that the disciples would be eternally indwelt and that was not happening at the time of the teaching?

 

Can you really impose a concept of "born again" on people who do not believe in the Resurrection, who deny Christ, and who refuse to believe when told the Lord has risen?

 

If someone did that today, would a possibility that they were born again believers even enter your mind? Or would you view them as rejecters of Christ?

 

Once more, I will point out...

 

John 14:15-18

King James Version (KJV)

 

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

 

John 14:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

 

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

What, if not the indwelling of God, would you suggest brings about the New Birth? Show me Scripture that indicates Regeneration in any Biblical person you choose (prior to Pentecost), and show where they are "born again," which I would remind you, is synonymous with being born of God, born of the Spirit, and born from above. Then, show how one can be "born again" without being born of God.

 

Only those born of God are sons of God, and John makes it clear that this cannot be imposed prior to the Incarnation...

 

John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

...so, if one wants to argue that men could be born again, that is, born of God after the Birth of Christ, that is one thing, but, still raises the difficulty of trying to show from Scripture why it began at that point. In John 3 "born from above," which is synonymous with being born of God, is the literal translation. It is from Peter's writings that we actually see "born again." And Peter makes it clear how we are "born again:"

 

1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

 

It is a basic conclusion that if we are born again unto a living hope by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the Dead, then that makes men being born again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ prior to the Resurrection taking place an unreasonable conclusion.

Have to get going, so one more passage and another point:

 

Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What is in view when Paul makes the statement "But after the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared?"

 

Is it not that His mercy is shown by saving us? By the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost? When did that happen?

 

Last point to consider: what exactly does Paul mean by...the renewing of the Holy Ghost? While it is reasonable to view this as renewing which is effected in the life of a believer in Progressive Sanctification, I would suggest to you that this is speaking about Reconciliation. In other words, man is conceived and born out of relationship with God, not having the Spirit of God, and that relationship is renewed through the washing of regeneration, and it is the renewal of that relationship which is the cause of regneration.

 

Okay, have to go, and it looks like two more responses have come in, so not sure I should answer them at this time, as I really don't have the time. Thanks again for the participation, I am enjoying the discussion thoroughly.

 

God bless.

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, wretched said:

What the ranger fella is talking about does make allot of sense to me but if anyone recalls, Bro. Markle and I have gone round and round of this same subject on at least two occasions so this thread is veja-vu to me and the reason I haven't chimed in. Here is a link (I think) to the last time this topic came up.

 

The fact that you have even discussed this issue makes you a valuable participant in the discussion, so I would encourage you to join in. That is how we all learn, by discussing from our studies those things we feel God has shown us, and it may be that something you have studied can have great impact on any given discussion, because there may be something that you know or understand that has not been interjected into the discussion.

 

As far as coming off as arrogant, lol, sorry. That is just going to be a charge laid to anyone who has the utter gall to think they know what they're talking about.

 

;)

 

And for the record, it doesn't seem as though my approach is keeping me from meeting and interacting with the members here. So to each his own.

 

God bless.

Really do not like the merging function. Any way to dismantle that?

 

God bless.

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1 hour ago, weary warrior said:

Stop. Just ... stop. For heaven's sake, listen to yourselves.  Has anyone actually stepped back and looked at the pointless, inane basis for this "discussion" started by a complete stranger, a stranger that possesses an arrogance of the kind instrumental in destroying so many good churches today? Being doctrinally right does not put one on an automatic moral high ground. It's like Tyndale all over again. You keep feeding these guys by responding to them, because they crave attention and need to feel important.

The OP said "And to be clear, I am not asking if men were "saved" before Pentecost, I am asking if men were regenerated prior to Pentecost". Pages and pages of discussion that turns out to be regarding nothing but silly semantics and  childish word games over a basic 1st grade Bible doctrine. Because some dude walked in off the street and decided he was going to ... what? 

Where does he attend church? Does he attend church? Does he have a history of faithful service? 

Never trust a man who is "impossible to offend". Even Christ was offended. A man who is impossible to offend (look at Tyndale's posts) is a man wrapped up so tight in his own intellectualism he cares nothing for people, nor even for the actual subject he's touting itself. Think about it. Offense comes from passion, a passion for people and a passion for truth. A man with no offence is a man with no passion. These guys don't care about you, and they don't care about the truth. They care about being the one holding an intellectually superior position, and are constantly beating you over the head with it in order to maintain that superiority, if you'll stand there and let them. Again, actually step back and look at the shallowness of this subject, and compare it to all of the ...words... the OP has put into it. The same with the effort Tyndale has put into saying ,,, nothing. There is no substance. They're sucking all of the air out of the room, a man can't even breath in here any more.

 

 

More to beware is a man that ignores the Scripture presented in a Theological Discussion and jumps straight to an attack on someone. Do you suppose Christianity is not evidenced by those who discuss Theological Issues but is evidenced by spewing vitriol?

 

Address the topic if you care to join in, but if you want to attack people do it somewhere else.

 

And I would like to know what this Forum's policy is on questioning the salvation of another member.

 

God bless.

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11 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

Now, while you have posted a number of verses that show people "believed," you still have not addressed the Scripture which shows, without controversy...that not even the disciples believed in the Resurrection of Christ, both before and after He died and rose again. 

Well, actually I did cover the "after"...

58 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

 

John 2:22
When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

 

As to the "before"...

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 

The Lord seemed pretty sure that they were his...

I don't have time to address everything right now, but I wanted to address that one issue quickly. I'm at work, and I have many things going on in my family life that deserves my attention. Please forgive me.

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30 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

And for the record, it doesn't seem as though my approach is keeping me from meeting and interacting with the members here. So to each his own.

 

NP friend, I have enjoyed the conversation and you can't find a better Christian example than NN to discuss topics with.

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Wanted to quickly add...

Q. When does regeneration take place?

A. Is it not at the moment that one believes in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for the atonement for their sins?

Q. Was the "knowledge" of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ available to people before the actual events took place?

A. Yes. According to scripture, it was.

Therefore, if one believed (or believes) in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (prior to or after the fact) as the atonement for their sins, then they were/are regenerated by the Spirit since he is the one who regenerates upon belief.

2 hours ago, S.T.Ranger said:

part and parcel

May I ask if you watch (or used to watch) Les Feldick?

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10 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Well, actually I did cover the "after"...

As to the "before"...

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 

The Lord seemed pretty sure that they were his...

I don't have time to address everything right now, but I wanted to address that one issue quickly. I'm at work, and I have many things going on in my family life that deserves my attention. Please forgive me.

 

Understandable, lol, I myself have shirked my duties and will pay for it by working late, but, this is a great discussion and as I have said, I am enjoying it.

 

Two things to consider in regards to the verse you post:

1. As pointed out in the OP, we are not asking if men were "saved" prior to Pentecost, so there is the implication that I have overlooked the fact that men have always been "saved by grace through faith." The disciples being "kept" here is distinctly addressing what is contrasted, namely, that Judas was not "kept."

"Belief" is not new to the New Covenant or this Age, and belonging to God is not new. However, as pointed out already we have to distinguish between the level of progression of salvation in Scripture, and it is without question that until Christ died no man had been eternally redeemed, and no man was eternally indwelt by God. That is a pretty significant distinction, don't you think?

 

2. This does not negate the prophetic nature of Christ's teaching in regards to His return to Heaven, the sending of "another Comforter," the Spirit of Truth, the eternal indwelling distinguished from the dwelling "with" at the time of the teaching, the necessity that the believers be Baptized with the Holy Ghost, or, the simple statement of Scripture regarding the fact that not one of the disciples believed that Christ had arisen from the Grave.

 

Look again at John's Prophecy:

 

Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

 

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

Many of Christ's teachings use the imagery of wheat and chaff, wheat and tares, good trees and bad trees. Here, there are two possibilities for men, they will either be Baptized with the Holy Ghost (which John defines as Christ gathering His wheat(believers)), or they will be baptized with fire, fire being representative in most of Christ's teachings of eternal judgment.

 

The simple conclusion one is forced to make is that...it isn't happening prior to this. Christ is not at that time baptizing with the Holy Ghost or fire, it is prophetic of a future fulfillment.

 

Then we can further narrow down when Christ begins Baptizing with the Holy Ghost...

 

Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

 

The same thing is in view. John baptized with water unto repentance, under the Law, and the thing to consider is that the people who came to be baptized were publicly professing to have repented (which means they repented according to the Law, and in the capacity that the Law afforded (just as sacrifice afforded an atonement not to be equated with Christ's)). This is why John refused, and in fact rebukes the ones whose lives did not evidence repentance, thus the charge to "Bring forth fruit meet for repentance," and the imagery of bad trees being cut down in judgment, that then is related to chaff being burned up. The "unquenchable fire" speaks of Eternal Judgment and Hell.

So the primary point I would make is that we see that this, just as the teaching of John 14-16, is prophetic, which demands the conclusion that it was not taking place prior to, and not until we can identify that those events took place. And the disciples were not Baptized with the Holy Ghost until after, not many after, to be precise...Pentecost.

 

And I will say that I think you are the first one that has suggested that men can be born again apart from the eternal indwelling of God, though that is the implication of imposing regeneration into Old Testament Economies. That actually helps, because it gives me a perspective to approach the objections usually raised, as well as the proposal itself. As I said before, it creates a dichotomy among Christians in my view, and suggests someone can be a Christian (which is specific to our Age, of course) and not be eternally indwelt, or, that one can be born again and not indwelt.

 

 

God bless.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

I ask you, NN, who, when v. 18 is stated above by Christ...could believe in something that had not yet happened?

Grasping parts as I have time.

There is a major difference between head belief and heart belief. There are many things in scripture that are prophesied for the future...that haven't yet happened...but I believe will happen.

We must remember that all of the time; in which, the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness...when they saw the miracles, when they saw the signs, when they heard God's word...what was the one thing that mattered? What was the one thing that kept them separated from God?

Numbers 14:11
And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

They had the events happening right then...they had experienced them...yet they didn't BELIEVE God. 

Hebrews 3:17-19
17   But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18   And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19   So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Unbelief is the culprit...not whether events are future, now, or in the past. God's word is God's word. Christ was foretold...his sufferings, his death, and his resurrection. It doesn't matter if it was a future event. It was God's word...available to believe...or not believe.
 

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14 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Wanted to quickly add...

Q. When does regeneration take place?

A. Is it not at the moment that one believes in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for the atonement for their sins?

 

And I agree with that whole-heartedly.

 

Now...show the person that believed in the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ.

 

Then, explain the Scriptures presented that show they did not.

 

We see that here as well...

 

Luke 24:33-39

King James Version (KJV)

33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.

35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

The Creation account describes Adam as being created with a body, which has the breath of God breathed into him, at which time he becomes a living soul. IN the first century Jews' mind when one died, the spirit left the physical body. Here, the disciples...

 

...still think the Lord is dead. They think they are seeing His spirit (not His Spirit), and He convinces them that He is alive again physically.

 

 

14 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Q. Was the "knowledge" of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ available to people before the actual events took place?

A. Yes. According to scripture, it was.

 

Agreed, but, not the understanding.

59 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

1 Corinthians 2:6-9

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

58 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

John 20:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

 

Colossians 1:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

That is the singular point you need to address, in that Paul makes it clear that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery (a previously unrevealed truth). Of course the Gospel has been given to men, beginning with Genesis 3:15. However, understanding of the Gospel was not until it was given by the very Spirit Christ said the Father would send.

 

The "good news" has been available for Millennia, but until the proper context was in place it was not understood, meaning, they could believe on the Messiah but could not believe on a Messiah that had not died in their stead, and arose from the grave.

 

14 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

May I ask if you watch (or used to watch) Les Feldick?

 

Never heard of him, why? Does he teach something similar? The closest I have seen is Charles Stanley, who does make a distinction between the Ministry of the Spirit in the New Covenant and that which was performed under Old Testament Economies.

 

God bless.

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Bit of a down time right now...

When does the Holy Spirit come and indwell the believer?

Ephesians 1:13-14
13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14   Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

He comes to indwell AFTER we have believed, heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, AFTER we have believed...THEN we are sealed. THEN he becomes our inheritance.

When does regeneration happen?

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We hear the word of God. We believe and are born again by believing the word. THEN the Holy Spirit takes residence and indwells us. In my understanding, regeneration takes place prior to the Spirit's indwelling...still a work of the Spirit...but separate from his indwelling.
 

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12 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Grasping parts as I have time.

There is a major difference between head belief and heart belief. There are many things in scripture that are prophesied for the future...that haven't yet happened...but I believe will happen.

We must remember that all of the time; in which, the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness...when they saw the miracles, when they saw the signs, when they heard God's word...what was the one thing that mattered? What was the one thing that kept them separated from God?

Numbers 14:11
And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

They had the events happening right then...they had experienced them...yet they didn't BELIEVE God. 

Hebrews 3:17-19
17   But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18   And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19   So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Unbelief is the culprit...not whether events are future, now, or in the past. God's word is God's word. Christ was foretold...his sufferings, his death, and his resurrection. It doesn't matter if it was a future event. It was God's word...available to believe...or not believe.
 

 

And what the Writer of Hebrews makes clear is that they, Israel...did not believe:

 

Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

 

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

Now, here is the thing to consider on this passage: the rest afforded to Israel that is in view is the physical land of Canaan...not eternal redemption in Christ.

 

The "Gospel" they heard was not the revelation of the mystery of the Gospel of Christ, because (1) I have shown you that it was not revealed to the saints in past Ages, it was a mystery, the hidden wisdom of God, and (2)...exactly what revelation of the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ did Israel receive in the wilderness?

 

They received parable, shadow...of the good things to come. Christ is written into the Law and Levitical Service, such as the Veil which separated God from man in the Tabernacle, which represented the true means of entrance to God...Christ. And specifically, His flesh (death):

 

Hebrews 10:15-20

King James Version (KJV)

 

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

 

We know Christ did not enter the Temple when He died, and we know that it is His death by which men gain entrance to God. He is not just saying we can pray to God, he is speaking about actually coming into the presence of God, which was denied men prior to the Atonement:

 

Hebrews 9:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

 

But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

 

The link shows that the concept of the Tabernacle's "Holy of Holies" was a parable for man's entrance unto God in reality, and it was a "parable" for the time, the way into the Holiest of All (Heaven) not made manifest.

 

All of that to make the same point I have been making, which is this: we cannot equate the provision of the Old Testament Eras with the realities brought about by the establishment of the New Covenant.

 

Yes, Israel heard the Gospel, but no, their unbelief did not keep them from Rest in Christ, it kept them from the "rest" promised in the physical land.

 

And you may not have considered it before, but Moses was included in those who, because of unbelief, did not enter into His Rest. So two "rests" are in view in this passage, and it is just a consistent theme in Hebrews to contrast the Law and the New Covenant. His warning here is that lack of faith and unbelief are the reasons they did not receive the provision God promised at that time, and that is the same condition he is addressing in his Hebrew brethren. Conversion from a religion one is born and bred into, that is a significant aspect of their very heritage was tough for many Jews. The Writer uses the example of the unbelief of Israel then as analogous to unbelief among Jews now (in his day).

Did I say I was leaving? lol

 

God bless.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

That is the singular point you need to address, in that Paul makes it clear that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery (a previously unrevealed truth).

Well, depending on the "mystery" that Paul refers to, the "mysteries" are different things. Actually, I think Paul explains that it's not so much the mystery of "the Gospel of Christ" in the verse that you quoted...that mystery is...

13 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

which is Christ in you,

That's the mystery of that one instance...that Christ would dwell in believers.

18 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

Never heard of him, why?

Regarding Les Feldick...

He says "part and parcel" a lot...that's why I wondered. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

3 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

And you may not have considered it before, but Moses was included in those who, because of unbelief, did not enter into His Rest.

But why was Moses unable to enter the promised land? Was it due to unbelief, or was it due to disobedience? It wasn't that he didn't believe God; he disobeyed God.

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1 hour ago, S.T.Ranger said:

 

More to beware is a man that ignores the Scripture presented in a Theological Discussion and jumps straight to an attack on someone. Do you suppose Christianity is not evidenced by those who discuss Theological Issues but is evidenced by spewing vitriol?

 

Address the topic if you care to join in, but if you want to attack people do it somewhere else.

 

And I would like to know what this Forum's policy is on questioning the salvation of another member.

 

God bless.

Christianity is NEVER evidenced by those discussing theological issues. Words are cheap. Fruit is forever.

Vitriol then, by your definition, would be what Christ "spewed" to the Pharisees and to his own apostles, what John the Baptist "spewed" to the Pharisees, what Paul "spewed" to the churches at Corinth and Galatia, at Peter, Hymenaeus and Philetus, at Alexander the coppersmith, at many others. Men who point out unpleasant, hard truth are always accused of vitriol.

I am addressing the topic, just not in the manner you wish to dictate. And you surely havent been here long enough to tell people to where to go and where to stay.

And I'm pretty sure I never questioned your salvation, I believe I just asked what your testimony was. Never seen a saved man get defensive over his salvation testimony. I have no reason to doubt yours. Just would like to hear it.

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27 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

Now...show the person that believed in the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ.

I can't show that, but neither can you show me that no one didn't. However, the scriptures make it clear that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection were foretold.

I showed verses that people believed on Christ before his death, burial, and resurrection. Did they know the prophecies of his death, burial, and resurrection? I don't know; the scriptures don't say. What they do say is that they believed on him. Christ said that he that believeth in me shall never die...and that was before his death, burial, and resurrection.

I showed the verse that they believed after he rose again. 

When one trusts Christ as their Savior, they become a new creature. I believe that applied to before and after his death, burial, and resurrection. When someone puts their faith in Christ, it changes them...or changed them. They are/were no longer depending on any works, sacrifice, or religion to save them...they were depending on Christ.

I really do have to go now...and as always...I reserve the right to be wrong.

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8 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Bit of a down time right now...

When does the Holy Spirit come and indwell the believer?

Ephesians 1:13-14
13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14   Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

He comes to indwell AFTER we have believed, heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, AFTER we have believed...THEN we are sealed. THEN he becomes our inheritance.

When does regeneration happen?

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We hear the word of God. We believe and are born again by believing the word. THEN the Holy Spirit takes residence and indwells us. In my understanding, regeneration takes place prior to the Spirit's indwelling...still a work of the Spirit...but separate from his indwelling.
 

 

Great, you have down time at work and I need to get to work, lol.

 

Ok, so what you are saying is that regeneration can occur and one not be indwelt of God?

The problem with that which I see is that regeneration is a result of those who are born of God, which makes them sons of God, which equates to New Covenant salvation. In other words, we do not have separate times when we are born of God, born again, born from of above, or born of the Spirit. That is simultaneous with regeneration, and is the reason why we are made new. We become something we once were not, namely...the children of God.

 

Now, I do agree that we believe prior to salvation, and as explained in earlier posts, this is caused by the Ministry of the Holy Ghost in the Ministry Christ teaches He will perform when He is sent (John 16:7-9). He enlightens the natural man to the truth, and when men yield they are born of God which is the result of men being placed into eternal union with God Himself. Baptism with the Holy Ghost is one being immersed into God. And that is the point Christ makes here:

 

John 14:20-23

King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

Now, two questions only:

 

1. Is this speaking of what will happen at a future date...or not?

 

2. Is it taking place then?

 

Because if we say that men are born of God already, we have the problem of what to do with John 1:11-13, and many various prophetic teachings that show it begins no sooner than the Incarnation.

 

And if we conclude men are born of God, how is it that they are not one with Him? The answer is that it is the Sacrifice of Christ, the very Work of the Cross that we are born again by:

 

1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

 

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

 

And I might point out that this...

 

20 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

When does the Holy Spirit come and indwell the believer?

Ephesians 1:13-14
13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14   Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

He comes to indwell AFTER we have believed, heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, AFTER we have believed...THEN we are sealed. THEN he becomes our inheritance.

 

...is very true. So what we would have to conclude is that men can be born again but not saved, whereas I am pointing out that men can be "saved" (from an eternal perspective" but not born again.

 

The new birth is a result of the Reconciliation Christ came to make available to all of mankind. When men are reconciled with God, which is what Christ is speaking about when He says...

 

John 14:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

 

...then are they the sons of God, born of God, born from above, born again.

 

Here is another contrast between the physical provision afforded the Age of Law...

 

John 6:47-51

King James Version (KJV)

 

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

 

A few points to consider in this passage:

 

1. The provision given men under the Law did not provide eternal life;

2. Moses was of the "fathers" that ate of that bread (manna);

3. The Living Bread is Christ, and we know when He "came down from Heaven," He is speaking of the Incarnation;

4. The Living Bread is defined by Christ as His giving of His flesh, or in other words, as the New Testament testifies over and over, His death in the stead of man.

 

Now look at Peter;s statement again:

 

1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

 

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

 

Moses did not, at any time, receive eternal life through Christ. The reason is because the Son of GOd had not yet come from Heaven, had not given His flesh (died on the Cross), and had not risen from the dead, that men might believe on Christ.

 

We simply have to make that distinction, and if we do, we will see that the New Testament makes quite a bit of sense. For example, understanding that the New Covenant would usher in a new Age, and that the Redemption Christ would bring was still yet future for the disciples, we can better understand passages such as John 15, where those who teach loss of salvation use this teaching to show that if Christians do not "abide in Christ" they lose their salvation. If we understand the Lord is speaking of what is going to happen after His Death, Burial, and REsurrection, then we can understand this in a perspective not afforded to the disciples, and understand that the Lord is telling them to remain faithful...afterwords.

 

The simple fact is that we have a hard time seeing disciples who the Lord Himself said would abandon Him...abiding in Christ.

 

The one question few people ask in regards to the teaching of the True Vine, is "What is the Vine that is not true?" The answer is...Israel. They are a vine planted by God (taken from Egypt and planted in Canaan, the "Rest" in view in Hebrews 3-4). What the Lord is say is "Do not any longer count your heritage to be the means of relationship with God, but that I am your means of relationship with God."

 

Just give it some thought. There are numerous passages that for most are hard to understand, but, if we understand the magnitude of what Christ accomplished on the Cross and in His Resurrection, and the significance of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ now being revealed, our joy in our salvation is increased tenfold. At least it has for me, lol.

 

Okay, going to try to get off here, unles there is a short one I might answer, but really have to get going, so if you could refrain from a response for just a little bit, I'll head on out, lol.

 

God bless.

 

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23 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

Christianity is NEVER evidenced by those discussing theological issues.

 

That is all I need to hear from you.

 

It may be that your lack of diligence in understanding the Word of God explains your tendency towards hostility for people you do not know, your assumptive slander, and your attempt to disrupt what is a pretty good Theological Discussion so far.

 

Consider the words of the Writer of Hebrews:

 

Hebrews 5:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

If you would care to look at other passages that command believers to actually understand the faith they profess, let me know. I may start a thread for you. Until then, this is a thread that looks at the question "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost." If you take the time to read a few of the posts, you might see that it is actually an interesting topic. One which believers disagree about, but one in which only one side can give multiple Biblical Supports for.

 

Its not arrogance to be persuaded on a Doctrinal issue, particularly when Scriptural support is given. And your idea that "faithful attendance in a church somewhere is a good evidence of salvation is preposterous. Many Tares will have a good record of attendance when they hear "Depart from Me...for I never knew you."

 

Where in the world you come up with the idea that somehow someone who comes to a Christian Doctrinal Debate Forum and actually discusses and debates Christian Doctrine must have their salvation questioned is beyond me. What type of church do you go to, by the way? Is this the attitude they teach there? Do they teach derision of Doctrine and the discussion of Doctrine?

 

Why don't you address the question? You seem to think you're an authority around here, so be a Biblical Christian and give an answer to the man that asketh you. Surely you can show why the question is a stupid one.

 

God bless.

 

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21 hours ago, Invicta said:

I cannot see there can be any view but this.

 
Quote

  22 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

After this, which was before Pentecost, people could be born again/regenerated. There is no difference, both happen simultaneously, despite what Calvinism says.

 

WOAH! Amen bro!
Edited by heartstrings

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22 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I can't show that, but neither can you show me that no one didn't. However, the scriptures make it clear that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection were foretold.

I showed verses that people believed on Christ before his death, burial, and resurrection. Did they know the prophecies of his death, burial, and resurrection? I don't know; the scriptures don't say. What they do say is that they believed on him. Christ said that he that believeth in me shall never die...and that was before his death, burial, and resurrection.

I showed the verse that they believed after he rose again. 

When one trusts Christ as their Savior, they become a new creature. I believe that applied to before and after his death, burial, and resurrection. When someone puts their faith in Christ, it changes them...or changed them. They are/were no longer depending on any works, sacrifice, or religion to save them...they were depending on Christ.

I really do have to go now...and as always...I reserve the right to be wrong.

 

I have actually shown that men were not born again, lol, because it is impossible to make a case that men who do not believe on Christ are born again. It is impossible to show that the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ was revealed prior to this Age. It is impossible to equate belief in Christ as the Messiah with belief in His Resurrection. Muslims believe Christ was the Messiah.

 

I agree with your statement:

When one trusts Christ as their Savior, they become a new creature.

But we look at how Christ is the Savior, and that deals specifically with His Incarnation, His death, His Resurrection, and one turning to Him based on faith that He died in their place. None of the discipels understood that, and could not understand it, because it was not given to them to understand.

 

So at this point just explain these passages (which relate to this simple truth (that the Gospel of Christ was not revealed in past Ages)):

 

Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

1 Corinthians 2:6-9

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

Colossians 1:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

We simply cannot impose something into the Old Testament that wasn't there. And it is the understanding, the revelation of the mystery I speak of. The Gospel was not understood by them as we now understand it in a New Covenant context. They could not, for example, understand Isaiah 53 as we do. If they had, then Peter would not have rebuked Christ for presenting the Gospel, or tried to keep Christ from the Cross with a word, or denied he even knew Christ when his own physical life was threatened.

 

If you can overlook those issues and still be convinced that Peter was a Born Again Christian prior to Pentecost, okay. I understand that. Most people believe that. But, at the least, address these three Scriptures which make it clear that the Gospel of Christ was a mystery not revealed in past Ages, but is now made manifest to the Saints.

 

And again, I appreciate all the participation.

 

God bless.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Well, depending on the "mystery" that Paul refers to, the "mysteries" are different things. Actually, I think Paul explains that it's not so much the mystery of "the Gospel of Christ" in the verse that you quoted...that mystery is...

That's the mystery of that one instance...that Christ would dwell in believers.

Regarding Les Feldick...

He says "part and parcel" a lot...that's why I wondered. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

But why was Moses unable to enter the promised land? Was it due to unbelief, or was it due to disobedience? It wasn't that he didn't believe God; he disobeyed God.

 

Last post, I promise, and it will address each statement in order:

 

1. I pointed out Gentile Inclusion was the primary focus, but that does not negate the fact that it was not revealed to the Sints in the past. This depsite the fact that Gentile Inclusion was, just like the Gospel of Christ, spoken of in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament):

 

Isaiah 42

King James Version (KJV)

 

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

 

We also see the Promise of the New Covenant in the Abrahamic Covenant, which extends to Gentiles as well as to literal descendants of Abraham:

 

Genesis 12

King James Version (KJV)

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

We know the Seed in view is Christ, yet Christ was for the benefit of all mankind. So why is it that Israel did not get it? The answer is that it was simply a mystery not revealed to them as it has been to us. That is why before Pentecost the disciple returned to their former lives and after...they preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and turned the world upside down.

 

2. Are you suggesting Christ has always been "in" believers, and it is just a matter that it was kept a secret? John 14 would disagree with that. It is clear that the indwelling of Christ was a future event (as well as the indwelling of the Father and Holy Spirit).

 

3. Shoot, thought maybe you were telling me about someone else that gets it right (That's humor, NN< not arrogance, just yanking your chain).

 

4. Disobedience and unbelief are inextricably linked in Scripture. The single greatest sin spoken of in Scripture is disobedience, which is a result of unbelief. The sin is defined in Hebrews 3 as unbelief. The sin was disobedience. In the case of Moses, he lost his right to enter into that rest because he struck the rock rather than speak to it as he was commanded. Obedience for those in positions of leadership is far more serious with far more serious repercussions when transgressed.

 

God bless.

 

 

 

Edited by S.T.Ranger

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"The Word", the "son of God", which was "in the beginning" is "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world". When the "fullness of time was come"  "the Word"  "became flesh". And the Bible says "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become "the sons of God". All of the believers, listed in Genesis 5, were "sons of God" and were so called in Genesis 6. Men had begun to "call upon the name of the Lord" back in Genesis 4. So yeah, I believe men were "born of God" aka "born again" way before Pentecost.

Rom 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

Genesis 4: 25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. 26And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

 

Gen 6:2

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Jhn 1:12

But as many as received him, (the Word)to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13

 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

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2 hours ago, S.T.Ranger said:

And again, I appreciate all the participation.

Mr. S.T.Ranger (stranger ?),

My apologies. After careful consideration, I'll be dropping out of this discussion/debate.

A few years ago, I gave up debating. I originally intended for my first response in this thread to be my only input.

I'm aware of all of the different mysteries revealed to Paul. It seems that you base your view on regeneration can only happen through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Despite all that you've provided, I still don't see it. I'll hang my hat on John 3 for now; however, I'll also consider all you've said (and Wretched's input). I can't say my belief will change, because I'm confident in where I stand, but...

I reserve the right to be wrong.

Have a good evening.

 

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2 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Mr. S.T.Ranger (stranger ?),

 

You got it, lol. I also go by Pilgrim on some forums (strangers and pilgrims).

 

2 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

 

My apologies. After careful consideration, I'll be dropping out of this discussion/debate.

A few years ago, I gave up debating. I originally intended for my first response in this thread to be my only input.

 

Sorry to see you go, NN, you've been a great participant.

 

2 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I'm aware of all of the different mysteries revealed to Paul. It seems that you base your view on regeneration can only happen through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Despite all that you've provided, I still don't see it. I'll hang my hat on John 3 for now; however, I'll also consider all you've said (and Wretched's input). I can't say my belief will change, because I'm confident in where I stand, but...

I reserve the right to be wrong.

Have a good evening.

 

That's good enough for me. If someone will simply keep the things we have discussed in mind when they read the New Testament I am confident that eventually it will click.

 

It's just been one of my favorite topics for years, beginning with the time I was telling someone they had to be born again and the Lord seemed to ask me "...do you know what that means?" And I had to stop and say, "No, to be honest...I don't."

 

So just give it some thought. Out of the many people I have discussed and debated this with it is usually about 5% that do not react negatively to the idea that men were not born again before Pentecost.

 

So just want to leave you with one thing as a focus in our discussion, that you might ponder it sometimes: you have asserted your belief that men can be born again without being eternally indwelt, so, that means we must define being born again as something not connected to Eternal Salvation. The reason is this: no man received eternal redemption of eternal life until the True and Living Bread came down from Heaven, and that is not really something one can debate, for this is precisely what Christ taught.

 

The question is, are you okay with that kind of regeneration?

 

Again, you've been great, NN, and sorry to see you leave.

 

God bless.

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"It may be that your lack of diligence in understanding the Word of God explains your tendency towards hostility for people you do not know, your assumptive slander, and your attempt to disrupt..."

 

Whoa, there. Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they don't understand the word of God.   We don't make those kind of accusations here. 

 As a newcomer, it would behoove you to pay attention to established members when they seek to give you guidance for how we do things here.   For them to give you some gentle guidance, and have you threw it back in their faces,  reflects rather poorly on you.

Since, as I said earlier, I think this is an argument about semantics, I'm not following the subject matter here very closely. I am making no judgements as to who is 'right'.   However, as this topic  seems to have come to a standstill, and its originator  appears to be combative, I'm going to shut it down to prevent this debate turning into a fight. 

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On 4/27/2017 at 4:01 PM, DaveW said:

So you are saying nobody was saved before this verse?

Yes, that is what I am saying. To be 'saved', it was necessary for Jesus Christ to die and be resurrected for sin to be fully atoned for. The righteous before this died and waited for Him in Paradise, but could not ascend to glory because the price for sin had not yet been paid. After Jesus died He went and preached to the spirits in prison, and on their faith in Him, they were taken to glory.

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