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Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?


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Wanted to quickly add...

Q. When does regeneration take place?

A. Is it not at the moment that one believes in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for the atonement for their sins?

Q. Was the "knowledge" of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ available to people before the actual events took place?

A. Yes. According to scripture, it was.

Therefore, if one believed (or believes) in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (prior to or after the fact) as the atonement for their sins, then they were/are regenerated by the Spirit since he is the one who regenerates upon belief.

2 hours ago, S.T.Ranger said:

part and parcel

May I ask if you watch (or used to watch) Les Feldick?

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10 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Well, actually I did cover the "after"...

As to the "before"...

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
 

The Lord seemed pretty sure that they were his...

I don't have time to address everything right now, but I wanted to address that one issue quickly. I'm at work, and I have many things going on in my family life that deserves my attention. Please forgive me.

 

Understandable, lol, I myself have shirked my duties and will pay for it by working late, but, this is a great discussion and as I have said, I am enjoying it.

 

Two things to consider in regards to the verse you post:

1. As pointed out in the OP, we are not asking if men were "saved" prior to Pentecost, so there is the implication that I have overlooked the fact that men have always been "saved by grace through faith." The disciples being "kept" here is distinctly addressing what is contrasted, namely, that Judas was not "kept."

"Belief" is not new to the New Covenant or this Age, and belonging to God is not new. However, as pointed out already we have to distinguish between the level of progression of salvation in Scripture, and it is without question that until Christ died no man had been eternally redeemed, and no man was eternally indwelt by God. That is a pretty significant distinction, don't you think?

 

2. This does not negate the prophetic nature of Christ's teaching in regards to His return to Heaven, the sending of "another Comforter," the Spirit of Truth, the eternal indwelling distinguished from the dwelling "with" at the time of the teaching, the necessity that the believers be Baptized with the Holy Ghost, or, the simple statement of Scripture regarding the fact that not one of the disciples believed that Christ had arisen from the Grave.

 

Look again at John's Prophecy:

 

Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

 

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

 

Many of Christ's teachings use the imagery of wheat and chaff, wheat and tares, good trees and bad trees. Here, there are two possibilities for men, they will either be Baptized with the Holy Ghost (which John defines as Christ gathering His wheat(believers)), or they will be baptized with fire, fire being representative in most of Christ's teachings of eternal judgment.

 

The simple conclusion one is forced to make is that...it isn't happening prior to this. Christ is not at that time baptizing with the Holy Ghost or fire, it is prophetic of a future fulfillment.

 

Then we can further narrow down when Christ begins Baptizing with the Holy Ghost...

 

Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

 

The same thing is in view. John baptized with water unto repentance, under the Law, and the thing to consider is that the people who came to be baptized were publicly professing to have repented (which means they repented according to the Law, and in the capacity that the Law afforded (just as sacrifice afforded an atonement not to be equated with Christ's)). This is why John refused, and in fact rebukes the ones whose lives did not evidence repentance, thus the charge to "Bring forth fruit meet for repentance," and the imagery of bad trees being cut down in judgment, that then is related to chaff being burned up. The "unquenchable fire" speaks of Eternal Judgment and Hell.

So the primary point I would make is that we see that this, just as the teaching of John 14-16, is prophetic, which demands the conclusion that it was not taking place prior to, and not until we can identify that those events took place. And the disciples were not Baptized with the Holy Ghost until after, not many after, to be precise...Pentecost.

 

And I will say that I think you are the first one that has suggested that men can be born again apart from the eternal indwelling of God, though that is the implication of imposing regeneration into Old Testament Economies. That actually helps, because it gives me a perspective to approach the objections usually raised, as well as the proposal itself. As I said before, it creates a dichotomy among Christians in my view, and suggests someone can be a Christian (which is specific to our Age, of course) and not be eternally indwelt, or, that one can be born again and not indwelt.

 

 

God bless.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

I ask you, NN, who, when v. 18 is stated above by Christ...could believe in something that had not yet happened?

Grasping parts as I have time.

There is a major difference between head belief and heart belief. There are many things in scripture that are prophesied for the future...that haven't yet happened...but I believe will happen.

We must remember that all of the time; in which, the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness...when they saw the miracles, when they saw the signs, when they heard God's word...what was the one thing that mattered? What was the one thing that kept them separated from God?

Numbers 14:11
And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

They had the events happening right then...they had experienced them...yet they didn't BELIEVE God. 

Hebrews 3:17-19
17   But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18   And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19   So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Unbelief is the culprit...not whether events are future, now, or in the past. God's word is God's word. Christ was foretold...his sufferings, his death, and his resurrection. It doesn't matter if it was a future event. It was God's word...available to believe...or not believe.
 

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14 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Wanted to quickly add...

Q. When does regeneration take place?

A. Is it not at the moment that one believes in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ for the atonement for their sins?

 

And I agree with that whole-heartedly.

 

Now...show the person that believed in the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ.

 

Then, explain the Scriptures presented that show they did not.

 

We see that here as well...

 

Luke 24:33-39

King James Version (KJV)

33 And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,

34 Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.

35 And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

The Creation account describes Adam as being created with a body, which has the breath of God breathed into him, at which time he becomes a living soul. IN the first century Jews' mind when one died, the spirit left the physical body. Here, the disciples...

 

...still think the Lord is dead. They think they are seeing His spirit (not His Spirit), and He convinces them that He is alive again physically.

 

 

14 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Q. Was the "knowledge" of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ available to people before the actual events took place?

A. Yes. According to scripture, it was.

 

Agreed, but, not the understanding.

59 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

1 Corinthians 2:6-9

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

58 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

John 20:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

 

Colossians 1:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

That is the singular point you need to address, in that Paul makes it clear that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery (a previously unrevealed truth). Of course the Gospel has been given to men, beginning with Genesis 3:15. However, understanding of the Gospel was not until it was given by the very Spirit Christ said the Father would send.

 

The "good news" has been available for Millennia, but until the proper context was in place it was not understood, meaning, they could believe on the Messiah but could not believe on a Messiah that had not died in their stead, and arose from the grave.

 

14 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

May I ask if you watch (or used to watch) Les Feldick?

 

Never heard of him, why? Does he teach something similar? The closest I have seen is Charles Stanley, who does make a distinction between the Ministry of the Spirit in the New Covenant and that which was performed under Old Testament Economies.

 

God bless.

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Bit of a down time right now...

When does the Holy Spirit come and indwell the believer?

Ephesians 1:13-14
13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14   Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

He comes to indwell AFTER we have believed, heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, AFTER we have believed...THEN we are sealed. THEN he becomes our inheritance.

When does regeneration happen?

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We hear the word of God. We believe and are born again by believing the word. THEN the Holy Spirit takes residence and indwells us. In my understanding, regeneration takes place prior to the Spirit's indwelling...still a work of the Spirit...but separate from his indwelling.
 

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12 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Grasping parts as I have time.

There is a major difference between head belief and heart belief. There are many things in scripture that are prophesied for the future...that haven't yet happened...but I believe will happen.

We must remember that all of the time; in which, the children of Israel wandered in the wilderness...when they saw the miracles, when they saw the signs, when they heard God's word...what was the one thing that mattered? What was the one thing that kept them separated from God?

Numbers 14:11
And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

They had the events happening right then...they had experienced them...yet they didn't BELIEVE God. 

Hebrews 3:17-19
17   But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18   And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19   So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Unbelief is the culprit...not whether events are future, now, or in the past. God's word is God's word. Christ was foretold...his sufferings, his death, and his resurrection. It doesn't matter if it was a future event. It was God's word...available to believe...or not believe.
 

 

And what the Writer of Hebrews makes clear is that they, Israel...did not believe:

 

Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

 

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

 

Now, here is the thing to consider on this passage: the rest afforded to Israel that is in view is the physical land of Canaan...not eternal redemption in Christ.

 

The "Gospel" they heard was not the revelation of the mystery of the Gospel of Christ, because (1) I have shown you that it was not revealed to the saints in past Ages, it was a mystery, the hidden wisdom of God, and (2)...exactly what revelation of the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ did Israel receive in the wilderness?

 

They received parable, shadow...of the good things to come. Christ is written into the Law and Levitical Service, such as the Veil which separated God from man in the Tabernacle, which represented the true means of entrance to God...Christ. And specifically, His flesh (death):

 

Hebrews 10:15-20

King James Version (KJV)

 

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

 

We know Christ did not enter the Temple when He died, and we know that it is His death by which men gain entrance to God. He is not just saying we can pray to God, he is speaking about actually coming into the presence of God, which was denied men prior to the Atonement:

 

Hebrews 9:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

 

But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

 

The link shows that the concept of the Tabernacle's "Holy of Holies" was a parable for man's entrance unto God in reality, and it was a "parable" for the time, the way into the Holiest of All (Heaven) not made manifest.

 

All of that to make the same point I have been making, which is this: we cannot equate the provision of the Old Testament Eras with the realities brought about by the establishment of the New Covenant.

 

Yes, Israel heard the Gospel, but no, their unbelief did not keep them from Rest in Christ, it kept them from the "rest" promised in the physical land.

 

And you may not have considered it before, but Moses was included in those who, because of unbelief, did not enter into His Rest. So two "rests" are in view in this passage, and it is just a consistent theme in Hebrews to contrast the Law and the New Covenant. His warning here is that lack of faith and unbelief are the reasons they did not receive the provision God promised at that time, and that is the same condition he is addressing in his Hebrew brethren. Conversion from a religion one is born and bred into, that is a significant aspect of their very heritage was tough for many Jews. The Writer uses the example of the unbelief of Israel then as analogous to unbelief among Jews now (in his day).

Did I say I was leaving? lol

 

God bless.

 

 

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12 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

That is the singular point you need to address, in that Paul makes it clear that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery (a previously unrevealed truth).

Well, depending on the "mystery" that Paul refers to, the "mysteries" are different things. Actually, I think Paul explains that it's not so much the mystery of "the Gospel of Christ" in the verse that you quoted...that mystery is...

13 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

which is Christ in you,

That's the mystery of that one instance...that Christ would dwell in believers.

18 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

Never heard of him, why?

Regarding Les Feldick...

He says "part and parcel" a lot...that's why I wondered. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

3 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

And you may not have considered it before, but Moses was included in those who, because of unbelief, did not enter into His Rest.

But why was Moses unable to enter the promised land? Was it due to unbelief, or was it due to disobedience? It wasn't that he didn't believe God; he disobeyed God.

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1 hour ago, S.T.Ranger said:

 

More to beware is a man that ignores the Scripture presented in a Theological Discussion and jumps straight to an attack on someone. Do you suppose Christianity is not evidenced by those who discuss Theological Issues but is evidenced by spewing vitriol?

 

Address the topic if you care to join in, but if you want to attack people do it somewhere else.

 

And I would like to know what this Forum's policy is on questioning the salvation of another member.

 

God bless.

Christianity is NEVER evidenced by those discussing theological issues. Words are cheap. Fruit is forever.

Vitriol then, by your definition, would be what Christ "spewed" to the Pharisees and to his own apostles, what John the Baptist "spewed" to the Pharisees, what Paul "spewed" to the churches at Corinth and Galatia, at Peter, Hymenaeus and Philetus, at Alexander the coppersmith, at many others. Men who point out unpleasant, hard truth are always accused of vitriol.

I am addressing the topic, just not in the manner you wish to dictate. And you surely havent been here long enough to tell people to where to go and where to stay.

And I'm pretty sure I never questioned your salvation, I believe I just asked what your testimony was. Never seen a saved man get defensive over his salvation testimony. I have no reason to doubt yours. Just would like to hear it.

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27 minutes ago, S.T.Ranger said:

Now...show the person that believed in the death, burial, and Resurrection of Christ.

I can't show that, but neither can you show me that no one didn't. However, the scriptures make it clear that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection were foretold.

I showed verses that people believed on Christ before his death, burial, and resurrection. Did they know the prophecies of his death, burial, and resurrection? I don't know; the scriptures don't say. What they do say is that they believed on him. Christ said that he that believeth in me shall never die...and that was before his death, burial, and resurrection.

I showed the verse that they believed after he rose again. 

When one trusts Christ as their Savior, they become a new creature. I believe that applied to before and after his death, burial, and resurrection. When someone puts their faith in Christ, it changes them...or changed them. They are/were no longer depending on any works, sacrifice, or religion to save them...they were depending on Christ.

I really do have to go now...and as always...I reserve the right to be wrong.

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8 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Bit of a down time right now...

When does the Holy Spirit come and indwell the believer?

Ephesians 1:13-14
13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14   Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

He comes to indwell AFTER we have believed, heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, AFTER we have believed...THEN we are sealed. THEN he becomes our inheritance.

When does regeneration happen?

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We hear the word of God. We believe and are born again by believing the word. THEN the Holy Spirit takes residence and indwells us. In my understanding, regeneration takes place prior to the Spirit's indwelling...still a work of the Spirit...but separate from his indwelling.
 

 

Great, you have down time at work and I need to get to work, lol.

 

Ok, so what you are saying is that regeneration can occur and one not be indwelt of God?

The problem with that which I see is that regeneration is a result of those who are born of God, which makes them sons of God, which equates to New Covenant salvation. In other words, we do not have separate times when we are born of God, born again, born from of above, or born of the Spirit. That is simultaneous with regeneration, and is the reason why we are made new. We become something we once were not, namely...the children of God.

 

Now, I do agree that we believe prior to salvation, and as explained in earlier posts, this is caused by the Ministry of the Holy Ghost in the Ministry Christ teaches He will perform when He is sent (John 16:7-9). He enlightens the natural man to the truth, and when men yield they are born of God which is the result of men being placed into eternal union with God Himself. Baptism with the Holy Ghost is one being immersed into God. And that is the point Christ makes here:

 

John 14:20-23

King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

 

Now, two questions only:

 

1. Is this speaking of what will happen at a future date...or not?

 

2. Is it taking place then?

 

Because if we say that men are born of God already, we have the problem of what to do with John 1:11-13, and many various prophetic teachings that show it begins no sooner than the Incarnation.

 

And if we conclude men are born of God, how is it that they are not one with Him? The answer is that it is the Sacrifice of Christ, the very Work of the Cross that we are born again by:

 

1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

 

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

 

And I might point out that this...

 

20 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

When does the Holy Spirit come and indwell the believer?

Ephesians 1:13-14
13   In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14   Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

He comes to indwell AFTER we have believed, heard the word of truth, the gospel of our salvation, AFTER we have believed...THEN we are sealed. THEN he becomes our inheritance.

 

...is very true. So what we would have to conclude is that men can be born again but not saved, whereas I am pointing out that men can be "saved" (from an eternal perspective" but not born again.

 

The new birth is a result of the Reconciliation Christ came to make available to all of mankind. When men are reconciled with God, which is what Christ is speaking about when He says...

 

John 14:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

 

...then are they the sons of God, born of God, born from above, born again.

 

Here is another contrast between the physical provision afforded the Age of Law...

 

John 6:47-51

King James Version (KJV)

 

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

 

A few points to consider in this passage:

 

1. The provision given men under the Law did not provide eternal life;

2. Moses was of the "fathers" that ate of that bread (manna);

3. The Living Bread is Christ, and we know when He "came down from Heaven," He is speaking of the Incarnation;

4. The Living Bread is defined by Christ as His giving of His flesh, or in other words, as the New Testament testifies over and over, His death in the stead of man.

 

Now look at Peter;s statement again:

 

1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

 

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

 

 

Moses did not, at any time, receive eternal life through Christ. The reason is because the Son of GOd had not yet come from Heaven, had not given His flesh (died on the Cross), and had not risen from the dead, that men might believe on Christ.

 

We simply have to make that distinction, and if we do, we will see that the New Testament makes quite a bit of sense. For example, understanding that the New Covenant would usher in a new Age, and that the Redemption Christ would bring was still yet future for the disciples, we can better understand passages such as John 15, where those who teach loss of salvation use this teaching to show that if Christians do not "abide in Christ" they lose their salvation. If we understand the Lord is speaking of what is going to happen after His Death, Burial, and REsurrection, then we can understand this in a perspective not afforded to the disciples, and understand that the Lord is telling them to remain faithful...afterwords.

 

The simple fact is that we have a hard time seeing disciples who the Lord Himself said would abandon Him...abiding in Christ.

 

The one question few people ask in regards to the teaching of the True Vine, is "What is the Vine that is not true?" The answer is...Israel. They are a vine planted by God (taken from Egypt and planted in Canaan, the "Rest" in view in Hebrews 3-4). What the Lord is say is "Do not any longer count your heritage to be the means of relationship with God, but that I am your means of relationship with God."

 

Just give it some thought. There are numerous passages that for most are hard to understand, but, if we understand the magnitude of what Christ accomplished on the Cross and in His Resurrection, and the significance of the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ now being revealed, our joy in our salvation is increased tenfold. At least it has for me, lol.

 

Okay, going to try to get off here, unles there is a short one I might answer, but really have to get going, so if you could refrain from a response for just a little bit, I'll head on out, lol.

 

God bless.

 

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23 minutes ago, weary warrior said:

Christianity is NEVER evidenced by those discussing theological issues.

 

That is all I need to hear from you.

 

It may be that your lack of diligence in understanding the Word of God explains your tendency towards hostility for people you do not know, your assumptive slander, and your attempt to disrupt what is a pretty good Theological Discussion so far.

 

Consider the words of the Writer of Hebrews:

 

Hebrews 5:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

 

If you would care to look at other passages that command believers to actually understand the faith they profess, let me know. I may start a thread for you. Until then, this is a thread that looks at the question "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost." If you take the time to read a few of the posts, you might see that it is actually an interesting topic. One which believers disagree about, but one in which only one side can give multiple Biblical Supports for.

 

Its not arrogance to be persuaded on a Doctrinal issue, particularly when Scriptural support is given. And your idea that "faithful attendance in a church somewhere is a good evidence of salvation is preposterous. Many Tares will have a good record of attendance when they hear "Depart from Me...for I never knew you."

 

Where in the world you come up with the idea that somehow someone who comes to a Christian Doctrinal Debate Forum and actually discusses and debates Christian Doctrine must have their salvation questioned is beyond me. What type of church do you go to, by the way? Is this the attitude they teach there? Do they teach derision of Doctrine and the discussion of Doctrine?

 

Why don't you address the question? You seem to think you're an authority around here, so be a Biblical Christian and give an answer to the man that asketh you. Surely you can show why the question is a stupid one.

 

God bless.

 

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21 hours ago, Invicta said:

I cannot see there can be any view but this.

 
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  22 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

After this, which was before Pentecost, people could be born again/regenerated. There is no difference, both happen simultaneously, despite what Calvinism says.

 

WOAH! Amen bro!
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22 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

I can't show that, but neither can you show me that no one didn't. However, the scriptures make it clear that Christ's death, burial, and resurrection were foretold.

I showed verses that people believed on Christ before his death, burial, and resurrection. Did they know the prophecies of his death, burial, and resurrection? I don't know; the scriptures don't say. What they do say is that they believed on him. Christ said that he that believeth in me shall never die...and that was before his death, burial, and resurrection.

I showed the verse that they believed after he rose again. 

When one trusts Christ as their Savior, they become a new creature. I believe that applied to before and after his death, burial, and resurrection. When someone puts their faith in Christ, it changes them...or changed them. They are/were no longer depending on any works, sacrifice, or religion to save them...they were depending on Christ.

I really do have to go now...and as always...I reserve the right to be wrong.

 

I have actually shown that men were not born again, lol, because it is impossible to make a case that men who do not believe on Christ are born again. It is impossible to show that the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ was revealed prior to this Age. It is impossible to equate belief in Christ as the Messiah with belief in His Resurrection. Muslims believe Christ was the Messiah.

 

I agree with your statement:

When one trusts Christ as their Savior, they become a new creature.

But we look at how Christ is the Savior, and that deals specifically with His Incarnation, His death, His Resurrection, and one turning to Him based on faith that He died in their place. None of the discipels understood that, and could not understand it, because it was not given to them to understand.

 

So at this point just explain these passages (which relate to this simple truth (that the Gospel of Christ was not revealed in past Ages)):

 

Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

1 Corinthians 2:6-9

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

Colossians 1:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

We simply cannot impose something into the Old Testament that wasn't there. And it is the understanding, the revelation of the mystery I speak of. The Gospel was not understood by them as we now understand it in a New Covenant context. They could not, for example, understand Isaiah 53 as we do. If they had, then Peter would not have rebuked Christ for presenting the Gospel, or tried to keep Christ from the Cross with a word, or denied he even knew Christ when his own physical life was threatened.

 

If you can overlook those issues and still be convinced that Peter was a Born Again Christian prior to Pentecost, okay. I understand that. Most people believe that. But, at the least, address these three Scriptures which make it clear that the Gospel of Christ was a mystery not revealed in past Ages, but is now made manifest to the Saints.

 

And again, I appreciate all the participation.

 

God bless.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Well, depending on the "mystery" that Paul refers to, the "mysteries" are different things. Actually, I think Paul explains that it's not so much the mystery of "the Gospel of Christ" in the verse that you quoted...that mystery is...

That's the mystery of that one instance...that Christ would dwell in believers.

Regarding Les Feldick...

He says "part and parcel" a lot...that's why I wondered. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

But why was Moses unable to enter the promised land? Was it due to unbelief, or was it due to disobedience? It wasn't that he didn't believe God; he disobeyed God.

 

Last post, I promise, and it will address each statement in order:

 

1. I pointed out Gentile Inclusion was the primary focus, but that does not negate the fact that it was not revealed to the Sints in the past. This depsite the fact that Gentile Inclusion was, just like the Gospel of Christ, spoken of in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament):

 

Isaiah 42

King James Version (KJV)

 

1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.

3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.

4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

 

We also see the Promise of the New Covenant in the Abrahamic Covenant, which extends to Gentiles as well as to literal descendants of Abraham:

 

Genesis 12

King James Version (KJV)

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

 

We know the Seed in view is Christ, yet Christ was for the benefit of all mankind. So why is it that Israel did not get it? The answer is that it was simply a mystery not revealed to them as it has been to us. That is why before Pentecost the disciple returned to their former lives and after...they preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and turned the world upside down.

 

2. Are you suggesting Christ has always been "in" believers, and it is just a matter that it was kept a secret? John 14 would disagree with that. It is clear that the indwelling of Christ was a future event (as well as the indwelling of the Father and Holy Spirit).

 

3. Shoot, thought maybe you were telling me about someone else that gets it right (That's humor, NN< not arrogance, just yanking your chain).

 

4. Disobedience and unbelief are inextricably linked in Scripture. The single greatest sin spoken of in Scripture is disobedience, which is a result of unbelief. The sin is defined in Hebrews 3 as unbelief. The sin was disobedience. In the case of Moses, he lost his right to enter into that rest because he struck the rock rather than speak to it as he was commanded. Obedience for those in positions of leadership is far more serious with far more serious repercussions when transgressed.

 

God bless.

 

 

 

Edited by S.T.Ranger
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"The Word", the "son of God", which was "in the beginning" is "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world". When the "fullness of time was come"  "the Word"  "became flesh". And the Bible says "as many as received him, to them gave he power to become "the sons of God". All of the believers, listed in Genesis 5, were "sons of God" and were so called in Genesis 6. Men had begun to "call upon the name of the Lord" back in Genesis 4. So yeah, I believe men were "born of God" aka "born again" way before Pentecost.

Rom 10:13

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

Genesis 4: 25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew. 26And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

 

Gen 6:2

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Jhn 1:12

But as many as received him, (the Word)to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13

 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
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